LS1 powered S14 with motorplates and modded GTO pan

[SicBastard]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

Can you take some measurements like I asked for in the last page for comparison?

Most mounts I've seen place the LS-series really high.

My garage isn't at my house so it might be a while. But there's a reason for all of the kits sitting so hi. The GTO pan forces the block up, and the tunnel forces the engine/bellhousing forward. Banging is a severe understatement regarding what I did to the trans tunnel to get the engine back, and then I strapped my GTO oil pan down to the mill and took a lot of material out.





it's also subtle to see, but I cut out the ENTIRE center section of the crossmember and reinforced it underneath the steering rack.

The only kit out there that I see right now addressing the oil pan problem is Sikky.

[SicBastard]

For those interested in N/A power, I asked Brian Nutter of Wiseco Pistons to check out my thread on my latest piston dome idea and here's his response from over on LS1tech.

The soft head concept is valid, but there are some things you need to consider. Larry Widmer is a good friend of mine and a good customer. We do the pistons for his 420+ crank horsepower naturally aspirated Honda 4 cylinders. At the same time, you've got to look at Cup and Pro stock engines today for the most advanced 2v technology. These are the people who know the most, but they aren't going to talk about it on a forum. I've seen the CFD combustion analysis they do and it's incredible. Efficiencies well beyond F1 due to them developing against a standard that remains in place for longer than a couple years. Larry certainly stands as a person that got many of these people to start Studying and Thinking about the art.

Most of the present high end N/A engines do not enhance swirl in the intake port. In general, we don't want swirl at the expense of flow and tumble designs are better. To this end, Larry has some interesting features in the Venturi area that act as a vortex generator and induces the air to stick around the short turn of the intake runner.

Where swirl can be accomplished without hurting flow is in the combustion chamber. A Pro Stock engine COULD use a smaller chamber and get a flat top to net the needed compression, but they don't. What does that tell you about mixture motion? We build up dome around the intake side without shrouding the valve (made easier by the cant of the intake valve used on those heads, and the exhaust side of the dome is smaller-but still above the deck a fair amount. I'd say this area is "funnel like" in the chamber and the dome that matches it.

For guys that are truly gluttons for punishment, we've built pistons that had a dome on the intake side and a Reverse dome on the exhaust. It was a nightmare to engineer, machine, and I hope the customer had an easier time of getting it into the engine than we did building them. The pistons were VERY heavy because of the Mass could not be removed underneath the intake side, yet the crown had to be thick enough under the reverse dome side. All in all, it's an excellent exercise, but the heads and pistons almost need to be designed around each other from the start to not shrowd the valves.

So what's a guy to do?: You'll find the easiest way to get good results is to mill the heads enough that a small reverse dome is necessary. Be careful because you CAN hurt flow and that almost always hurts more than the enhanced combustion helps. Speak to your cylinder head manufacturer as the best have flowed the heads at different chamber volumes. Back to the reverse dome- The wall created with this reverse image actually reflects the combustion back to the center of the cylinder for a split second longer resulting in a more complete burn. I have seen this in CFD and in burn patterns on pistons. As always, there are other things that can offset the gains...deep valve pockets may require lowering the top ring and creating more crevice area. Where does it stop! It doesn't!

Our three part numbers k462,k463, and k464 use something we call the Wiseco flow dome. When we went to a multifit pocket to accomodate different heads, it made it hard to hit the negative -3cc volume necessary for many applications. We designed a nifty little dome that mirrored the face of the valves on the intake and exhaust...this left a natural flame slot around the plug area. In theory, it may promote flow around the valves when the piston is around tdc. Because the intake dome is larger than the exhaust, it could promote movement toward the exhaust side, but the PERFECT combination would require a cylinderhead and dome be built in conjuction....literally minimal piston to valve clearance and the chamber sized to net the compression ratio in conjuction with the dome. We have some visuals of this if you want to email me at [email protected] . Larry and I have spoken about him doing flow testing with the piston under the cylinder head in the bore fixture and the valves opened up as they would be around tdc with typical camshafts. For now though, it's unproven to help or hurt. Some day I'll retire and mess with this stuff every day. Until then, take anything I say with a grain of salt

[IIIXziuR]

Every time I come into this thread you lay down the cold hard facts, I love that Dru.
Man I really can't wait until the engine is all assembled

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by SicBastard

But there's a reason for all of the kits sitting so hi. The GTO pan forces the block up, and the tunnel forces the engine/bellhousing forward. Banging is a severe understatement regarding what I did to the trans tunnel to get the engine back, and then I strapped my GTO oil pan down to the mill and took a lot of material out.

it's also subtle to see, but I cut out the ENTIRE center section of the crossmember and reinforced it underneath the steering rack.

That is consistent with my experience. There is no real solution without cutting either the firewall or the subframe.

I chose to cut the firewall to mount the engine as far back as possible. The oil pan is a Moroso 7qt pan with the front half chopped off the clear the subframe.

Originally Posted by SicBastard

The only kit out there that I see right now addressing the oil pan problem is Sikky.

The Sikky kit also places the motor really high tho.


You guys with LS-series motors should have a shorter intake, but somehow every LS swap I've seen, yours included, puts the intake higher than my carb.

Have you considered going through the firewall and moving the firewall back 6" or so?


Nice work nonetheless.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by SicBastard

For those interested in N/A power, I asked Brian Nutter of Wiseco Pistons to check out my thread on my latest piston dome idea and here's his response from over on LS1tech.

Props to you for trying to make it work. I'm lazy = crate motah

How much does the engine alone cost you?

[SicBastard]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

You guys with LS-series motors should have a shorter intake, but somehow every LS swap I've seen, yours included, puts the intake higher than my carb.

Have you considered going through the firewall and moving the firewall back 6" or so?

Nice work nonetheless.

The SBC has a lower deck height than an LS1. The LS1 also has much deeper skirt. And I built my pan with enough clearance for a 4.125" stroke. Most SBCs are only running a 3.5" stroke I believe. So of course they can have the bottom of the pan sitting that much closer to the block, thus allowing the entire engine to sit that much lower.



Even with this relatively tall single plane on an LS1 (I'd bet you're intake isn't this tall) you'll notice that the carb base is not taller than the fuel rails.

Also the LSx style plenum under runner intakes aren't as low as you might think. Here's the Al BBK intake for the LS1



These 4 things together, incrementally, make the LS1 look quite a bit taller than a SBC.

And regarding the fire wall. I really did want to cut it, but that would relegate me to a different class in nasa time trials among others. I believe it also forces you to have a heavier cage in other sanctioning bodies.

[g6civcx]

Thanks for responding.

Just out of curiosity, I will measure my plastic mock-up block and see how high the genI block really is.

I really wanted a cast iron block.

When I put new aluminium heads on, what's the weight advantage of the LS-series you would estimate to be, i.e. why did you choose LS-series over genI if the weight isn't that different?


Reason I'm asking is I'm building my backup car, and I'm contemplating running an LSx instead of a genI in that one.

[SicBastard]

Weight was a big factor, but the incredibly easy to tune LS1 ECU, 6 bolt mains, and incredible flowing heads sealed the deal.


SBC 575
SBF 510
LS1 434

I don't want to argue these weights. These are the accesorized weights as I see 'em.

[SicBastard]

You can also make an LS1 street legal in CA where I was living when I started the project. I don't think that there were any new passenger cars for sale after 1998 with a SBC.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by SicBastard

the incredibly easy to tune LS1 ECU

I have a degree in computer engineering, but I like tuning a carb. Ironic

Originally Posted by SicBastard

6 bolt mains

werd

Originally Posted by SicBastard

incredible flowing heads sealed the deal

I'm more interested in response. How does it compare to say a dual plane sbc?

Originally Posted by SicBastard

SBC 575

What accessories and what heads? I saw this quote in the GMPP catalogue as well but didn't know what they dressed it with.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by SicBastard

You can also make an LS1 street legal in CA where I was living when I started the project. I don't think that there were any new passenger cars for sale after 1998 with a SBC.

The trucks and vans came with sbc until 2002, but in order to be federally compliant you have to use the vortec fi.

[SicBastard]

I believe that is with iron ex manifolds for all 3, and iron heads on the SBC and SBF.

I don't really think that I have enough experience to comment on response, but there are a lot of little tricks implemented in the LS1 to reduce friction and weight which should help.

I test drove a stock c6 with an LS2 and a 6 speed last year, and was pretty blown away by how it revved.

Another cool thing about the LS ecu is that you can control the rate of electronic throttle opening relative to throttle input so that the car feels anywhere from grandma lazy to road runner on crack twitchy. Neato!

[SicBastard]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

The trucks and vans came with sbc until 2002, but in order to be federally compliant you have to use the vortec fi.

In CA your motor must come from a passenger car

Truck motors aren't kosher.

[g6civcx]

The main reason I stayed with an sbc is cost and support. While I realise the support is there for the LS, the cost is much more.

Plus all the tuning shops around here do drag cars, and not many of them run LS's.

I will probably stay with the sbc for the backup car as well, just to keep things simple.


Good build nonetheless. Keep it up.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by SicBastard

In CA your motor must come from a passenger car

Truck motors aren't kosher.

Damn, you're right. I thought light duty trucks under 10 tons GVW would be kosher, but apparently not.

[timster]

Originally Posted by SicBastard

If you're trying to go budget and don't have to worry about stringent laws regarding registration, consider an aluminum truck motor and then bolt a t5 to it. You're smart to look for a clip though. Saves a lot of time and money. If you've got the cash though the GTOs came with a nicer version of the t56 (worse gearing for 1st gear, but better synchros, and more performance oriented 5th and 6th gear) and will be easy to register.

Yeah, I've been weighing the possibilities. One requirement, though, is the engine will be sitting in front of the t56 -- no auto or 5 speed.

Out of curiosity, though, which truck engines came in aluminum block? I know of the LQ series, which are all iron block and aluminum head, but I didn't know of any aluminum block truck engines.

And thanks for the heads up on the GTOs t56 -- should I get stuck with an auto donor car I'll know to buy a t56 out of a GTO when the swap rolls around.

[SicBastard]

I couldn't take driving just the explorer anymore and just bought a '95 miata. Don't worry, though, the LS7 nissan is still the priority. I've been going back and forth with both Katech and Oliver Rods, trying to decide between lube tubes or piston squirters. I got worried about small end lubrication with my dry sump cranking at 15" of vacuum. I'll let you all know which way I go.

I take my last exam for a while next week, and started organizing my new garage yesterday so that I can actually move through it without killing myself. I also couldn't take driving just the explorer anymore and bought a '95 miata. It's equipped with pretty much the entire flyin' miata catalog including the Corky Bell designed whipple "Ubercharger U3". It's currently at 9 lbs and is a lot of fun. I called BEGi last week to ask about upping the boost and how to calculate a projected boost level based upon pulley drive ratio. I ended up speaking to Corky directly for about an hour! It was a real treat. I've read his book "Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems" cover-to-cover more than once. He was extremely helpful. He walked me through what turned out to be pretty simple math, and we talked about screw supercharges, and improvements he's thinking about/working on for my kit. It turns out that for a relatively narrow range (that I happen to be operating in), the pressure ratio (aka boost) = the pulley ratio. Flyin' miata reccomends not going over 12 psi on a stock 95 1.8L motor, but Corky said 14-15 is in the range of doable with 93 octane and an excellent tune. To that end Flyin' Miata sold me a very small supercharger pulley (67mm) that they had left over (the stoped selling the kit) at an excellent price because the didn't sell many because they don't recommend them. I also installed an LC1 wide band from innovative motorsports. I plan on polishing up the tune before I swap pulleys. The LC1 and new Link Ecu have not been fun to learn. But I shall overcome, and study, and practice until I am of EFI guru status! Once the street tune is done I'll head over to my old shop in New Jersey, TTP for some dyno sessions and precision alignment. They just moved into a bigger/nicer facility in Little Falls and are having a grand opening BBQ tomarrow, if I can pry myself away from this computer, deny the urge to go play with the link ecu, and get enough studying done tonight I might stop by.

[RUTH'LESSDET]

hey dru what's going on as soon as you finish up those test hit me up and come check out the ls2 I've been on the road for about 2-3 months. I love it let me tell you! I could use some of your SUPERIOR knowledge because I'm gonna get the car tuned soon

[SicBastard]

Originally Posted by RUTH'LESSDET

hey dru what's going on as soon as you finish up those test hit me up and come check out the ls2 I've been on the road for about 2-3 months. I love it let me tell you! I could use some of your SUPERIOR knowledge because I'm gonna get the car tuned soon

Oh stop it...
You're making me blush.
You can suck my brain dry for a ride in that thing any day. I'll give ya call in a few weeks for sure.

[SicBastard]

I realized that not everyone know what lube tubes are, so here's my definition.

Basically Oliver only makes thick I-beam billet rods. The thickness allows them to use some fancy laser to bore two holes inside the rod lengthwise. The holes supply the small end with oil from the mains. Just like with piston squirters, more oil pressure/volume is probably a good thing.

When running a high vacuum sump pump there is no oil being splashed around lubricating the small end of the rod, and failures sometimes occur.

http://www.flatlanderracing.com/olivertubes.html

[SicBastard]

The lube tube rods showed up from oliver the other day!

And some news from Ohlins... but first I thought that I'd introduce my lastest distraction





A whipple charged and intercooled 95 miata with 220whp! It's a lot of fun. The second pic is not from mine, just what the kit looks like on a pre '94 with out an intercooler.

Ohlins informed me that they have lost my front shocks, including the tein camber plates, and tender springs. And the custom wooden crate that I spent an entire day making and requested be reused.

Feeling trapped and without a lot of options I asked what they planned to do about it and was informed that they would ship me a new set for $1500 which is supposedly below their cost. I asked if they had the newer DFV valving available and was informed... no. Also something that I have mixed feelings on is that they are steel, not Aluminum. I realize that the retail on these things is $3200, but honestly I don't exactly feel taken care of (at $1500) after a year of being dicked around, and not even getting my parts back.

Am I being unreasonable?

What would you guys do?

[IIIXziuR]

Jeez man, these Ohlins are still not back in your hands?
These things must be made of gold--seems like such a hassle dealing with these people back and forth. Granted, I know they must be of extreme caliber but it seems like a nuisance.
Now they lost them? WTF.

Cool Miata tho!

[brndck]

/\/\ wow if they lost your parts i'd say that the ONLY acceptable thing is for them to replace what you had with either the same thing or something very similar that you approve of ENTIRELY AT THEIR COST with NO ADDITIONAL $ FROM YOU.

[Slidin240Wayz]

Tell them you want a better deal.

Sell them for double.

Buy the set you want.

[sillyvia13]

Is this love that I am feeling, is this love That I been waiting for....

Your balls are gonna rumble like a harley... SO FUCKING SICK!
how long is your wheelie bar...lmao
Shits gonna fucking flip over backwards from shear nastyness.

[sillyvia13]

Originally Posted by Slidin240Wayz

Tell them you want a better deal.

Sell them for double.

Buy the set you want.

If they lost your shit, the insurnace will cover it.
Tell em to step up there game and drop you some nice shit...
you should not be paying for something they lost.

damn.
nice mitia

[SicBastard]

Ohlins & Cam Update:

There's a new guy at the North Carolina shop Joey, that's actually been calling me back when he says he will. He told me that he recently found my front shocks, but that the tenders, springs and camber plates weren't there (in a storage closet). He called to tell me that my new set is in from Japan finally and he'll try and find the rest of the parts. I told him I want everything back, so he's going to do his best. He's holding firm on the $1500 ($3200 is retail) stating that is below their cost. I have trouble believing that, but I'm not going to call him a liar.

So every thing should be back in my hands by February!

And I'll be putting my original Ohlins up for sale with full disclosure to what ever brave soul wants 'em for $500, when I get 'em.

I've been farting around looking at the most popular LS7 cams and comparing them to what I've been spec'n. Here's what I've gathered about the QM600 & Katech's Torquer:
QM600
Specs:113+X 23X/25X 6XX/6XX (14-24.5 overlap @ .050”)
Carlos from Vette-Air, “QM600 cam have made everyone pretty happy. With bolt-ons and tuning you are looking at 545 to 565 and with ported heads 575to 600 on pump gas!!!”
Peaks at 6500 with very little taper
600.3 RWHP / 534.2 Torque (RPM ported heads)
598 HP / 529 TQ (WCCH ported heads and bolt ons)
564RWHP / 501RWTQ bolt ons
Stock Dyno: 432 rwhp /419 rwtq
Bolt Ons & Tune: 490 / 462
QM600: 555.6 / 485.5
542rwhp and 485 ft-lbs (with only 24 peak timing)
542RWHP 482RWTQ w bolt ons 91 oct (baseline stock was 448 hp though)


Katech Torquer LS7 cam
Specs: 220/244 .615.648 110lsa (usually +4)
(12 overlap @ .050”) From 0 to 4 degrees advance: It increases torque about 6 lb-ft and sacrifices about 4hp
very drivable at 1500rpm in 6th peaks at 6500 rpm. Katech considers it a trade-off for drivability for a loss of power above 6000 rpm. Peaks at ~6400
06 Z06 makes about 500rwhp on a Mustang.
Depending on whose chassis dyno, we have seen 508-557rwhp
And exactly 600hp / 570 lb-ft of torque on an engine dyno.

In judging the aggressiveness of a cam I often look at the overlap first, and the qm600 definitely carries more overlap than the Torquer, despite the wider LSA. It's surprising to me that the qm600 doesn't seem to produce much more upstairs if any!? With both of these cams, it appears no one's made >565 whp without porting the heads on a 427cc LS7.
The cam I'm spec'n right now changes weekly, but for comparisons sake here's what I like today: 236/244 110 +4
If you use David Vizard's chart to determine LSA based on a ratio of discplacement to intake valve area, he states that the ideal LSA of an LS7 would be 108. I think that the LS7 can probably get away with a little bit wider of an LSA due to it's exceptional flow qualities, especially compared to the SBC heads that I believe David's chart was intended for.
Let's compare LSAs:
Vizard's Chart: 108
Mine:110
Katech:110
qm600:113
stock LS7: 120.5
Also from Vizard's Article:

Level 4 is considered the "street/strip" range of overlap given in "advertised" duration (~0.006" of lift). But once again, I think that for the LS7, these values need to be shifted a little more conservatively.
Let's compare the overlaps @ .050" lift
mine: 20 (69 @ 0.006)
qm600: 14-24.5
torquer: 12
stock LS7: -20
Per Vizard's chart (via overlap alone) my cam is so mild that it doesn't even qualify as a street strip cam! And the Torquer (and probably the qm600) is/are even more mild still. Katech has some videos on you tube of a c6 lugging along on the freeway at 52 mph in 6th gear @ ~1500 rpm. This mild overlap is probably part of the reason these cams are touted as being so "driveable".

Let's compare IVC ABDC @ .050" lift
mine:44 (68.5 @ 0.006)
qm600: ~44- ~52.5
torquer: 36-40
stock LS7: 42 (~66.5 @ 0.006)
I'm used to looking at LS1/LS2 cam numbers, and when I first sat down to spec out my own cam I thought that I had an extremely late IVC. For reference: Patrick G once said IVC no later than 46 (maybe 48?) on a 346 w/ 241 heads. I also presumed that the stock LS7 cam would never have a late IVC with its smallish 211 intake duration. But, interestingly, it's massive LSA of 120.5 pushes the IVC within 2 degrees of my cam! Even more interesting, you'll notice that Katech's cam has an IVC even earlier than the stock LS7 cam! So that's why they call it the TORQUER! Installing that cam, has the same effect upon your dynamic compression ratio, as milling the heads!
Re: future changes?
Before this is over, I may add a touch more exhaust duration, and reduce the advance. I don't know, we'll see!

[SicBastard]

One more thing I just noticed:

Katech's torquer cam raised the LS7s DCR from 8.5 to 9.1!
And this is still on pump gas! Wow. That goes a long way towards illustrating how good the quench and heat dissapating properties of the LS7 are engineered. A lot of the engine masters challenge engines seem to run with a DCR of right about 8.5. Very few people claim to run around on pump gas on the street with a DCR >9.0:1.

PS: Sillyvia13, you make me LOL

[RMJmotor]

Dru is my hero and old roomate, remember the time.... J/k

The build is lookign good man. I have my 1Jz by the end of the month.

[SicBastard]

Originally Posted by RMJmotor

Dru is my hero and old roomate, remember the time.... J/k

The build is lookign good man. I have my 1Jz by the end of the month.

So that's the future of drifting eh? Mother F**k the RB! USDM all the way!!! 1jz FTW!!

...sorry, just trying to fit in.

Miguel, there will be no "remember the time" in a public forum... j/k

You gunna start selling parts off your website any time soon?

If you want to be COOL & IN THE KNOW, check out Miguel's Web Site:

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