The Future Automotive Thread

[[240sx]]

Originally Posted by BOROSUN

https://www.thedrive.com/news/29940/...s-coupe-report

Mazda concept cars... you won't hurt me again.

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[exitspeed]

I'll give you guys the C8 is a little straight forward in design, but the cost of developing a car like this from a mainstream manufacturer is so high that I'm willing to forgive the design considering what they were able to achieve engineering wise. Offering a mid engine super car for $60k-ish, hell even under $100k is mind blowing. Plus, the aftermarket are going nuts over this thing. It's a monster.

[KA24DESOneThree]

Mazda must be losing money heavily. I won't even touch a paint job on a stripped car for $25k and that includes no parts and no bodywork.

It isn't rocket science to put an engine behind the passenger compartment but ahead of the rear axle. It didn't even need to be done- it was just something Chevrolet decided to do. Much smaller companies with much smaller R&D teams have built similar projects that didn't need as much horsepower because they focused on dynamics.

Does Corvette really want to be the company that says "we make the cheapest mid-engined sports car in the US?" Is it now the "Official Sports Car of Real People?"

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

Mazda must be losing money heavily. I won't even touch a paint job on a stripped car for $25k and that includes no parts and no bodywork.

It isn't rocket science to put an engine behind the passenger compartment but ahead of the rear axle. It didn't even need to be done- it was just something Chevrolet decided to do. Much smaller companies with much smaller R&D teams have built similar projects that didn't need as much horsepower because they focused on dynamics.

Does Corvette really want to be the company that says "we make the cheapest mid-engined sports car in the US?" Is it now the "Official Sports Car of Real People?"

What's your favorite vape brand bruh?

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by [240sx]

Mazda concept cars... you won't hurt me again.

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Expectation :




Reality :

[exitspeed]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

Mazda must be losing money heavily. I won't even touch a paint job on a stripped car for $25k and that includes no parts and no bodywork.

It isn't rocket science to put an engine behind the passenger compartment but ahead of the rear axle. It didn't even need to be done- it was just something Chevrolet decided to do. Much smaller companies with much smaller R&D teams have built similar projects that didn't need as much horsepower because they focused on dynamics.

Does Corvette really want to be the company that says "we make the cheapest mid-engined sports car in the US?" Is it now the "Official Sports Car of Real People?"

Yeah it’s so easy every does it you know like Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, etc.

Sure there’s been a mid engine car here and there but it’s not the norm. When is the last time Toyota, Nissan, VW, etc offered a mid engine car? It’s been 25 years for Toyota. Ford has the GT...AND ITS A HALF OF A MILLION DOLLARS. Because development costs forced it to be that expensive.

I’d say if anything it’s fine to not like the design, but if you have to respect the engineering feat.

Originally Posted by Corbic

Expectation :




Reality :

Dude tour comparing cars of 3 generations apart. Mazda is doing a bang up job matching concepts with production cars as of late.

Concept


Reality


I challenge you to show me a another production car that came as close to the concept from a mainstream manufacturer recently.

[KA24DESOneThree]

The MR2 Spyder (ZZW30) stopped production 14 years ago.

Porsche's Boxster is still around and starts at $49k.

I'd rather an absolute stripper Boxster manual than a C8.

[ronmcdon]

It starts at 59k now and good luck not getting reamed with expensive options. other than that, great choice.


RX-8 has not aged well at all.

[exitspeed]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

The MR2 Spyder (ZZW30) stopped production 14 years ago.

Porsche's Boxster is still around and starts at $49k.

I'd rather an absolute stripper Boxster manual than a C8.

Haha, I actually totally blocked out the last gen MR2.

[simmode1]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

RX-8 has not aged well at all.

They're not that bad at all. At least visually. Coilovers, wheels & you're just about there. Just gotta get rid of the Renesis.

[LoneStarSilvia]

Originally Posted by simmode1

They're not that bad at all. At least visually. Coilovers, wheels & you're just about there. Just gotta get rid of the Renesis.

The R3's are quite nice, I wouldn't kick one out of bed. Some key revisions went into the refresh models but I agree, the Renesis is an absolute turd. Shame we got shafted on the Spirit R again.

[simmode1]

Originally Posted by LoneStarSilvia

The R3's are quite nice, I wouldn't kick one out of bed. Some key revisions went into the refresh models but I agree, the Renesis is an absolute turd. Shame we got shafted on the Spirit R again.

Yeah, I love looking at RX8s that are sitting nicely on some good wheels. I wouldn't mind having one if the engine swap choices were a little better. It's like, anything other than the LSx is just dumb. But as it is, I'd have a hard time justifying one over the NC Miata which is looking nice with all these turbo 2.5L MZR swapped cars popping up. Can't wait until the BMW crowd irons on all the kinks of the N54 into E46/E85 swap too. That'll be fun.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by simmode1

Yeah, I love looking at RX8s that are sitting nicely on some good wheels. I wouldn't mind having one if the engine swap choices were a little better. It's like, anything other than the LSx is just dumb.

Wait, Are you saying that's not the case?..

Originally Posted by simmode1

But as it is, I'd have a hard time justifying one over the NC Miata which is looking nice with all these turbo 2.5L MZR swapped cars popping up. Can't wait until the BMW crowd irons on all the kinks of the N54 into E46/E85 swap too. That'll be fun.

I'm kinda at a point that if it needs an engine swap, it's trash. Why swap a Miata when you can buy a Boxster, Z4 or Corvette?

[ronmcdon]

if you’re going to have to pour all that money in for a swap and all those mods for the car to be less offensive, I just think its worthwhile to spend more on something you’d be happy with from the outse, like even an NB or NC miata.

I just dont see how the rx-8 makes much sense given there’s so many better options out there. its also possibly one of the worst deaigns ever to come out of mazda. the proportions are just all wrong like the pre-facelift NC miata. both are like hotdogs on wheels.

[KA24DESOneThree]

A Miata doesn't need an engine swap. Slow car fast.

I drive cars with 60-95hp on the regular. I still find ways to enjoy them, sometimes immensely.

[dorkidori_s13]

Originally Posted by ka24desonethree

a miata doesn't need an engine swap. Slow car fast.

BUT LS BRO!!! HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO DO MAD BRO DAWG SKIDS WITH 100HP?! DATV8LIFETHO!

i hate what the import scene has become...

[LoneStarSilvia]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

I just dont see how the rx-8 makes much sense given there’s so many better options out there. its also possibly one of the worst deaigns ever to come out of mazda. the proportions are just all wrong like the pre-facelift NC miata. both are like hotdogs on wheels.

I'm going to have to beg to differ with you on that one. The chassis itself is no slouch and probably one of the better designs, the R3/Spirit R interiors are also really nice.

It's just that weezball of an engine that was huge disappointment, the way its built left very little in the way of porting and boosting, the mainstays of powerful rotaries.

[feito]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

A Miata doesn't need an engine swap. Slow car fast.

I drive cars with 60-95hp on the regular. I still find ways to enjoy them, sometimes immensely.

qft
I mean, make it a compact, add a stick and three pedals, and as long as you know how to get the most out of the stock engine (asthmatic in my case), it can still be kinda fun.

Hell, Im having a lot of fun in my current dd, a stock 2.3 5spd mazda3

[[240sx]]

Originally Posted by feito

Hell, Im having a lot of fun in my current dd, a stock 2.3 5spd mazda3

Damn Mazda for not adding a sunroof to the MS3. Gotta go to the Focus ST for that.


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[Future240]

Y’all acting like we all haven’t had tons of fun in our stock s-chassis.

I accept the s-chassis needs a built ka-t or swap to be a fast car. Relatively speaking it’s swaps are cheap. It’s in a unique position where SR20’s are basically bolt in.

That being said fuck that with other cars. The rx-8, the frs/brz and miatas are cars that IMO are not for people that want fast cars. Now if you want to drive a great handling car by all means.

[feito]

Originally Posted by [240sx]

Damn Mazda for not adding a sunroof to the MS3. Gotta go to the Focus ST for that.


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not even a ms3, just an m3

Which is the whole point, pretty weak engine, yet the car's still enjoyable. I cant stop thinking about boosting it though.

[S14rebuild]

All these new cars, not a single one peakd my liking, said dam i really want one of those. Ehhh maybe im just picky but seems like oems are just putn shit out there...nothing made for the true enthusiast.

[[240sx]]

Originally Posted by S14rebuild

Ehhh maybe im just picky....

Definitely being picky..

Originally Posted by S14rebuild

..nothing made for the true enthusiast.

Miatas, BRZ/FRS, Fiat 500 - SS's, GT's,Boxster, Hellkitties, etc.

Originally Posted by S14rebuild

Ehhh maybe im just picky....

QFT

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by Future240

Y’all acting like we all haven’t had tons of fun in our stock s-chassis.

I accept the s-chassis needs a built ka-t or swap to be a fast car. Relatively speaking it’s swaps are cheap. It’s in a unique position where SR20’s are basically bolt in.

That being said fuck that with other cars. The rx-8, the frs/brz and miatas are cars that IMO are not for people that want fast cars. Now if you want to drive a great handling car by all means.

Gotta disagree with all the "slow car fast" nonsense.

To a degree this is true, but chasis dynamics often require a minimum level of power.

A '69 Roadrunner may only make 250whp with that big 383 and ran like a 14.8 in the 1/4. But a combination if instant torque, roaring engine, garbage tires, loose suspension and frantic steering made it an absolute thrill ride.


Fast forward to today's silent running cars that effortlessly make their way down highways with minimal wind noise and discomfort, and yeah, 200hp feels gutless.

Couple that with every soccor mom drives a +300hp V6 sedan, van or SUV that will run 14's, brakes reasonable well and even handles well... 200hp just feels economy car sad.

Lastly, good example, the 200hp 986 and 987 Boxsters are amazing drivers cars. The flat six sounds outstanding, revs effortlessly and makes excellt torque. However, they just feel like they are missing something.

Enter the Boxster S. That magical S gives you not only clear turn signals but also a 50hp bump that magically transforms the car into a thrill ride.

Hondas are the same. A D15 sucks balls, but that B16/B18 or even better, K20/24 swap just turns it into a sheer blast.

You mentions the S13/14, another perfect example. The US market had a lackluster, uninspiring KA24 with 140-155hp. These sold as commuter cars and secretary mobiles.

Meanwhile in Japan, that boost to 205hp made these the JDM Mustang and sold as hot rods and sports cars. Popularity for US Tuners didn't take off until the late 90's as engine swaps became available.

FRBZ86 suffers this fate. The chasis is just to damn good for a lack luster, boring ass 200hp engine. The engine lacks the torque and growl of a Porsche 2.5, it lacks the tunability of a SR20 or 4G63, and it doesn't even have the wail and the rush of a Honda Vtec.

Articles are cropping up and it sounds like the dumbasses in JDM Land are refusing to accept defeat. Gen 2 maybe a FA24 making... Wait for it... 260hp. Again, uncompetitive in this segment.

[ronmcdon]

slow car fast makes sense.

It's kinda dependent on the way you drive and level of skill I think. I had a lot of fun tracking & autoX an NA miata with stock power from the wimpy 1.6l. I've daily driven a stock engine crx si and currently daily drive a civic hybrid. All my daily drivers have been right around 120hp and have been fun save merging on the freeway. For driving in the city I think being nimble is more fun than being powerful.

I will also agree once you get something more powerful the other cars also lose their magic, but what is really powerful isn't always so confidence inspiring. right now I have relatively stock civic hybrid, an evo, and a zl1, cars at very different power levels. they all have character and frustrations in their own way. The civic I push very hard on windy roads, the zl-1 I have to be cautious and white knuckle it, the evo in between. The evo also gets bad heat soak on the track and it seems like I'm just momentum driving a heavier miata. There's no real wrong approach.

[Dutchmalmiss]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

slow car fast makes sense.

It's kinda dependent on the way you drive and level of skill I think. I had a lot of fun tracking & autoX an NA miata with stock power from the wimpy 1.6l. I've daily driven a stock engine crx si and currently daily drive a civic hybrid. All my daily drivers have been right around 120hp and have been fun save merging on the freeway. For driving in the city I think being nimble is more fun than being powerful.

I will also agree once you get something more powerful the other cars also lose their magic, but what is really powerful isn't always so confidence inspiring. right now I have relatively stock civic hybrid, an evo, and a zl1, cars at very different power levels. they all have character and frustrations in their own way. The civic I push very hard on windy roads, the zl-1 I have to be cautious and white knuckle it, the evo in between. The evo also gets bad heat soak on the track and it seems like I'm just momentum driving a heavier miata. There's no real wrong approach.

Agreed. Not all of us are professional drivers/racers nor do all of us have the same preferences in what defines a car as "fun to drive" or "fast." I could give two shits about a Hellcat because an MX-5 appeals more to me, but I still respect the hell out of a Hellcat because it does exactly what it was built to do. I just prefer slower cars because of the safer amount of room for error while I, as confident as I am in my driving techniques, still have to consider myself an amateur. That said, "slow car fast" has the scales tipped towards feeling more in control/safe at a slower car's limits/thresholds vs a faster car's limits/thresholds. I don't even know if that makes sense, but it makes sense to me.

200hp feels sad nowadays because all these cars are heavy as fuck. high-torque at low-rpm is pretty dime-a-dozen now to make the weight not as 'felt' at least off the line. My fucking prius plug-in feels so much faster than the G20 I previously had. Not mad at that at all, other than the soon-to-be-corrected sushi status body roll.

[KA24DESOneThree]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Gotta disagree with all the "slow car fast" nonsense.

To a degree this is true, but chasis dynamics often require a minimum level of power.

A '69 Roadrunner may only make 250whp with that big 383 and ran like a 14.8 in the 1/4. But a combination if instant torque, roaring engine, garbage tires, loose suspension and frantic steering made it an absolute thrill ride.

Lastly, good example, the 200hp 986 and 987 Boxsters are amazing drivers cars. The flat six sounds outstanding, revs effortlessly and makes excellt torque. However, they just feel like they are missing something.

You mentions the S13/14, another perfect example. The US market had a lackluster, uninspiring KA24 with 140-155hp. These sold as commuter cars and secretary mobiles.

Meanwhile in Japan, that boost to 205hp made these the JDM Mustang and sold as hot rods and sports cars. Popularity for US Tuners didn't take off until the late 90's as engine swaps became available.

FRBZ86 suffers this fate. The chasis is just to damn good for a lack luster, boring ass 200hp engine. The engine lacks the torque and growl of a Porsche 2.5, it lacks the tunability of a SR20 or 4G63, and it doesn't even have the wail and the rush of a Honda Vtec.

Dude... a 163hp S13 hatch that weighs 2400lbs will do a 14.2 in the quarter with a 4.636 rear and you'll likely have fun doing it. Plus it stops and turns and can stay sideways as long as you want it to. Oh, and you can hammer on it all day at the track when it's 120 degrees out, so when everyone else is seeking shade, you can stay out for half a tank.

The FT86 is let down by lackluster steering. Drive an E36 M3, or a tight S-chassis, then drive an FT86. The difference in driver involvement is night and day. Unfortunately, it was the car drivers "needed" and got unfairly categorized as a great driver's car when it was merely okay.

I keep realizing that I'm in the Chosen Land with regards to roads. Northern SD County/southern Riverside County roads are the great equalizer- they're all about shot placement, not caliber. I have thousands of miles in vintage sports cars around here and it's simply amazing how much fun a car can be with 130hp, no sway bars, and vintage-style 185/70R15s because you can steer it with the throttle at 30mph.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

Dude... a 163hp S13 hatch that weighs 2400lbs will do a 14.2 in the quarter with a 4.636 rear and you'll likely have fun doing it. Plus it stops and turns and can stay sideways as long as you want it to. Oh, and you can hammer on it all day at the track when it's 120 degrees out, so when everyone else is seeking shade, you can stay out for half a tank.

Dude, you like CNN at Prime Time. Just all fake news.

240sx was 2,700+ pounds, had shit brakes and spungy suspension. VLSD sucks balls, if you had one and the KA24 will boil if you work it hard.

Regardless, the engine is dog shit. There is reason every one turbos it or swaps it. SR20 was smoother, stronger and overall the correct match for the car.

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

The FT86 is let down by lackluster steering. Drive an E36 M3, or a tight S-chassis, then drive an FT86. The difference in driver involvement is night and day. Unfortunately, it was the car drivers "needed" and got unfairly categorized as a great driver's car when it was merely okay.

Put down the pipe. The M3 weights nearly the same as a FRZGT86 with a screaming I6 that made 40-116 more HP and an extra 60ft/tq.

The Toybaru's engine is a lackluster gutless turd. It's 2019, people want boost. Even Honda boosted the Si.

Power needs to match the car. An AP2 is fun, a RX8 is gutless. A 986 S is awesome, a FRS is not.

[KA24DESOneThree]

My KA never had any problems. Southern California- 60k miles of commutes, fun runs and track days. Did multiple 100+ degree track days; I preferred them because of the run times and relative lack of traffic. Kept the timing in check, refreshed coolant yearly, ran a Koyo rad.

The E36 M3 isn't involving because it makes more horsepower, it's involving because the steering is phenomenal (albeit slow for tight work), the car is compliant while maintaining agility, and the rear geometry combined with the rear differential settings make it rotate in a way a stock, 3200lb car shouldn't. If one were to replicate the exact same magic in a 318iS, it would be just as good.

The FT86 is 400lbs lighter and it felt that way, but it also felt hilariously poorly damped, with average steering. Skittishness isn't a plus. I didn't have a problem with the powerplant, although it was a little coarse for my liking.

You know what's my phone background? A Peugeot 106 Rallye. I put it there while building my first production restomod for my company. It reminds me that tactility is important, that even though I built a car with a sledgehammer of an engine, I needed it to be fun everywhere. Cars with big power often forget about the "everywhere" part and then start adding stiffness and grip, which makes them no fun where I have my fun. I always ask people who want to build cars what their daily driver is and what their driving roads are like. Those two questions help me figure out how to build their car.

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

slow car fast makes sense.

It's kinda dependent on the way you drive and level of skill I think. I had a lot of fun tracking & autoX an NA miata with stock power from the wimpy 1.6l. I've daily driven a stock engine crx si and currently daily drive a civic hybrid. All my daily drivers have been right around 120hp and have been fun save merging on the freeway. For driving in the city I think being nimble is more fun than being powerful.

I will also agree once you get something more powerful the other cars also lose their magic, but what is really powerful isn't always so confidence inspiring. right now I have relatively stock civic hybrid, an evo, and a zl1, cars at very different power levels. they all have character and frustrations in their own way. The civic I push very hard on windy roads, the zl-1 I have to be cautious and white knuckle it, the evo in between. The evo also gets bad heat soak on the track and it seems like I'm just momentum driving a heavier miata. There's no real wrong approach.

This is all interesting as people whine about the FT86 and its not that the HP is lacking its the lack of torque that really takes away from the car.
Definitely slow car fast is where the FiST on a mere tune I am pulling down 27o ft lbs of torque and 220 hp. Out of a fricken 1.6 liter.
I can’t begin to stop talking about it as its so fun and quick for the money and runs the backroads faster than cars twice its price.
Yet most here ignore it lol. I guess that just makes it all better as only in the know get it.
There are actually Miata owners that also own FiSTs and call them 4 door Miata
‘S this is not your dads FWD hell its not even your kid brothers FWD. lol
Ya fact is a lot of the modern cars do bore me FiST does not. It’s the weight of S13 and has power and torque like a SR powered S13 with boost turned up. Add a different Turbo and 300 whp is yours.
No engine swaps, I would say I do cast eyes at Caymen’s might even buy one. In fact everytime I think of FT86 I think naw Caymen,
Though while some may call the C8 generic its actually intriguing . I would say the jury is still out on this one.

Go back to arguing guys.