SR Owners... More HP Easy Mod... Catch Can Setup

[4x4le]

I dont think that the location you chose on the filter would create much suction. I could be wrong there, but I do think a small amount of piping from the maf to the filter would be a better location with the an fitting then welded to the piping.

With either setup (before the maf or after the maf) you have to decide which air you want to be un metered. At idle your going to be breathing in un metered air through the pcv. That might not creat much of a problem as the o2 sensor is going to get the air fuel ratio proper. Under boost with that setup your blow by air is going to be metered. My take on that is though is the air that comes from your crank case probably dont have much oxygen in it though, so I dont want to waste maf voltage on air that isnt going to be benefiting my engine. I also think that the tune will tend to change as the amount of blow by you do get increases with either the weather, or the wear on the engine, or the boost lever your running changes, you will then be creating higher maf voltages for air that has little to no oxygen in it. Air that does nothing for your engine besides create pressure.
In my eyes as a tuner I would rather have the air routed after the maf because you will be reading 100% metered air during open pcv operation and the extra air that has little to no oxygen to be found in it will not be metered (which I see as a plus).

Now like you said, if the car runs right 1 way and not the other then by all means do it the way your doing it. In my case though I have the ability to tune my car whenever I please and I see that air as something I dont want metered. I think that if you meter the blow by air that your car is going to need to be retuned more often as it will cause you to start running richer and cause you to pull more timing as your compression rings start to wear causing your engine to gradually become less powerfull sooner without a retune.

Thats just me. I wont hassle you about it because I think yall are great for coming up with this crancase vent solution and Im so freaking ready to see what you do to the baffiling!!!!

[slider2828]

To tell you the truth, the baffling is just drilling 3 wholes into the original baffles under where the fitting is. Its not that big of a deal, but its just making sure the oil has enough drainage that it won't be pushed out he top AN fitting. Not really a big deal. In stock form, it has like a little slit that allows oil to train, but definitely not enough if you have some blow by.

I am working on retuning, because the car doesn't run too well to where currently my setup in the pictures, its mounted behind the MAFS and the car isn't working too well. Like the car is bogging like its dragging the breaks... I am installing an LM-2 and a Phormula KS-4 that my girlfriend bought me. I love her.... anyways, that should tell me a lot. Probably won't get it done until the weekend.... Will keep you guys posted!!

At this point, we have 2 setups, 1 on DJPimpflex's car which is before the MAFS, and my car after the MAFS..... Once Lukes done we'll test DJ's car, but I think mine is much closer. I will also disconnect and see how much it affects the AFR of the car. Ergh freeway 3rd gear pulls unfortunately..... No Dyno at my disposal. Sucks!

Originally Posted by 4x4le

I dont think that the location you chose on the filter would create much suction. I could be wrong there, but I do think a small amount of piping from the maf to the filter would be a better location with the an fitting then welded to the piping.

With either setup (before the maf or after the maf) you have to decide which air you want to be un metered. At idle your going to be breathing in un metered air through the pcv. That might not creat much of a problem as the o2 sensor is going to get the air fuel ratio proper. Under boost with that setup your blow by air is going to be metered. My take on that is though is the air that comes from your crank case probably dont have much oxygen in it though, so I dont want to waste maf voltage on air that isnt going to be benefiting my engine. I also think that the tune will tend to change as the amount of blow by you do get increases with either the weather, or the wear on the engine, or the boost lever your running changes, you will then be creating higher maf voltages for air that has little to no oxygen in it. Air that does nothing for your engine besides create pressure.
In my eyes as a tuner I would rather have the air routed after the maf because you will be reading 100% metered air during open pcv operation and the extra air that has little to no oxygen to be found in it will not be metered (which I see as a plus).

Now like you said, if the car runs right 1 way and not the other then by all means do it the way your doing it. In my case though I have the ability to tune my car whenever I please and I see that air as something I dont want metered. I think that if you meter the blow by air that your car is going to need to be retuned more often as it will cause you to start running richer and cause you to pull more timing as your compression rings start to wear causing your engine to gradually become less powerfull sooner without a retune.

Thats just me. I wont hassle you about it because I think yall are great for coming up with this crancase vent solution and Im so freaking ready to see what you do to the baffiling!!!!

[Def]

How would the air going through the PCV valve be unmetered?

There might be some delay between the metering and it entering into the combustion chamber, but the amount the PCV valve vents is very minor anyway.

[slider2828]

Yah the air through the PCV isn't much at all...

But I was just thinking, if I have a turbo at 18PSI, the air sucking out of the crankcase and valve cover is quite a lot. Enough to make a difference do you think?

[Def]

Originally Posted by slider2828

Yah the air through the PCV isn't much at all...

But I was just thinking, if I have a turbo at 18PSI, the air sucking out of the crankcase and valve cover is quite a lot. Enough to make a difference do you think?

It really doesn't matter, as the blowby gasses are a mix of inert gases since they've already undergone combustion and some already metered air with oxygen.

It can make small changes to your AFR, but that is just one of those thing your tune has to account for in the K-factor used. That's why I suggest everybody I do a tune for recirculate their blow by behind the MAF on the turbo inlet.

[4x4le]

I shouldnt even have to re tune mine when I do a setup like this. Im already routing the blow by gases in this order, Im just not using the valve cover to catch the oil from the lower crank case.

When I did retune for this current setup I have I left the k value alone as with the o2 feedback switch turned off still equaled a stoich idle. All I did was adjust the fuel map slightly after a few pulls. My timing isnt optomised to its fullest currently anyways so it was fine to leave in my instance. Shortly after routing it this way I ended up doing a full retune because I was just setting it up for e-85 as I was getting rid of any open pcv for that setup.
I honestly think youll be the happiest with your fitting between the maf and turbo like you have it after a short retune.

[Def]

The fuel map is a target AFR map. You should adjust your K-value until you get the correct AFRs. It makes tuning way easier, and that's actually how the Nissan patent aplication reads. Not sure why they didn't do it "correctly" with the S13 chassis(stock tune values are stupid once you learn what they mean).

[blu808]

In the past I have made setups like on the green car pictured and noticed major improvements in high end power, and with eliminating oil coming out of the engine and into the intake.

I think the tube before the maf would create more suction but I am not trying to create a huge vacume in the crank case, just eliminate any positive pressure.

I also did not want to fabricate a complex maf adapter/pipe before the maf as most people would not want to do that.

I have in the past had breathers mounted after the maf like the stock setup. On a stock engine, or a engine with rings that actually seal (unlike kens lol) it is not a problem. But on a built engine that has blow by at excessive boost levels it made the engine run like shit.

[moses]

I just read an old article in the premie section and there was like 3 or 4 ways to run a oil catch can and if you want to get rid of your old catch can, the best way is to run 2 catch cans. Right now I just have a catch can between the intake and the front of the T. Is this good enough or do I need to put it somewhere else. The thread is http://zilvia.net/f/premium-members/...-catchcan.html btw. It feels like there is a lot of wrong information in this thread and I wanted it clarified because you guys know your shit.

[blu808]

That has to be one of the most retarded threads I have ever read. So much misinformation.


While there are a few good points. Most are retarded, and speak from speculation. I showed you guys a system that works.

If you want it, buy it or copy it.
If you dont, build your own.

[4x4le]

Originally Posted by Def

The fuel map is a target AFR map. You should adjust your K-value until you get the correct AFRs. It makes tuning way easier, and that's actually how the Nissan patent aplication reads. Not sure why they didn't do it "correctly" with the S13 chassis(stock tune values are stupid once you learn what they mean).

yes I know this and my tuning editor (nistune) does this pretty well. I get the k value set to where the cells at idle read 14.7 and it idles at 14.7 but thats as far as I adjust the k value. I dont care if Im hitting the targets exactly later on in the map because there are other variables such as this system that will effect the targets and actual afr's.

[blu808]

You are trying to run a boosted engine at14.7 afr?

[Def]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

yes I know this and my tuning editor (nistune) does this pretty well. I get the k value set to where the cells at idle read 14.7 and it idles at 14.7 but thats as far as I adjust the k value. I dont care if Im hitting the targets exactly later on in the map because there are other variables such as this system that will effect the targets and actual afr's.

If your k-value is set such that you get the correct AFR at idle, but not in boost, then your injector lag time is incorrect.

Do everything right where your fuel map is actually a target AFR map and it makes tuning very easy. Just fiddling with crap and getting it where it "kinda hits the right AFR here and there" is pointless when you have a nice MAF system that will give you your target AFRs anywhere you go in the map. The factory does that same crap where the AFR is all over the place and it looks like they just point tuned a few places resulting in a really lumpy fuel map and thus fuel delivery. Don't even get me started on their horrible timing maps...

[4x4le]

Originally Posted by blu808

You are trying to run a boosted engine at14.7 afr?

no...

Originally Posted by Def

If your k-value is set such that you get the correct AFR at idle, but not in boost, then your injector lag time is incorrect.

Do everything right where your fuel map is actually a target AFR map and it makes tuning very easy. Just fiddling with crap and getting it where it "kinda hits the right AFR here and there" is pointless when you have a nice MAF system that will give you your target AFRs anywhere you go in the map. The factory does that same crap where the AFR is all over the place and it looks like they just point tuned a few places resulting in a really lumpy fuel map and thus fuel delivery. Don't even get me started on their horrible timing maps...

With un metered air entering into the system there is no need to adjust your k value or latency past what you do when setting it up as a closed system. The k value, latnecy and vq scale are there for your injectors and maf sizes.
Not for making other changes with other air thats entering the system. Thats when you just have to or at least should chalk it up and accept your targets to be off a little.
Now Im not talking that im ever off by much if any when doing gas tunes, but on my personal race car with it running off e-85 there are way different characteristics of that fuel such as flow, the actual stoich mixture being different, the vaporisation of it, ect that makes several things not read out the same as gas does on gas tuning software.

Just remember all the little math figures that were done and figured out for you on the targest is assuming your using gas flowing through the injector at that pulsewidth, not alchoal.

anyways im not in here to argue about tuning or to explain myself, lets see some pictures!!!!!!!!!!!
I know the baffeling sounds easy enough but I want to see a picture before taking the drill and welder to my valvecover.

[Def]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

no...



With un metered air entering into the system there is no need to adjust your k value or latency past what you do when setting it up as a closed system. The k value, latnecy and vq scale are there for your injectors and maf sizes.
Not for making other changes with other air thats entering the system. Thats when you just have to or at least should chalk it up and accept your targets to be off a little.
Now Im not talking that im ever off by much if any when doing gas tunes, but on my personal race car with it running off e-85 there are way different characteristics of that fuel such as flow, the actual stoich mixture being different, the vaporisation of it, ect that makes several things not read out the same as gas does on gas tuning software.

Just remember all the little math figures that were done and figured out for you on the targest is assuming your using gas flowing through the injector at that pulsewidth, not alchoal.

anyways im not in here to argue about tuning or to explain myself, lets see some pictures!!!!!!!!!!!
I know the baffeling sounds easy enough but I want to see a picture before taking the drill and welder to my valvecover.

Ok, I'll stop "arguing," but just realize there is a right way and the hard way to go about tuning a MAF system.

FWIW, I made one theoretical change to the k-value based on the stoichiometric ratios of my tune and my AFRs were spot on everywhere with E85. I go from E10 to E85 with just a K-value change. That is how you properly tune a MAF system.

I'd also like to reiterate there is no unmetered air entering the system with a correct functioning PCV/catch can system routed behind the MAF.

[4x4le]

Ok well its cool, I just dont want to jack this thread. Im not saying your arguing, but Im really just not wanting to go back and fourth and have this conversation in this thread which isnt for it. When I go to retune my new setup (many things have changes and many more things will change soon so im going to retune) but Im going to spend allot of time making a "final tune". Pretty much I have just been making small changes to everything as time has went on although I did start with a different k value but it was difficult for me to calculate 72lb mds injectors for the use of e85. Are you using the REAL afr for e-85 or are you using the gas reading off the wideband? Just send me a pm or an e-mail ([email protected]) and we can discuss some of this because I dont want to jack this thread anymore.
Maybe you have better calculation methods than I do, which math isnt my strong point. What I have done however works flawlessly for me althoug I could see that there will be an advantage to having your targest spot on, but I dont think the end result will really matter once its right.

[sdrmiami]

I was having allot of problems with my catch can and swapped over to this..-12an with a moroso catch can. no more issues 520hp.. hey 4x4le ima be goin E85 soon and dialing in my cams. i will let you know my new numbers soon..

[4x4le]

Sweet. Yea call me up sometime again man. Its been a minute and I dont see you on the other forum anymore. I dont know if your even running a turbo inlet on your car but, well just call me up before you make the change over. I would do something about the open ventalation on the can, even if it was mearly running an open hose over near your turbo so it would pull in the flamable blow by gases. The vapors are quite flamable with e85

[slider2828]

I don't under stand why you would vent at the center of the valve cover... Technically it doesn't make sense.... There is least amount of room for air flow and most air doesn't circulate in between the spark wells like that....

[slider2828]

Anyways I got my LM-2 on board now, I wish I didn't mess with the IACV now it messes with the original tune. God how I hate the emanage, its sensitive to every little thing. Since doing the setup my idle was about 100 rpm's higher so I tuned it down a little. At Idle the car runs actually better as said before. During high rpm, overall it ran richer for some reason, which I think it has something to do with the stock ecu and the emanage... I will tune for that when I put in my wideband knock sensor... So I will have more next week on this....

[sdrmiami]

Originally Posted by slider2828

I don't under stand why you would vent at the center of the valve cover... Technically it doesn't make sense.... There is least amount of room for air flow and most air doesn't circulate in between the spark wells like that....

i understand what your sayen but i had to for due to space issues. location does not really matter when you are useing a monster -12 port. like i said i had many issues with my catch can but all is resolved now with this setup. i just drained it out last week after running the car for the last few months (including a hard top end of 180mph) and all that came out was less than 2 ounces.

ive tested many setups and allways had issues with regular -8 even -10 but this to me is the problem solver.

[sdrmiami]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Sweet. Yea call me up sometime again man. Its been a minute and I dont see you on the other forum anymore. I dont know if your even running a turbo inlet on your car but, well just call me up before you make the change over. I would do something about the open ventalation on the can, even if it was mearly running an open hose over near your turbo so it would pull in the flamable blow by gases. The vapors are quite flamable with e85

email me your number.. [email protected]

Thank

Mike

[slider2828]

Ok just got back from the dyno... here are the numbers



Believe it or not the setup works!!! Pulled like crazy and no oil. I saw the pipes move under pressure so I know there is a LOT of vacuum.... Didn't have a chance for HP pulls with pipe on and off....

Will do pulls at a later date with pipes on and off. Keep you guys posted.

[4x4le]

are these dyno dynamics numbers?

[slickdrifter]

here was my solution. its about 6 inches tall maybe 7 i forget the dimensions. i just designed it and had my buddy make it while practicing his aluminum welding.


I dont have the pics of my intake tube i had recently made but there will be a -8 AN fitting going into it.

[slider2828]

Dynojet 248H dyno is that low?

[SRpetey]

so what works better? putting the line before the maf or after? and will it work if the top fitting is welded on the side instead?

[mysharonna]

Originally Posted by SRpetey

so what works better? putting the line before the maf or after? and will it work if the top fitting is welded on the side instead?

Would like to know also.

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by SRpetey

so what works better? putting the line before the maf or after? and will it work if the top fitting is welded on the side instead?

Originally Posted by mysharonna

Would like to know also.

It depends on what type of catch-can system you are using... If you are using an open catch-can system (vented can), then I wouldn't plumb it back into the intake tract at all. I'd hook up your hoses to the VC and leave it like that, it'll vent itself. If you have a closed system(non-vented can), I'd get the special fittings needed to have it plumbed to the exhaust, after the turbo. The exhaust gases passing the fitting will create a venturi effect and will suck all that stuff out of the head through the can and into the exhaust. You can go before the turbo too but, that means you're sucking all that crap from the head straight into your turbo. Personally I wouldn't want it setup that way...

I run a vented can that has 2 hoses from the VC and a drain, that's plumbed back into the upper oil pan, so anything that does collect in the can goes back into the motor.

[PoorMans180SX]

Okay, so I have a real question for Blu808 and slider because I am genuinely interested in purchasing this. (especially since my setup is JANK right now).

There is no drain for the catch can on your particular setup, right? So if the catch can accumulates oil (which it eventually will, right?) how do you drain it? Remove the lines and dump it?

My setup is super lame right now, just a line routed from the T back, and then one to a "catch-can" (which I think is a spray can?) and a breather filter glued on top. EEEWW.

Also, I see you're running the line off the catch can before the MAF. How would you do this if you were running an Apex'i filter? Make another pipe in front of the MAF so you can run the line into it?