LS1 powered S14 with motorplates and modded GTO pan

[SicBastard]

I've been obsessed with getting the engine and t56 as low and far back as possible. To that end I raised the floor of the GTO oil pan as high as I could and still clear at least a 4.125" stroke. Then I cut the ENTIRE front cross support in the middle of the cross member out, something that I havn't seen done before. This required first, reinforcing the bottom of the entire crossmember with 3/16th" plate and then two pieces of 1x1 steel tube between the steering rack mounts. Then I cut out the step at the back of the GTO pan sump so that the back of the sump could go right up against the steering rack.

Modded Crossmember
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7...d/IMG_0733.jpg


Milled pan sitting in engine bay
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7...d/DSC00124.jpg


To give you an idea of how effective all this work is in setting back the engine and trans, here are two pictures of other LS1/S14s:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7...LUP1010269.jpg


and mine:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7...d/DSC02097.jpg


My new problem is that the engine sits so low that my GTO oil sump now sits 0.75" below my crossmember. And that's not accounting for the 3/16" that I added to the bottom of the original crossmember!

I did not lower the crossmember relative to the car, and do not plan on doing so. Now I don't know what direction to go with the oil system. I only have a junk LS6 block and havn't started the engine build so I can still go any direction that I want. I'd like to stay away from the weight, complexity, and $$$ of a true dry sump system. I have a used accusump system and originally planned on just staying wet sump, and using the accumulator for a little insurance. But the sump is sittling so low that now I'm worried about ground clearance.

I'm torn between leaving it as it is, modifying the pan to use the LS7 twin pump system, or taking 3/4" out of the bottom of the sump, maybe adding wings and baffles and staying wet sump.

I noticed that the guys with project silvia at SCC had their anti-sway bar hanging below their crossmember after installing the front whiteline bar. Maybe I should just install a whiteline bar and call it a tubular oil-pan guard?

What Dave at SCC had to say,

"The front bar hangs down slightly farther than the stock bar, but there have been no problems with bottoming out. We like to think of it as a 27-mm tubular oil-pan guard.

...we hit one of those asphalt waves that get slowly kicked up when thousands of overweight trucks stop in the same place. The ridge of asphalt was high enough to hit the front anti-roll bar, lifting the car off the ground, bending the bar's pivot bushings and slamming the bar into the oil pan. The stock steel pan escaped only slightly dented, but we fear an aluminum pan would crack under a similar impact. If you're going to be sloppy, haphazard drivers like us, steel may be the way to go."

My engine sits further back than an SR so I think I'll be alright in that regard, I dunno?

note the blue bar hangin' low

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7...ilvia_01_z.jpg



http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7...silvia10_z.jpg


What do you guys think?

[GSXRJJordan]

Wow, except for the messed up font html code, great post, and great work!

At first, when you were talking about slicing and dicing the crossmember/gto pan I thought it would be a n00b job, but it looks great.

Is there enough room for you to just add 1/2" or so in height to your motor mounts? It looks like the shifter plate is already pretty close to the top of the tranny tunnel though.

I think the sway bar is a great deflector for road debris, etc, but honestly I drive my s13 low enough to scrape aero/sway/downpipe/exhaust on tiny ass speed bumps, and just driving around the only thing I regularly scrape is the front aero ~ I think it'd be pretty hard to hit the oil pan if you could keep it within 1/2" of the crossmember or so. I know you want it perfect, but that's just food for thought...

Dry sump is tits, but I agree that it's complexity/price is a huge turnoff... The twin pump system from the LS7 would be cool too, but again, I'm just not sure you'd need it.

[gsracer]

You think you got problems look at how low my v8 sits. About 1 and an 1/8 inch below the crossmember.

[mmdb]

Concerning the oil pan being a bit low you could fab up a shield that would prevent rocks or debris from hitting it. You won't have problems going over speed bumps because the oil pan is somewhat inline with the wheels so as the wheels go over bumps the oil pan will clear. I might look like your stock sway bar MIGHT fit if you got your engine that far back. If not then you could always go with a custom sway bar. That's what I'm doing.

[slow40]

gl man, cant wait for the finished product

[SicBastard]

The clearances all around the trans are super tight in the tunnel, I couldn't raise 'em even if I wanted to.

And Jordan you're right, the perfectionist in me may just be getting the better of me. Especially because like mmdb said, the sump sits square between the front wheels

GSRACER is that bad boy on the road? Ever scrapped or hit the pan? Is that a VH?

Thanx a ton for the input guys! Here's some more pics:

[300hp owen]

you can leave it as it is but you should really just add a skidplate under the entire oilpan that is spaced away from it maybe 1/8 inch and being 1/4 thick,that should be enough to avoid cracking the pan, which I have read about before in LS1FD swaps.... these pans do not like to get debris or being poked at.

btw, awesome work, WOW!

[Fred Allen Burge]

Motor plates make me horny. That is all.

Fred

[gunluvS14]

love the motor plate

[SicBastard]

Thanx guys, the motor plate is the Thunder Racing generic plate. All of the other plates out there are angled on the bottom or top to fit the f-bodys which have their frame rails sitting higher relative to the engine than the 240s. It's like the ultimate strut tower bar! I also have a steel mid plate in there. And I ditched the top bolt hole on the bell housing so that I could put a bolt through the firewall and hang the engine without the trans. And of course I can do the opposite too, pull the trans without supporting the engine. The motor plates also double as lightweight accessory mounts. Plus tons of clearance for headers/turbos someday.
It's like a win win win win situation!

[JDMPalace]

Nice fab work!!

[Fred Allen Burge]

Originally Posted by SicBastard

Thanx guys, the motor plate is the Thunder Racing generic plate. All of the other plates out there are angled on the bottom or top to fit the f-bodys which have their frame rails sitting higher relative to the engine than the 240s. It's like the ultimate strut tower bar! I also have a steel mid plate in there. And I ditched the top bolt hole on the bell housing so that I could put a bolt through the firewall and hang the engine without the trans. And of course I can do the opposite too, pull the trans without supporting the engine. The motor plates also double as lightweight accessory mounts. Plus tons of clearance for headers/turbos someday.
It's like a win win win win situation!

Ya, they have a lot of advantages it seems. My newest upcoming VQ project (non S-chassis ) is gonna have atleast a front plate if not both like yours.

Great work!

Fred

[SicBastard]

Originally Posted by Fred Allen Burge

Ya, they have a lot of advantages it seems. My newest upcoming VQ project (non S-chassis ) is gonna have atleast a front plate if not both like yours.

Great work!

Fred

The only disadvantage it seems in NVH. But I'm still young and dumb. I still think noise, free massages, and big cams are cool.

[OutToWinPAHC]

Looks good, I didn't use a Hinson kit either, I dont like how they cut corners. Or just notch the X member without bracing it.

Great work

My LSX Mutt... LS6 Block, LS2 Heads, LS2 intake, 105mm TB, 60lb injectors, and more.

[SicBastard]

OTWPAHC, Where is that surge tank from? And what did you do for headers? Nice work on getting that frankenstein motor in there!

[SicBastard]

some more pics

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7...d/DSC02145.jpg


Right now I'm leaning towards staying wet sump and adding some side wings with baffles and these one way valves from billet fabrications out in Simi Valley California.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7..._pan_intro.gif


http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7...alls_intro.gif


These guys make beautiful custom oil pans, plus they are near my old home town. Any one ever used their stuff?

[Fred Allen Burge]

Why would you need the one way baffle thing? Is it for racing purposes or is it necessary because of something you modified on the pan?

Fred

[SicBastard]

Originally Posted by Fred Allen Burge

Why would you need the one way baffle thing? Is it for racing purposes or is it necessary because of something you modified on the pan?

Fred

I plan on road racing. With an extra reservoir/wing sump on either side of the main sump, oil would be able to "hide" in the outside (of the turn) reservoir, unless there is a one-way valve there to stop it. At the same time the one-way valve on the reservoir sump on the inside side would be open and contributing extra oil capacity directly to the main sump.

[SicBastard]

I've got a debate giong on at LS1tech.com as to whether or not to retro-fit ABS. I plan on road racing and streeting the car? What do you all think? Am I better off staying manual so that I can control a spin and learn better threshold breaking techniques, or is the shorter stopping distances afforded by ABS something that a max performance car just shouldn't go with out?

[tknbkthrsdy4anfg]

I would go without ABS. the pedal feel without a box of gizmos in the way is far better in my opinion.

[brainfood]

Take it from me, I have been road racing and drifting with my s14's for quite some time and the abs on the car just isnt worth keeping. With bigger brakes it seems like the g-sensor causes the abs to kick in before there is wheel lock-up. I dont know if this is true but I 100% prefer no abs on these cars.

[SicBastard]

Thanx for the real world input guys. I know that there is a wide gap in even 9 year old ABS technology. Right now I'm leaning towards staying with the stock S14 brakes and some green stuff until I can engineer my own big break set up with zo6 calipers or used nascar stuff.

[SicBastard]

A little off subject on the engine swap, but... I got a job at TTP (a great shop that specializes in LS1s) here in North Jersey and we had a C6 Zo6 in the other day. While the wheels were off I measured the rotor thickness (32mm) and the minimum inside wheel diameter needed to clear the breaks with the 14" rotors (16" exactly). Those 6 pot calipers are rediculously cheap from GM and F'n HUGE! Just some food for thought.

I'm now looking into a high mounted dry-sump pump set-up made by AVIAD, and I bought some LS7 bare CNC'd heads that are over at West Coast Cylinder Heads gettin machined to take some seriously nasty valve springs. So things are still progressing... just slowly.

[lazierhobo]

rockin fab work man, love to see these types of projects. im looking at doing that 6pot brake setup. probably gonna use two piece rotors, and custom make rotor hats with the correct offset.

[RUTH'LESSDET]

man this lsx motor is taking over the 240sx scene Ic. I hate america cars but man I just love this motor now its like a sickness!!!
....love the post good luck with the project just keep feeding us pictures and video later on

[Neejay]

Any update to this?

[SicBastard]

I had to move so I'm still setting up my garage. Bought a new air compressor, and a new welder is in the works. The miller dealer is having a big show and tell day where you can try all the different welders next month, so I'll probably wait till then.

The LS7 heads are still with Richard over at WCCRH, and I just scored an LS7 intake on ebay for $200. I told Richard that I needed to go semi budget on the heads. He has a cnc program for the exhaust ports that add about 25cc/min of flow for $300, and he also has ti valves for about a grand. I will be getting neither of those. The heads come CNC'd from GM and I'm hoping to get away with spinning those rediculously large 2.2" intake valves to 7500 rpm with good ol brute force via WCCRH monster 1.450" (a big block chevy style) dual valve springs. The springs will require a little maching of the seats. The valves will most likely be manley stainless. They are heavy just due to the size.

My Old Speed inc billet LS1 fuel rails come no where near lining up. Now I just have to deside if I should Fab new mounts for the rails or if I should just get new LS7 specific ones?

It's also about time I got my ohlins rebuilt, so they should be going down to South Carolina here pretty quick. I made a really strong plywood shipping box, because the are my new "Precious."

And the last little thing, is that I just picked up a new steering shaft universal joint from the nissan dealership out here on rt 46E. The little POS was $90, but the old one was a little notchy, and there's no point in cheapin out now. I also have a set of 2006 LS2 GTO headers that I've bolted up. I'll see if the drivers side will clear some the steering rack u joint that I just got. The passanger side sticks way out and hits the frame rail, but there are no other clearance issues, so I think that a vette LS2 manifold would be fine on the passanger side. I'll keep yall updated.

-=Peace and Tire Smoke=-

[IIIXziuR]

This is a good thread. I love fab work and engine hybrid swaps. Man I cant wait to do some stuffs too

[SicBastard]

I ordered a new millermatic MIG 140 yesterday, so that I can get the momo's mounted, finish the cage, and the mid and motor plates. Then I'm going to try and come up with some kind of clever bracketry for the mounstrous 4" thick radiator. The Ohlins finally did get shipped out last Saturday to Ohlins USA in South Carolina. Keep you fingers crossed for me, so I don't have to sell my house to pay for the rebuilds. The Dampers are a little beat up, and there is some rust on one of the shafts, so I'm going to have to, "overnight some parts in from Japan!" Not really, they'll probably put them on a boat and I'll have them before the end of the summer

[SicBastard]

Cam Plans
Well here is the cam that I cam up with and the engine specs all nice and neat thanks to the "Quick and Dirty Cam/SCR/DCR Calculator Spreadsheet Modified and Simplified by PianoProdigy" that I found somewhere over on LS1tech.com

Lift in inches__________________0.006 0.050 0.200
Intake Duration - ID (first number) 293 244 165
Exhaust Duration - ED (second number) 300 252 169
Lobe Center Angle - LCA (also known as LSA) 109 109 109
Intake Centerline - ICL (LSA - degrees of advance e.g. 114+2 = 112) 110 110 110

Intake Valve opens - IVO 36.5 12 -27.5 BTDC (- indicates ATDC)
Intake Valve closes - IVC 76.5 52 12.5 ABDC
Exhaust Valve Opens - EVO 78 54 12.5 BBDC
Exhaust Valve Closes - EVC 42 18 -23.5 ATDC (- indicates BTDC)
Exhaust Centerline - ECL 108 108 108
Overlap 78.5 30 -51 degrees

Bore 4.125
ST = Stroke 3.622
RL = Rod Length 6.2
Number of cylinders 8
Deck Height (how much pistons come out of the hole) -0.018
Piston Dome or Dish (- for a dome + for a dish) 2
Compressed Head gasket thickness 0.051 cometeic (stock is 0.054)
Cylinder Head Chamber Volume 62.5 (hopefully with the .045 mill)

Static Compression Ratio 12.06 :1
Dynamic Compresion Ratio 8.60 :1
Rod to Stroke Ratio 1.71 :1
Bore to Stroke Ratio 1.14 :1

The plan was to build a cam and motor that would make a ton of horsepower, but have less of a tire shredding tendency to help with traction out of the corners. Redline will most likely be 7500 rpm. I fear giong any higher because of the massive (read heavy) 2.200 stainless intake valves, that I have to use due to budget constraints, in the LS7 heads. I'm also using a milder lobe then most: the older comp "Xtreme RPM for LS1 Hi lift" Which will produce 0.630" lift on both intake and exhaust with the stock LS7 1.8 rockers.
I'm guessing that this engine will peak just under 6800 rpm without much fall off to redline. I'm using a stock but port-matched LS7 intake, and custom headers. The oversquare engine comes out to 392 ci. I think that the 30 degrees of overlap should be just streetable enough. It's the late IVC that I'm hoping will curb the dynamic compression ratio enough for the hi compression pump gas combo, and simultaneously help push the peak power rpm up above the 6300 wall that so many other LS1 engines seem to sit at.

This cam is all still theoretical; the heads and intake are not. So if anyone has any knowledgeable input/ideas to provide, I'm all ears.