New Garrett GTX2867r

[codyace]

While not disagreeing with the gate 'venting' capability, I think some initial drop can be solved with adjustment of the boost controller too. I notice if I have it really soft it will 'loose some steam' sort to speak down low when it vents all exhaust energy, whilst when having a lot of gain built in, it prevents that from happening.

[inopsey]

the boost drop on wastegate opening is less than a quarter psi but if you are looking at a mechanical gauge you can see it drop and spike a tiny bit as the gate operates. im also running 100 gain

[codyace]

I was expecting you to say you were loosing 1-2 psi for a split second...

I'd almost say loosing a quarter of a PSI is is probably attributed to the boost controller stepper motor functioning in general, and nothing more then that.

[huffandpuff00]

flange was welded and is now out for coating...

[codyace]

[di-devol]

So good!

msglngth

[codyace]

Everythings ready to go. Gonna weld the 90* bend on the compressor housing tomorrow, tack weld the outlet stud nuts and hopefully put it all back together late tomorrow.

[cured13]

I like the idea of less visible (more OEM) setup,
wouldn't be easier and cheaper to just weld the flange on Garret exhaust housing?

[jr_ss]

Wait! Cody, did you purchase the GTX version? I must have missed that somewhere... Here's mine strapped to the RWD VVL. It's an old picture, motor is in the car now.

[Def]

Originally Posted by codyace

Ugh, please bellmouth that inlet lip. Bish looks all frumpy with its fat lip sticking out there. Seriously Garrett, we're talking a few seconds extra machine time to clean up the edges of stuff.

[codyace]

Well, initially impressions are pretty good. Turbo is MUCH louder than the old one in terms of turbo noise (my inner ricer is happy about that).

So far only got on it off the gate pressure (12psi). Seems to run really well. Didn't really abuse it yet, as tonight was more of a shakedown cruise more than anything (aka: make sure nothing falls off that I put back on hah)


I'm thinking tomorrow I may crank the whick a little

[codyace]

Originally Posted by Def

Ugh, please bellmouth that inlet lip. Bish looks all frumpy with its fat lip sticking out there. Seriously Garrett, we're talking a few seconds extra machine time to clean up the edges of stuff.

'pointy elbows'

It is amazing the things that are sometimes overlooked for sure when it comes to what even I'd say is an easy machine process.

[inopsey]

Originally Posted by codyace

Well, initially impressions are pretty good. Turbo is MUCH louder than the old one in terms of turbo noise (my inner ricer is happy about that).

So far only got on it off the gate pressure (12psi). Seems to run really well. Didn't really abuse it yet, as tonight was more of a shakedown cruise more than anything (aka: make sure nothing falls off that I put back on hah)


I'm thinking tomorrow I may crank the whick a little

did you keep the custom oem manifold with ext gate or are you using the .72 turbine housing with the 44mm gate?

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by codyace

Well, initially impressions are pretty good. Turbo is MUCH louder than the old one in terms of turbo noise (my inner ricer is happy about that).

So far only got on it off the gate pressure (12psi). Seems to run really well. Didn't really abuse it yet, as tonight was more of a shakedown cruise more than anything (aka: make sure nothing falls off that I put back on hah)


I'm thinking tomorrow I may crank the whick a little

Awesome. I can't wait to see your dyno results but my wallet on the other hand is scared of what you might show me! I've been itching to get one of these...

Btw, what's your opinion of the 2863 vs the 2867. Seems like the 63 will be pretty much equivalent to the old 71 in power output (or slightly lower) but have much better response where as the 67 will beat the 71 in power while having a little better response. Do you think 400whp is achievable on a pump gas and a 63 with proper supporting mods? Off the top of my head I believe the flow rates are 43/45/47 lbs/min for the 63/71/67 respectively so it's all very close.

[huffandpuff00]

Originally Posted by cured13

I like the idea of less visible (more OEM) setup,
wouldn't be easier and cheaper to just weld the flange on Garret exhaust housing?

Im not sure if it is wide enough. Ill get the .72 back from coating soon and look at them both to see if it is be possible.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by inopsey

did you keep the custom oem manifold with ext gate or are you using the .72 turbine housing with the 44mm gate?

Same stock manifold, same .64 exhaust side, but now with an MVS 38mm gate.

Originally Posted by huffandpuff00

Im not sure if it is wide enough. Ill get the .72 back from coating soon and look at them both to see if it is be possible.

I don't think it would be wide enough either. The ATP housings have more meat and are cast differently in that area to accept the flange part. While it may not be impossible, I just don't know if I'd attept as that flapper wheel and area is all very close.

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

Awesome. I can't wait to see your dyno results but my wallet on the other hand is scared of what you might show me! I've been itching to get one of these...

Trust me when I say, I hope it works too. Trust me when I say if this doesn't work as well as I'm hoping that I'll be seeing how accurate I am with an M16 again...been almost a year since getting out, I hope I still have it

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

Btw, what's your opinion of the 2863 vs the 2867. Seems like the 63 will be pretty much equivalent to the old 71 in power output (or slightly lower) but have much better response where as the 67 will beat the 71 in power while having a little better response. Do you think 400whp is achievable on a pump gas and a 63 with proper supporting mods? Off the top of my head I believe the flow rates are 43/45/47 lbs/min for the 63/71/67 respectively so it's all very close.

While capable of 43 lb/min, when you look at the compressor map you'll see that it is not very efficient at the top end, or with a lot of boost...so I'd rate it very similar to the old trusty 28RS...but with a little quicker response and a tad more top end. If you're looking for anything over 350ish whp I'd still say 2871 or GTX2867 as both support the top end ability, more boost, and can safely flow the air needed to make 400+. The nice thing about the GTX2867 is that it allows more headroom for boost (and power)...not that I need more but how cool would a 425-450 (again, just in theory) car be that has full spool before 4000 rpm? I'd have a hard time going V8 with such an option IMO (and I love V8's)

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by codyace

Trust me when I say, I hope it works too. Trust me when I say if this doesn't work as well as I'm hoping that I'll be seeing how accurate I am with an M16 again...been almost a year since getting out, I hope I still have it



While capable of 43 lb/min, when you look at the compressor map you'll see that it is not very efficient at the top end, or with a lot of boost...so I'd rate it very similar to the old trusty 28RS...but with a little quicker response and a tad more top end. If you're looking for anything over 350ish whp I'd still say 2871 or GTX2867 as both support the top end ability, more boost, and can safely flow the air needed to make 400+. The nice thing about the GTX2867 is that it allows more headroom for boost (and power)...not that I need more but how cool would a 425-450 (again, just in theory) car be that has full spool before 4000 rpm? I'd have a hard time going V8 with such an option IMO (and I love V8's)

NO, don't shoot it! Give it to me

And really? Only a little more top end compared to a 28rs?
I was thinking otherwise from compressor maps I've seen like this:


Seems like there's quite a bit more up top from that crude map.

I just now found this link too:
CLICK

These guys are expecting to get close to 400whp at 23psi and already got 359whp out of 19.9psi. Boost came on almost as quick as stock and all this without a boost controller too. However they do have a compression advantage.

I'm not liking how their torque falls off though.

[cotbu]

you first need to know where you land on the map, then which way your going. You don't just move straight up!

[codyace]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

N
These guys are expecting to get close to 400whp at 23psi and already got 359whp out of 19.9psi. Boost came on almost as quick as stock and all this without a boost controller too. However they do have a compression advantage.

I'm not liking how their torque falls off though.

Well, as much as I hate to be debby downer, but we made 360 at 17/18 psi on a 28RS, on a Sentra...And made similar power with 18 psi on a RWD DET. Both cars were running Rom Tunes (Sentra JWT, 240 Enthalpy)...

I know I know, dyno racing is dyno racing...but it is what it is.

Now for the rest of the answer read below:

Originally Posted by cotbu

you first need to know where you land on the map, then which way your going. You don't just move straight up!

100%. For LuckyX2, (and this is VERY generic so none of you coolguys get too worked up over this) you need to remember that the X axis determines airflow (and total HP ability) while the Y axis determines boost ability. Sure you may be able to run 20+ PSI and still be on the chart, you will not be making any more total HP.

So while the 28RS is really maxing out at the 350-360 hp range (sure you could make more, at the expense of heat), the 2863 does seem to allow 400whp at moderate boost....but again, the 2871r does the same thing (albiet at less cost). When you overlay the 63 vs 67 you'll see that the 67 obviously supports more airflow without running out of steam, as well as still having that airflow ability with more boost.

Are the differences much over the 2871r? So far I think so...the car really comes into boost nicer...so while the graph of power over RPM may not be drastic, I can assure you that the graph over time will be a lot nicer. It just stinks that it's hard to compare graphs over time on a consistant basis.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by codyace

100%. For LuckyX2, (and this is VERY generic so none of you coolguys get too worked up over this) you need to remember that the X axis determines airflow (and total HP ability) while the Y axis determines boost ability. Sure you may be able to run 20+ PSI and still be on the chart, you will not be making any more total HP.

So while the 28RS is really maxing out at the 350-360 hp range (sure you could make more, at the expense of heat), the 2863 does seem to allow 400whp at moderate boost....but again, the 2871r does the same thing (albiet at less cost). When you overlay the 63 vs 67 you'll see that the 67 obviously supports more airflow without running out of steam, as well as still having that airflow ability with more boost.

Are the differences much over the 2871r? So far I think so...the car really comes into boost nicer...so while the graph of power over RPM may not be drastic, I can assure you that the graph over time will be a lot nicer. It just stinks that it's hard to compare graphs over time on a consistant basis.

I think what you said there about the 63 being capable of 400whp if pushed is what I was getting at. It should be similar in power output to a 71 (slightly less) but with a 8mm smaller turbine wheel so obviously more responsive. I'm in no way doubting that the 67 will flow much more and am in 100% agreement with you on that; I just was wondering how far behind the 63 would be in power and how far ahead it would be in response when compared to a 67.

The way I see it is that in terms of power it goes 63<71<67 and it terms of response it would be 71<67<63. So the 67 is better all around when compared to the 71 and a great turbo but I think I'm more concerned with response and only looking for 375-400whp so the 63 may be the one for me.

I'm guessing 450whp or so for the 67 and 400whp or so for the 63 but only time will tell for sure. I'm anxious to see what you do with the 67 and what R/T tuning does with the 63.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

It should be similar in power output to a 71 (slightly less) but with a 8mm smaller turbine wheel so obviously more responsive.

While I think it was a typo on your end, for everyone else just note that it is 8mm smaller compresosr wheel. With that considered though you need to remember that the 28RS was a 60mm wheel, but it was an older design. These new billet 11 blade wheels should (in all aspects) be lighter and more efficient so i'd say the 63 wheel should spool close to the 28RS (maybe even a smidge sooner), and the 67 (so far) seems to spool near the old 28RS just off the gate. I'm sure with the boost controller things will change though.

Again though, these differences are hard to measure over an RPM graph though...over time is where these really show their differences. Heck my good buddies 28RS car and mine are almost similar...but night and day difference with timeframe and response.

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

only looking for 375-400whp so the 63 may be the one for me.

I'd say if you're set on the GTX series and 400 whp top end, that the 63 would be the way to go too.

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

I'm guessing 450whp or so for the 67 and 400whp or so for the 63 but only time will tell for sure. I'm anxious to see what you do with the 67 and what R/T tuning does with the 63.

I hope the 67 sees 400whp, but now there is the other piece of the puzzle that I may need to address. Sure the S3's worked well with the 2871, but I'm curious as to if S4's work BETTER with the 2867. Hard to say.

The other thing i need to sit down and play with are cam gears...I've been reluctant for no other reason than lazyness.

[LuckyX2]

Oh yeah, wrong wheel...

Good point with the cams. These new GTX's just keep going and going up top judging by the maps. So it seems, like you're saying, that they'd benefit from the extra duration the S4's bring. I wonder what that would do for the bottom end tho.

And yeah, cam gears are a pain, especially the JWT ones like I (and I think you) have. They're superior since they'll never slip but they're sure a pain to adjust.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

Oh yeah, wrong wheel...

Good point with the cams. These new GTX's just keep going and going up top judging by the maps. So it seems, like you're saying, that they'd benefit from the extra duration the S4's bring. I wonder what that would do for the bottom end tho.

It'll be a tough call either way with the cams...I mean I think both will work, it's just a matter of what really works best. The more I think about it, the more I still think the S3's are the better choice, as they help light the turbo faster.


No 20 psi tonight. I ended up working at the fab shop afterwork tonight so by the time I left there I just wanted to get home and relax...I'm anxiously awaiting cranking the power haha.

And yeah, cam gears are a pain, especially the JWT ones like I (and I think you) have. They're superior since they'll never slip but they're sure a pain to adjust.

I had them on initially, and sold them. I'm thinking about getting two sets...a slider style set for the dyno (which I'll sell) and then a fixed position one (Like the JWT or CustomSteel) for the rest of the time.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by codyace

No 20 psi tonight. I ended up working at the fab shop afterwork tonight so by the time I left there I just wanted to get home and relax...I'm anxiously awaiting cranking the power haha.

What are you gonna do about tuning this once you turn it up? Certainly your 2871 tune will be "good enough" but also there must be some more horses to unlock with a re-tune. There's also the concern that you'll be running lean with the extra air the 2867 flows.

Gonna send it to JWT after the initial dyno run and have it tweaked?

[codyace]

I'm going to log it for sure, but I don't see it needing a retune. That's the beauty of a well setup ROM based ECU...and a MAF setup It adjusts accordingly and works well regardless. Sure I may be able to squeak some more out, but I think it'll be just fine. I'll be the first to report back if it isn't though...If It does need a retune I'll certainly be going to a 4 bar fuel setup and increasing the dwell times on the LS packs and cranking the boost.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by codyace

I'm going to log it for sure, but I don't see it needing a retune. That's the beauty of a well setup ROM based ECU...and a MAF setup It adjusts accordingly and works well regardless. Sure I may be able to squeak some more out, but I think it'll be just fine. I'll be the first to report back if it isn't though...If It does need a retune I'll certainly be going to a 4 bar fuel setup and increasing the dwell times on the LS packs and cranking the boost.

Oh, nice! I wasn't aware the rom tunes adjusted like that. I knew they did closed loop idle stuff but I wasn't aware it adjusted under boost. Good to know.

What dwell time are you running now and what would you be turning it up to? I have the LS2 truck coils and I'm running 5ms dwell currently.

[codyace]

3.5 IIRC they are set at...which in theory should be more than plenty, buttttttt

And yes, this is why I'm such a fan of the Rom based MAF cars...very resilent to changes, they don't run like shit when the weather drastically changes, you can change turbos, boost levels...as long as you're in the relm/range of the MAF that is. I'm currently at 4.8 (iirc) V so I'm about maxing out the Cobra MAF...I'd say a few more HP and it should be it.

[HIGHFIVEBETA]

What ROM tune are you running and how do you adjust dwell? Sorry if im not digging back enough but im at work

[codyace]

Originally Posted by HIGHFIVEBETA

What ROM tune are you running and how do you adjust dwell? Sorry if im not digging back enough but im at work

I'm running a Jim Wolf Technology ECU. Clark adjusts the Dwell settings on the tune and then sends you a new chip.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by codyace

3.5 IIRC they are set at...which in theory should be more than plenty, buttttttt

And yes, this is why I'm such a fan of the Rom based MAF cars...very resilent to changes, they don't run like shit when the weather drastically changes, you can change turbos, boost levels...as long as you're in the relm/range of the MAF that is. I'm currently at 4.8 (iirc) V so I'm about maxing out the Cobra MAF...I'd say a few more HP and it should be it.

I set mine to 5ms off of the recommendation here: Megasquirt Sequencer Coils
Think that's too much?

And that adaptivity is nice. I have air/coolant temp corrections set on my haltech so I don't really have to worry about weather changes but still, pretty cool. It's definitely more work having a standalone and having to touch up on things all time and I'm sure JWT does a better job of tuning than me haha but I love tinkering with it so it's all good