My instructor on track day broke off my front bumper :( - Page 3 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

jacobzking · 05-16-2012, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rag

ALL drivers that participate in motorsports MUST be well aware of the risks to you and your vehicle.

Suck it it because you need to pay to play in any motorsport.

lol, you must be 16. you're clearly missing the point that the track coordinator (who supplies the instructors) made me let the instructor drive my car. the instructor clearly doesn't have enough experience to be instructing on wet surfaces is he can't get my car around the track one time without taking it off the track. this didn't have to do with me or my driving.

its easy to use some stupid cliche about paying to play, but you've offered no real advice. i wasn't "playing," the instructor was.

fatduece · 05-16-2012, 02:57 PM

So if I wanted to get into hpd, I would have to let the instructor drive my car?Thats terrible. Its not like they driven every car in the world and know how they all react. If we have to let them drive our cars, could we at least tell them to take it easy? Though that will probably upset them, since they cant abuse a car they dont even own.

jacobzking · 05-16-2012, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatduece

So if I wanted to get into hpd, I would have to let the instructor drive my car?Thats terrible. Its not like they driven every car in the world and know how they all react. If we have to let them drive our cars, could we at least tell them to take it easy? Though that will probably upset them, since they cant abuse a car they dont even own.

thats how it is out here. i wouldn't worry to much about it happening to you. like i said before, the chief instructor who has done HPDEs for 19 years has never in 19 years seen this happen... because it shouldn't. there's no real reason why the guy should have wrecked my car other than he was being careless.

so with that said, if you want to go do HPDEs... go do it and don't worry about this happening. it can, but its VERY unlikely.

as far as him not knowing how the car drives, that's really not an excuse. for the most car, FF cars drive like FF cars. FR cars drive like FR cars, MR cars drive like MR cars... for the most part.

normally instructors won't have any problem getting behind the wheel of just about anything with 4 wheels.

but I do like the advice someone here gave me... tell the instructor "you brake it, you buy it" up front so its not an issue. they may disagree right away though, and if its a track policy that they have to let the instructor drive... then make the decision whether or not to participate. they are their for their own personal gain: free track time, free experience, free hamburger. they should have some responsibility.

0wn3r · 05-16-2012, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatduece

So if I wanted to get into hpd, I would have to let the instructor drive my car?Thats terrible. Its not like they driven every car in the world and know how they all react. If we have to let them drive our cars, could we at least tell them to take it easy? Though that will probably upset them, since they cant abuse a car they dont even own.

For HPDEs they shouldn't be abusing the car at all. The point is to drive the car and show you the line you can take with the general setup of your car. Some will even say they drive it only ~75%, but that's assuming he/she knows where it is in relation to the 100%. If you let them beat on it, then they will. If it's mandatory and you're not comfortable, say so. Say you want him/her to show you the line and take it easy.

Of course, there's other things besides the experience of the instructor that could have come into play that may have caused the accident as well (water, oil/fluids, car setup, tires, etc. etc.)

codyace · 05-16-2012, 11:01 PM

As they say in our drivers meetings 'Even Mario Andretti Crashes'

I know it sucks he went off with your car, but at the end of the day it's not (at least sounding) like he was being negligent with the car. Does it suck he banged a bumper up? Sure...but to be offered 2 free track days and *only* have it being a bumper...I'd consider that a 'small price to pay' after having seen many cars crash up big time on track, both on the instructor/HPDE level and race level.

I personally would not expect a dime from the instructor. I'd accept anything he may help put toward your car, in the grand scheme of things you knew the rules and accepted the potential risk. Again, it's not like he meant to loop it.

jacobzking · 05-16-2012, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0wn3r

For HPDEs they shouldn't be abusing the car at all. The point is to drive the car and show you the line you can take with the general setup of your car. Some will even say they drive it only ~75%, but that's assuming he/she knows where it is in relation to the 100%.

i think that's how I feel. this wasn't a race, or even timing laps... he was simply supposed to be showing me the line and got carried away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by codyace

I know it sucks he went off with your car, but at the end of the day it's not (at least sounding) like he was being negligent with the car...

I personally would not expect a dime from the instructor. I'd accept anything he may help put toward your car, in the grand scheme of things you knew the rules and accepted the potential risk. Again, it's not like he meant to loop it.

Its been resolved. The track is basically paying for the actual bumper (in free track time), and the instructor and I are splitting the cost of getting it painted.

I think Own3r nailed it though. There was no reason for him to have crashed, no reason for him to be driving as aggressively as he was... on a wet track... on a car he wasn't familiar with... 30 seconds after I told him the tires were very slick on wet tracks... None of the other instructors OR drivers wrecked that day.

I'm just happy that I was able to work something out that he and I agreed on as being fair. I think he knew he made a mistake and offered to pay right away. I think that if I had asked him to pay the entire amount in cash, he would have. But I wouldn't have felt right about doing that.

davidpham · 05-17-2012, 12:59 AM

ziptie the bumper! and call it a day

kikcaffine · 05-17-2012, 07:35 AM

Maybe it would be more prudent next time to get a stock-ish looking bumper made of urethane incase something like this happens again to have as a "track" bumper.

jacobzking · 05-17-2012, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kikcaffine

Maybe it would be more prudent next time to get a stock-ish looking bumper made of urethane incase something like this happens again to have as a "track" bumper.

yeah. theres a guy locally selling the us oem bumper with lip for $300. i've also considered the JDM bumper/lip combo.

who else makes urethane bumpers?

fckillerbee · 05-17-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kikcaffine

Maybe it would be more prudent next time to get a stock-ish looking bumper made of urethane incase something like this happens again to have as a "track" bumper.

why are people idiots.

this is a road course. not drift event. The chief instructor said it's never happened in 19 YEARS!.

I'm sure he wont expect it to happen again...

shinhed · 05-17-2012, 04:31 PM

The instructor did you a favor. Fuck fiberglass.

jdm213 · 05-18-2012, 12:29 AM

honestly things happen and drifting isnt perfect and ur cryng for a bumper that i can find for you for like 60 bux right here on the forums and give it to a mexican so he can paint it for a 6 pack of corona .. there done deal

jacobzking · 05-18-2012, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdm213

honestly things happen and drifting isnt perfect and ur cryng for a bumper that i can find for you for like 60 bux right here on the forums and give it to a mexican so he can paint it for a 6 pack of corona .. there done deal

you're a dumbass. its been mentioned about a dozen times or more that it was NOT drifting!!!

and if you can get a replacement bumper to me in TX for $60 then I'll take back the dumbass comment. but seeing how shipping is more than $60 by itself... i kind of doubt it.

Csomme · 05-18-2012, 09:15 AM

Holy shit people are retarded. I'm glad you got it sorted out. I kind of think that the thread was dumb, because a bumper isn't that big of a deal, but it was entertaining, and I agree with your POV Jacob.

Def · 05-18-2012, 09:09 PM

What club was this with?

It is common in TX to have instructors drive the car for a couple of laps at the beginning of the day at a low speed without helmets for green students. It should be at low speed, but that said, the old track at MSR-C (which it looks like the OP was driving on) is *HORRIBLE* in the wet. Think about the slickest surface you've ever driven around, then make it twice as slick. In the wet my lap times are 3-4x lower than in the dry (on some tracks that only goes up by about 0.2-0.4x).

Stuff like this is also why I'm a bit reluctant to instruct sometimes. It's an almost thankless job, and you work A LOT for the "free track time" that sometimes you don't even feel like "enjoying" after being slung around out there all weekend.

As for someone in their late 20's not having enough experience to instruct, I'm 30 and I've got more track experience than the vast majority of people I see at the track. If you thought his instruction was good, then I wouldn't read too much into his age.

It really sounds to me like you're trying to justify guilt tripping the instructor into giving you money even though you signed a liability waiver before ever driving into the paddock that weekend.

jacobzking · 05-18-2012, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def

What club was this with?

It is common in TX to have instructors drive the car for a couple of laps at the beginning of the day at a low speed without helmets for green students. It should be at low speed...

As for someone in their late 20's not having enough experience to instruct, I'm 30 and I've got more track experience than the vast majority of people I see at the track. If you thought his instruction was good, then I wouldn't read too much into his age.

It really sounds to me like you're trying to justify guilt tripping the instructor into giving you money even though you signed a liability waiver before ever driving into the paddock that weekend.

it was at eagles canyon and like you said, he should have been driving at low speed.

the guy offered right off the bat to pay, but i was looking for alternatives which i have come up with one.

have you ever wrecked a students car?

skyline084 · 05-19-2012, 07:03 AM

You break it, you buy it.

codyace · 05-19-2012, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def

Stuff like this is also why I'm a bit reluctant to instruct sometimes. It's an almost thankless job, and you work A LOT for the "free track time" that sometimes you don't even feel like "enjoying" after being slung around out there all weekend.

Totally agreed. I'm very content staying in Red vs Going to Black (for now)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def

It really sounds to me like you're trying to justify guilt tripping the instructor into giving you money even though you signed a liability waiver before ever driving into the paddock that weekend.

And that's kinda what I think as well. I don't know Jacobzking and he may be a stand up guy, but I (personally) would never expect an instructor to pay anything (regardless of condition) unless it was so beyond his relm (which when would an instructor ever really do something like this)

I think of it this way...lets say it was in the dry, and the guy over estimated the tires/brakes/etc ec, and the car went off and tore the bumper off...would Jacobzking still be mad? Hard to say.

In the end I think it's a situation of expecting too much from the instructor. I'm in fact jealous that they even offered free track time, as heck I've had issues that kept me from running half a day with some groups and they didn't give 2 hoots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacobzking

it was at eagles canyon and like you said, he should have been driving at low speed.
...
have you ever wrecked a students car?

Low speed or high speed, it was an accident IMO, and I wasn't there.

YES my car was looped twice (granted both by friends), one time causing the lip to get annihilated. I didn't expect them to pay anything as truthfully if they didn't do it, I would have at one point (I was new, and didn't respect HP at that point)

mr.nismo. · 05-19-2012, 09:28 AM

i get where people come from on the whole you signed a waiver blah blah blah, BUT.... if your in a car you have NEVER driven before and is NOT yours, would you go balls out the first lap or get a feel of the car first?

Def · 05-19-2012, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacobzking

it was at eagles canyon and like you said, he should have been driving at low speed.

the guy offered right off the bat to pay, but i was looking for alternatives which i have come up with one.

have you ever wrecked a students car?

So was the guy actually going balls out? I highly doubt that on the 5th corner and showing you the line. It might have felt fast, but he was probably going pretty slow and likely just got into the throttle a bit much on corner exit. It's easy to do on a turbo car in the wet if you're not used to how it responds.

I've never wrecked a student's car, but I have spun some friends cars in the wet when I was not even close to the limit in my mind (and I wasn't on 99.999% of the rest of the lap). You probably didn't even realize it, but the grip level changes DRASTICALLY on a track in wet conditions, usually going from one extreme to another in the span of a foot or so.

If he offered to pay, fine; but IMO, it was going to happen sooner rather than later with a fiberglass bumper and a low ride height.

Def · 05-19-2012, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dev71893

i get where people come from on the whole you signed a waiver blah blah blah, BUT.... if your in a car you have NEVER driven before and is NOT yours, would you go balls out the first lap or get a feel of the car first?

Driving a car on a wet track is nothing at all like driving on the street in the wet. The surface is polished smooth on many areas, and you will have to cross those while driving the wet line. The track surface also dictates how much grip it provides vs. the level of water on it. Some keep providing tons of grip in heavy rain, others fall off a huge amount from damp to dry.

Now in the dry it's pretty inexcusable to drive a student's car fast enough to spin it, but in the wet sometimes you get caught out VERY quickly.

Maybe 4-5 people in this thread have any track experience, so it's pretty tough to get any real info from all the "opinions" that are being thrown out there.

Beejis60 · 05-20-2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacobzking

bumper plaus paint is around $500 if I'm lucky and get a bumper that doesn't need a load of work. the track is giving me $300 in track time so I'm only out about $200. if the instructor pays me $150 (what he would have had to pay for track time if he went as a non-instructor) then I'm at $450 and only out of pocket roughly $50-100.

seems fair to me.

also, knowing that the guy spent $20,000 rebuilding his porsche engine recently and lives in a swank part of town... I don't feel so bad hitting him up for $150.

Fuck that. You break it, you buy it. He owes 5 bills not 2. The track really doesn't owe you shit so it's a cool gesture I suppose, but I would want my money from that assbag.

0wn3r · 05-20-2012, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beejis60

Fuck that. You break it, you buy it. He owes 5 bills not 2. The track really doesn't owe you shit so it's a cool gesture I suppose, but I would want my money from that assbag.

Exactly how many track waivers have you signed so far?

Def · 05-20-2012, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0wn3r

Exactly how many track waivers have you signed so far?

Seriously...

I bet you guys would expect someone to pay full value for your car if they lost a brake caliper o-ring and went plowing into the back of you in a braking zone.

Don't ever take a car to the track you can't walk away from.

codyace · 05-20-2012, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0wn3r

Exactly how many track waivers have you signed so far?

LOL

As Def says, if you don't want to pay for it, or you can't afford to fix it, you shouldn't be there anyway. That applies to almost any situation in life.

With that said, I let almost 5 different people flog my car at the AutoX today. If they woulda looped it, it woulda been my fault, and I wouldn't expect anything.

240zach · 05-20-2012, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacobzking

you can't zip tie it when its broken in to pieces

bullshit you cant...watch that

Phat Sliggity :: Zipties

jacobzking · 05-20-2012, 08:20 PM

lol... that is some mighty fine zip tying. but as it says at the very beginning of the video... that typically applies to DRIFTERS. I am not a drifter. I do not drift anymore. And that bumper will NOT pass safety inspection on the track.

240zach · 05-20-2012, 08:30 PM

you say typically..

the video applys to what to do when your bumper breaks. he was drifting, doesnt mean that you cant ziptie it because you where not drifting. regardless if your drifting or driving hard shits bound to happen.

0wn3r · 05-20-2012, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codyace

As Def says, if you don't want to pay for it, or you can't afford to fix it, you shouldn't be there anyway. That applies to almost any situation in life.

That last line made me rethink ever stepping foot outside my house again lol

jacobzking · 05-20-2012, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 240zach

you say typically..

the video applys to what to do when your bumper breaks. he was drifting, doesnt mean that you cant ziptie it because you where not drifting. regardless if your drifting or driving hard shits bound to happen.

you can do whatever you want, but the bumper zip tied like that will not pass inspection and you will not be allowed on the track.

05-16-2012, 11:01 PM	#65
codyace Post Whore! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poconos, PA Age: 39 Posts: 8,030 Trader Rating: (58) Feedback Score: 58 reviews	As they say in our drivers meetings 'Even Mario Andretti Crashes' I know it sucks he went off with your car, but at the end of the day it's not (at least sounding) like he was being negligent with the car. Does it suck he banged a bumper up? Sure...but to be offered 2 free track days and only have it being a bumper...I'd consider that a 'small price to pay' after having seen many cars crash up big time on track, both on the instructor/HPDE level and race level. I personally would not expect a dime from the instructor. I'd accept anything he may help put toward your car, in the grand scheme of things you knew the rules and accepted the potential risk. Again, it's not like he meant to loop it. __________________ *Want Air Conditioning in your SR20 Swapped car? Check out www.sr20acbrackets.com for more information! Quest Alternator Conversions for SR20!* Check my Group Buy! Tired of lousy internal gates? Go external wastegate with one of my manifolds, Check out my group buy

05-17-2012, 12:59 AM	#67
davidpham Zilvia Addict Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: My House Age: 33 Posts: 762 Trader Rating: (17) Feedback Score: 17 reviews	ziptie the bumper! and call it a day __________________

05-18-2012, 09:09 PM	#75
Def Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,701 Trader Rating: (16) Feedback Score: 16 reviews	What club was this with? It is common in TX to have instructors drive the car for a couple of laps at the beginning of the day at a low speed without helmets for green students. It should be at low speed, but that said, the old track at MSR-C (which it looks like the OP was driving on) is HORRIBLE in the wet. Think about the slickest surface you've ever driven around, then make it twice as slick. In the wet my lap times are 3-4x lower than in the dry (on some tracks that only goes up by about 0.2-0.4x). Stuff like this is also why I'm a bit reluctant to instruct sometimes. It's an almost thankless job, and you work A LOT for the "free track time" that sometimes you don't even feel like "enjoying" after being slung around out there all weekend. As for someone in their late 20's not having enough experience to instruct, I'm 30 and I've got more track experience than the vast majority of people I see at the track. If you thought his instruction was good, then I wouldn't read too much into his age. It really sounds to me like you're trying to justify guilt tripping the instructor into giving you money even though you signed a liability waiver before ever driving into the paddock that weekend. __________________ S13 Hatch - Goes around tracks quickly DEFSPORT

05-16-2012, 02:57 PM	#62
fatduece Zilvia Addict Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: hoonigay Posts: 673 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	So if I wanted to get into hpd, I would have to let the instructor drive my car?Thats terrible. Its not like they driven every car in the world and know how they all react. If we have to let them drive our cars, could we at least tell them to take it easy? Though that will probably upset them, since they cant abuse a car they dont even own.

05-17-2012, 07:35 AM	#68
kikcaffine Zilvia Addict Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Marietta, Ga Posts: 713 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	Maybe it would be more prudent next time to get a stock-ish looking bumper made of urethane incase something like this happens again to have as a "track" bumper.

05-17-2012, 04:31 PM	#71
shinhed Zilvia Addict Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Austria Posts: 954 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	The instructor did you a favor. Fuck fiberglass.

05-18-2012, 12:29 AM	#72
jdm213 Zilvia Addict Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: los angeles Age: 33 Posts: 960 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	honestly things happen and drifting isnt perfect and ur cryng for a bumper that i can find for you for like 60 bux right here on the forums and give it to a mexican so he can paint it for a 6 pack of corona .. there done deal

05-18-2012, 09:15 AM	#74
Csomme Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: north carolinazzz Age: 33 Posts: 1,009 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Holy shit people are retarded. I'm glad you got it sorted out. I kind of think that the thread was dumb, because a bumper isn't that big of a deal, but it was entertaining, and I agree with your POV Jacob.

05-19-2012, 07:03 AM	#77
skyline084 Zilvia Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: NJ Posts: 195 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	You break it, you buy it.

05-19-2012, 09:28 AM	#79
mr.nismo. Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Oxnard, CA Age: 30 Posts: 1,890 Trader Rating: (31) Feedback Score: 31 reviews	i get where people come from on the whole you signed a waiver blah blah blah, BUT.... if your in a car you have NEVER driven before and is NOT yours, would you go balls out the first lap or get a feel of the car first?

05-20-2012, 08:20 PM	#87
jacobzking Zilvia Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Frisco, TX Age: 43 Posts: 288 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	lol... that is some mighty fine zip tying. but as it says at the very beginning of the video... that typically applies to DRIFTERS. I am not a drifter. I do not drift anymore. And that bumper will NOT pass safety inspection on the track.

05-20-2012, 08:30 PM	#88
240zach Zilvia Addict Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 916 Posts: 941 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	you say typically.. the video applys to what to do when your bumper breaks. he was drifting, doesnt mean that you cant ziptie it because you where not drifting. regardless if your drifting or driving hard shits bound to happen.