S13 SR20DET Weird Noises - Lifters/ Bearing/ Rods? **VIDEO**

[Dorifto Machine]

Short History: Bought a S13 SR20 Blacktop from a Zilvia member May of 2012.
Properly installed it over the last couple months. As of last month the car was running , had a high idle . Idle was corrected (Timing, TPS, IACV ) and car has been running for last couple weeks some what fine. All vitals and fluids were being checked periodically/topped off .

Problem: I noticed the water pump has been leaking out of the weap hole, so I ordered a new water pump. . During that time, this weird noise was presented intermittently after driving the car a little harder than normal (noise sounds like a door stopper being played with a rattle ) . Figured it was related to the water pump, maybe the bearings were shot or broken blade . So stopped driving it, replaced the water pump. Previous one was rusted to hell, no broken blades, no play in it, just leaky. Today , I went to crank the car and same noise is present if not louder / more consistent with also a squeaky/tick sound..
The car has oil in it and all other fluids are good.

Car is running at stock boost.
These are the specs of what the previous owner said is in the engine as far as under the valve cover;

HKS 256 cams
Rocker arm stoppers
BC valves and retainers

Here is the video of the sound. Watch from beginning to end. The noise is super evident around the 1:00 minute mark.

Video: http://youtu.be/qjcOfeW4cYc

Tomorrow, I will be opening the valve cover to check and see whats going on underneath. Maybe this will be good for anyone with a similar issue in the future.

What do you guys think it could possibly be before I tear things apart? Any suggestions?

Ive got a couple opinions from friends familiar with this motor, some saying it sounds like a lifter is bad to another saying it sounds like a rod knock or timing chain related...

Thanks for any and all help!


ISSUE FIXED 3/30/2013. Investigated and found a Loose Flywheel was the issue. Read Thread !

[codyace]

You're link doesn't work


Hard to say without hearing sound, could be a few things.

[Dorifto Machine]

Thanks Cody, My link is live now. Try again , please.
Make sure you set it to 720p for highest quality.

[Dorifto Machine]

Anyone have an idea on what the sound/issue is in the video?

[codyace]

Wow that's some racket for sure.


That sounds like it's something in the top end of the engine, or in the tensioning system for sure. I'd be pulling the valve cover to inspect for sure. Collapsed lifters don't usually sound like that.

Rod knock usually happens at a certain RPM (which can be different in each case) and is easily repeatable...your's obviously makes sounds, but it seems to varry

Here is a great video of an SR with rod knock SR20 GTiR rod knock - YouTube just to give you an idea of how it sounds.


Good luck, hopefully it's a simple procedure and not long term surgery!

[Dorifto Machine]

Here is what it looks like: From what I can tell I do not see anything broken.
Spun the crank by hand a few times and no sounds while I was doing so.

[KiLLeR2001]

Cam lobes don't look too healthy. The oil tubes are either clogged or the tiny holes that drip oil are. Also the gold baffle should be removed (since you have RAS installed) and you need a spacer on the intake side to help position it better, heres a picture of my engine right after I installed the Tomei Rocker Arm Stoppers...



Sorry its blurry but you get the idea.

edit:

Refer to this post of my build thread for more pictures...

http://zilvia.net/f/builds-builds-on...ml#post4248274

[Dorifto Machine]

Thanks Steven, I'll take note .

So after inspecting everything I decided to Prime the engine with the cover off to see whats going on with Oil....

It seems like nothing is squirting out of the oil tubes. Took them off and cleaned them / blew some air in it and I felt air come out of the holes, put them back on and still same thing. Oil comes out of of the back but not out of tubes. Again, Oil Dipstick says full. Could they still be clogged?

Video of Priming without Valve- Cover:

Faris Xero SR20DET Clear view of OIL Priming Side view - YouTube

Faris Xero SR20DET Clear View of Rear OIL Priming - YouTube

What do you guys think, Possible Weak or Bad Oil pump or something else? Never seen this before.

[cotbu]

clogged port, or misaligned cam cap. Idk why its squirting from there though with the cap on, maybe the bolt is stripped and not torqued properly. Take the last cap off on both sides there a little hole, snake something through it or blow it out with compressed air. if the bolts are stripped you do have options!

[Dorifto Machine]

Originally Posted by cotbu

clogged port, or misaligned cam cap. Idk why its squirting from there though with the cap on, maybe the bolt is stripped and not torqued properly. Take the last cap off on both sides there a little hole, snake something through it or blow it out with compressed air. if the bolts are stripped you do have options!

Good point. I will check tomorrow in the day.
When you say clogged port, the port (hole) underneath the cam cap or ports on the tube?
Also to note, I noticed when it was running their was a small chirp/squeak sound like a loose belt however it was not, I'm beginning to think it could of been because of the cams being dry.

Here is a rear shot so you can see where the oil is coming from better.

Faris Xero SR20DET Clear View of Rear OIL Priming - YouTube


Now a friend keeps suggesting the weird sound could be timing chain related, Before I dive into that are we determining this is most likely an oil problem for sure? Can someone clarify for me that indeed the oil not squirting is for sure an issue.. I was under impression oil should squirt out of the holes on the tube for sure when priming.

[codyace]

Oh man that's certainly an oil supply issue then. Take the squrters off, soak them, and blow compressed air through them to sort it out.

I still do doubt it's a rod bearing, check that top end. Also pull the tensioner out to see if it's got oil in it.

[cotbu]

Originally Posted by Dorifto Machine

Good point. I will check tomorrow in the day.
When you say clogged port, the port (hole) underneath the cam cap or ports on the tube?
Also to note, I noticed when it was running their was a small chirp/squeak sound like a loose belt however it was not, I'm beginning to think it could of been because of the cams being dry.

Here is a rear shot so you can see where the oil is coming from better.

Faris Xero SR20DET Clear View of Rear OIL Priming - YouTube


Now a friend keeps suggesting the weird sound could be timing chain related, Before I dive into that are we determining this is most likely an oil problem for sure? Can someone clarify for me that indeed the oil not squirting is for sure an issue.. I was under impression oil should squirt out of the holes on the tube for sure when priming.

The port on the cam cap, I think you don't have them torqued right, but they could be clogged or misaligned.

It's a lil hole next to the bolt hole, it runs diagonal to the bolt hole then shoots oil out of the banjo to the squirters.
The sound in the first video sounds like symptoms of loose cam bolts sort of. You have to rev yours the last time i heard that it was at idle speeds

[Dorifto Machine]

Originally Posted by codyace

Oh man that's certainly an oil supply issue then. Take the squrters off, soak them, and blow compressed air through them to sort it out.

I still do doubt it's a rod bearing, check that top end. Also pull the tensioner out to see if it's got oil in it.

Precisely, thanks. I thought the same about it not being rod related as the sound is mostly coming from the top and side of valve cover, but who knows. I will clean the oil squirter tubes up a little more intense and then see if its the same thing.

Originally Posted by cotbu

The port on the cam cap, I think you don't have them torqued right, but they could be clogged or misaligned.

It's a lil hole next to the bolt hole, it runs diagonal to the bolt hole then shoots oil out of the banjo to the squirters.
The sound in the first video sounds like symptoms of loose cam bolts sort of. You have to rev yours the last time i heard that it was at idle speeds

Roger that, I will check this in Morning and see if any screws are loose on the cam caps and such.

Also found these for torque specs :

[Dorifto Machine]

Update:
Same thing, Oil only comes out of the oil holes behind the Cam caps closest to the firewall..
Cleaned the oil tubes best I could. Soaked them in water, Sprayed Cleaner in them, Sprayed air in them. Reinstalled the oil tubes and torqued all caps to specs (none seemed super loose really). These tubes should atleast drip oil if anything!

Please anyone can chime in here. Oil Pump not providing enough pressure? I shot another video after cleaning and re-tightening just for visuals.



Video Update: Faris Xero SR20DET Oil Tubes Not Squirting - YouTube

[KiLLeR2001]

ROFL. Sorry to laugh but I wasn't expecting the oil to just burst out like that at the end!

Where exactly is the oil coming out from? It looks like the cam caps aren't tight enough and its shooting out where the cap meets the head OR that bolt is stripped. Try cleaning off those bolts and inside the holes and using red loctite. Follow the specified torque specs which is 8.7 ft/lbs final. I think when I did mine I just rounded up to 9 ft/lbs tq.

[Dorifto Machine]

Haha , I know it does sound and look weird when it burst out.

A buddy who works on SR's just informed me that it is normal for it to shoot oil from those back holes , but should also shoot from the squirts at same time . Unless their is an Oil pressure issue. Can anyone verify?

If you look its not coming from the bolt, their is a little tiny oil hole on each side that the cam cap is sitting next to but not covering .

[army240]

Maybe the camshaft clearance with the caps is not correct (maybe worn out because of oil starvation???) and it's too loose so all the oil flow goes out from there? Also, take off your tensionner and check if oil is coming out when you compress it like Codyace said... your sound could be a chain rattling somewhere in the cover because the chain is too loose.

[di-devol]

That's crazy!

Just for the hell of it, take off your RAS.

[Dorifto Machine]

Unless you guys know exactly what it looks like when it squirts oil with the valve cover off then shhh lol . I tried finding a video online with such thing and no avail.

The cam caps both sit perfect on it and the stud screws in just fine.

Here is a close view video I just filmed of where it shoots out so you know. There's an oil hole on each side...

Faris Xero SR20DET CLOSE VIEW OF OIL SQUIRTING FROM ONLY BACK OF CAM CAP - YouTube

[cotbu]

LOL it's not supposed to do that! Like i said there's a little hole on the cam cap that meet the head and oil flows up that hole through the banjo and out the squirters. For you it's not making it up through the hole to the cam cap. You can clearly see that in all your videos, but this one it's like the cap isn't even on. That hole you pointed out is clearly the issue.



Here's what you should be seeing!

[Dorifto Machine]

Right I know that. You might be getting confused, There is 2 different holes , The hole next to the cap (looks like a vent hole) is suppose to have a small flow not a burst like that. Then you have another oil hole which sits under the cap and sends oil to the Oil tube , the one your talking about (banjo ). Its definitely being blocked and shooting it out of secondary hole because it has no where to go. I have an idea of what it possibly could be. Investigating now.

Perfect! That video is exactly what I needed to see.

Thanks for your input btw.

[Dorifto Machine]

What I'm trying confirm is the type of bolt that is required to hold the banjo part of the squirters to the block. Reason why is is the bolt that is going through the banjo has no holes in it at all like a bolt would that is connected to a banjo.

Wouldn't that essentially block the passage? How is oil going to travel through the hole , then through the cam cap, and then out of the banjo bolt to the oil tube if its a solid stud?

When I took the cam caps off I only saw 2 holes.. one for each stud to hold it to the block .

Here is a picture I took of both studs that are currently going through each banjo.

[cotbu]

take off the cam cap and post picture of the bottom
i told you the, the oil travels up the little hole through the cam cap, not the bolt. So there no banjo bolt.

Right I know that. You might be getting confused, There is 2 different holes , The hole next to the cap (looks like a vent hole) is suppose to have a small flow not a burst like that.

This is the supply for the oil squirters

[Dorifto Machine]

Originally Posted by cotbu

take off the cam cap and post picture of the bottom
i told you the, the oil travels up the little hole through the cam cap, not the bolt. So there no banjo bolt.

This is the supply for the oil squirters

Ahhhh, I see what your saying now..

Here is some pictures of it...

Did he install the the cam cap in the wrong spot??. Because now that I look at it , the Cam cap closest to the Front is bigger than all the other cam caps, should that be in the cam cap spot closest to the firewall ?

Here is some pictures:

Cam Cap under OIL TUBE banjo (by itself)



Cam Cap in place, Notice how it doesn't cover the little hole



Cam Cap OFF, oil hole visible



Cam Cap Closest to timing chain, notice how its bigger

[KiLLeR2001]

Holy crap I'd be scared of that engine if the previous owner didn't even install the caps back in order...

[Dorifto Machine]

Originally Posted by KiLLeR2001

Holy crap I'd be scared of that engine if the previous owner didn't even install the caps back in order...

LOL, Steve thanks for the enlightenment, its mine now and I'm going to take care of it . hell you came over and heard it run good minus the idle issue! .

Someone rebuilt the motor, then the kid picked it up and who knows what he did. But I'm staying optimistic it sounded very healthy minus this oil issue so who knows how the hell its been running without the noise, I know the bottom end was atleast getting oil.

But holy moly, thats unfreaking believable that he would install them wrong.....

[cotbu]

Good job, now an oil change should complete your half brokenness!

Wait what about the other side?

Sent from my De-bloated, & Turbocharged SIII

[Dorifto Machine]

Originally Posted by cotbu

Good job, now an oil change should complete your half brokenness!

Wait what about the other side?

Sent from my De-bloated, & Turbocharged SIII

Thanks, I hope all goes well we shall see.


Um, both sides have small cam caps. The big caps are both closest to the tensioner.... So both will need to be switched.

[Dorifto Machine]

Now it makes me wonder if the rest are in the proper sequence.

There's dots on them instead of numbers. Anyone have anything to reference for the proper cam cap sequence? Or should I just switch these caps around making sure it sits right and call it a day?

[Dorifto Machine]

UPDATE: Well guys and gals, the oil squiters are priming as they should now. Everything's assembled /torqued properly .

However, we are back to point A. That weird sound is still present....

Any other ideas? Help this demon back to life.

I'm uploading a 5 minute test drive video so you can hear it from the engine bay to driving . Video on next Page 2