The Future Automotive Thread

[KA24DESOneThree]

Honda sold about 258k Preludes from 1988 to 1996. Nissan sold 251k 240SXs from 1989 to 1998.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by BOROSUN

lol how old is this kid? 240sx was a flop. 300zx was a flop.

Define "Flop".

Overall Sales Number?
Market Share?
Profit/Revenue - ROI?
Brand Value?
Sales% of overall production?
Conquest Sales?
Legacy?





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[cdlong]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...awd-prototype/

I have had absolutely zero interest in any Nissan in years, but this had me at least checking them out. I don't know what my next car will be, but this is far closer than most things out there. I'm more interested in the Leaf version, but the Ariya, which I've never heard of until this article, is much closer to the general population's preferences.

[ronmcdon]

I lost interest the momsnt I saw the word crossover, but I do think its a good choice business wise.

really wish nissan would make something comparable to the $40k base model 3 sedan (215 mi range, rwd, 5.5 sec 0-60). have driven a model 3 performance (parents’ car) and it is kinda a souless car, but hard to find a better benchmark ev today.

with ev’s I think you really have to drive one and decide if you like them. Some people love them and I thought I would, but the lack of any engine sound, sense of isolation, odd feedback just feels wrong to me.

[BOROSUN]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

Honda sold about 258k Preludes from 1988 to 1996. Nissan sold 251k 240SXs from 1989 to 1998.

where you getting those sale numbers? preludes from 88-98 was close to 300k. not including higher sales 70K+ on previous years. the numbers I added on the 240sx didn't even come close to 250k.

look. nissan failed the 240sx. just face it.
Nissan fail to segment it. it should had more/better motor options and better packages. I would had put the 240sx under infiniti starting with s13.

the integra is what nissan should had been aiming for. the teg pull great numbers even thru the suv crisis


instead they make cars like this...

why does it have a sr and the s13 doesnt? it boggles my mind.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by BOROSUN

.
the integra is what nissan should had been aiming for. the teg pull great numbers even thru the suv crisis

instead they make cars like this...

why does it have a sr and the s13 doesnt? it boggles my mind.

NX2000 and Sentra SE-R had N/A SR20's that made all of 140hp and zero torque to the KA24DE's 155hp and gobs of torque.

Nissan didn't want to use a turbo engine because it would have increased the cars price, been a PITA to pass EPA requirements and competed with the more lucrative 300ZX N/A.

All the Japanese of the 90's water down their cars in the US to save money, keep MSRP lower and skirt by emissions.

Why didn't we get 1JZ MKIIIs and SC300s?

Why didn't we get 5spd MKIV Turbos?

Why didn't we get AWD N/A 3000GTs?

Why didn't we get WRXs and STi?

Why didn't we get Civic SI-Rs, B16s and Type-Rs?

Why did we have N/A FC RX-7s?

Why didn't we get later Alltrac Celica?

Why didn't diesel 4runner, Montero, Land Cruisers, etc

Why did we get the Tacoma instead of the Helix?



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[Corbic]

Alps, it's funny to bring up the Prelude and Integra, as both fucking died as well.

Integra became the RSX and was essentially rolled into the 8th Gen Civic Si Coupe.

Prelude was basically replaced by the.. Wait for it, Accord Coupe Sport.

Honda, the GM of Japan... GREAT engines, Meh Cars.

Then again Toyota is also the GM of Japan, one great engine (2JZ/LSX) that you swap into just about anything but a Toyota or Chevy.



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[dorkidori_s13]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Nissan didn't want to use a turbo engine because it would have increased the cars price, been a PITA to pass EPA requirements and competed with the more lucrative 300ZX N/A.

it had NOTHING to do with EPA, CA18det was already in planning (hence why ALL S13s have SMIC brackets) aaaand it had EVERYTHING to do with the lack of the Skyline.

thats it!

[mechanicalmoron]

Originally Posted by BOROSUN

where you getting those sale numbers? preludes from 88-98 was close to 300k. not including higher sales 70K+ on previous years. the numbers I added on the 240sx didn't even come close to 250k.

look. nissan failed the 240sx. just face it.
Nissan fail to segment it. it should had more/better motor options and better packages. I would had put the 240sx under infiniti starting with s13.

the integra is what nissan should had been aiming for. the teg pull great numbers even thru the suv crisis

why does it have a sr and the s13 doesnt? it boggles my mind.

Idolizing that tiny flimsy unsupported engine which isn't big enough for anything but a fucking 914 boggles my mind. The 240 has a tougher, bigger motor, with way better drivability characteristics. The engine option didn't kill the 240, even if it didn't save it from itself.

People are always quick to point out that there's american reasons leading japanese companies to not import turbo cars - that's pretty stupid, without also mentioning that there's simply different market forces there, which cause car manufacturers to make turbo cars - it's not because it's the peak of all that is performance, it's the engine equivalent of a fucking coolbox in your glovebox.

The SR has done more to contribute to the destruction of every last fucking 240 than just about anything else. It lets you start with a clean 240 and modify it to make less usable power and be an illegal unfixable undiagnosable heap of worthless shit, and think that you're making progress, before destroying it and moving to the next.

[dorkidori_s13]

Originally Posted by mechanicalmoron

The SR has done more to contribute to the destruction of every last fucking 240 than just about anything else. It lets you start with a clean 240 and modify it to make less usable power and be an illegal unfixable undiagnosable heap of worthless shit, and think that you're making progress, before destroying it and moving to the next.

i hope youre joking...

[Future240]

Originally Posted by mechanicalmoron

Drifting has done more to contribute to the destruction of every last fucking 240 than just about anything else. It lets you start with a clean 240 and modify it to make less usable power and be an illegal unfixable undiagnosable heap of worthless shit, and think that you're making progress, before destroying it and moving to the next.

Fixed......

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by mechanicalmoron

Idolizing that tiny flimsy unsupported engine which isn't big enough for anything but a fucking 914 boggles my mind. The 240 has a tougher, bigger motor, with way better drivability characteristics. The engine option didn't kill the 240, even if it didn't save it from itself.

240sx remained unpopular until the advent of the SR20 swap.

Originally Posted by mechanicalmoron

People are always quick to point out that there's american reasons leading japanese companies to not import turbo cars - that's pretty stupid, without also mentioning that there's simply different market forces there, which cause car manufacturers to make turbo cars - it's not because it's the peak of all that is performance, it's the engine equivalent of a fucking coolbox in your glovebox.

Uh, lolwut.

The KA24E/DE was used because it was already certified for US emissions and a very affordable engine to build. The CA18DET was a rather expensive engine which prompted Nissan to go to the SR in the first place. The SR remained more complex and expensive then the KA, turbos and SMIC are not free dude.

The MSRP of a 240sx in 1991 was $14,334 running up to $16k. Compare that to a 180sx which cost 1.8M yen to 2.1M yen N/A and turbo cars running up too 2.6M yen.

In 1991, Yen to Dollar was 131/1, by 1995 it was 83/1, again driving up costs.

So that SR 180sx cost $20k in the US. A 300ZX was $26k for a N/A car.

Now calculate inflation.

1991 $15k = $28k in 2019 (240sx)
1991 $20k = $38k in 2019 (180sx)
1991 $26k = 49k in 2019 (300zx N/A)
1991 $37k = $70k in 2019 (R32 GTR)


This is also why our Coupe didn't get projectors, it would lower the headlight pattern, require an additional set of crash testing and the lights cost significantly more.

Originally Posted by mechanicalmoron

The SR has done more to contribute to the destruction of every last fucking 240 than just about anything else. It lets you start with a clean 240 and modify it to make less usable power and be an illegal unfixable undiagnosable heap of worthless shit, and think that you're making progress, before destroying it and moving to the next.

SR certainly made the car popular.

SR certainly contributed to thousands of dreamers trashing cars and never finishing projects.

However, without the popularity, the car would have seen the same fate. Neglected, abused and scrapped as they rust out.(see NX200, etc)





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[BryanSayWhat]

Originally Posted by Corbic

240sx remained unpopular until the advent of the SR20 swap.

SR certainly made the car popular.

SR certainly contributed to thousands of dreamers trashing cars and never finishing projects.

This.

People rightfully mention drifting as one of the reasons for the 240sx raising in popularity, but another one is definitely Honda guys and more finding out about SR20DET swaps and JDM front ends.

I was just reading through one of my old Super Streets from 2008 and even they referenced how "unpopular" the 240sx once was, before the SR20DET craze...



Discussing the Prelude (4th & 5th gen)... I think it did well with business men that simply wanted something sporty to commute with until they wound up needing a bigger vehicle (wife/ kids), or they simply upgraded to a BMW/ Mercedes.

My dad was one of them. lol

[BOROSUN]

weak. The sr20 was available. the 240sx was +20k.
Under infiniti it would have been fine with the z32 around.

The teg/rsx had strong sales. I bet it will come back after ctr settles down.

[KA24DESOneThree]

Originally Posted by BOROSUN

where you getting those sale numbers? preludes from 88-98 was close to 300k. not including higher sales 70K+ on previous years. the numbers I added on the 240sx didn't even come close to 250k.

240SX quarter-mil support: https://www.s-chassis.com/forums/gen...numbers-33374/ and https://frsport.com/240SX_t_39.html

But also, as a counterpoint: https://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=513402 and https://www.nissanclub.com/threads/2...-stats.202206/ . Killer2001 said he had access to the VIN database, so his numbers may well be correct.

Prelude sales numbers: https://www.preludeonline.com/f28/pr...umbers-173446/

Nothing official.

There's also Fox Sports, which says over two million 240SXs made for US market. I'm attaching for lulz. https://www.foxsports.com/motor/stor...n-240sx-022415

[mechanicalmoron]

Originally Posted by Corbic

240sx remained unpopular until the advent of the SR20 swap.




Uh, lolwut.

The KA24E/DE was used because it was already certified for US emissions and a very affordable engine to build. The CA18DET was a rather expensive engine which prompted Nissan to go to the SR in the first place. The SR remained more complex and expensive then the KA, turbos and SMIC are not free dude.

The MSRP of a 240sx in 1991 was $14,334 running up to $16k. Compare that to a 180sx which cost 1.8M yen to 2.1M yen N/A and turbo cars running up too 2.6M yen.

In 1991, Yen to Dollar was 131/1, by 1995 it was 83/1, again driving up costs.

So that SR 180sx cost $20k in the US. A 300ZX was $26k for a N/A car.

Now calculate inflation.

1991 $15k = $28k in 2019 (240sx)
1991 $20k = $38k in 2019 (180sx)
1991 $26k = 49k in 2019 (300zx N/A)
1991 $37k = $70k in 2019 (R32 GTR)


This is also why our Coupe didn't get projectors, it would lower the headlight pattern, require an additional set of crash testing and the lights cost significantly more.




SR certainly made the car popular.

SR certainly contributed to thousands of dreamers trashing cars and never finishing projects.

However, without the popularity, the car would have seen the same fate. Neglected, abused and scrapped as they rust out.(see NX200, etc)





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The sr was just more popular with a second (and every subsequent) wave of immature cheapskates, but never compared to the new popularity of the car, because.... there's nowhere near as many cars on the used market as were on the new market, obviously, especially at any one time. The car didn't sell well to the automotive enthusiast market for a few reasons, and none of them is not getting the tiny turbo engines from other markets, no matter what motor trend will repeat at you. It got resold to the boy-racer market, so you see the boy-racer swap being popular after the first owners.

They can say it's not popular, but it sold all those cars, and only the trickle of motors from destroyed cars over there could even end up in cars over here, they're just saying that some dude writing a magazine article didn't like it, it doesn't mean fewer people were driving them, obviously more people were driving them, even if you don't identify with the kinds of people who bought them. The things that the automotive press will tell you about what sells cars are pure ego-stroking fantasy.

As to all cars being destroyed, that's true, but if you accelerate it, it sure doesn't help yourself have fun...

The SR cost more, and? There's all sorts of things that dictate what you sell where, beyond cost, like what's expected or what you're trying to do in that market. The KA was not as desirable a motor for japan for reasons that don't apply here, and it was ready to go here.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by mechanicalmoron

The sr was just more popular with a second (and every subsequent) wave of immature cheapskates, but never compared to the new popularity of the car, because.... there's nowhere near as many cars on the used market as were on the new market, obviously, especially at any one time. The car didn't sell well to the automotive enthusiast market for a few reasons, and none of them is not getting the tiny turbo engines from other markets, no matter what motor trend will repeat at you. It got resold to the boy-racer market, so you see the boy-racer swap being popular after the first owners.

They can say it's not popular, but it sold all those cars, and only the trickle of motors from destroyed cars over there could even end up in cars over here, they're just saying that some dude writing a magazine article didn't like it, it doesn't mean fewer people were driving them, obviously more people were driving them, even if you don't identify with the kinds of people who bought them. The things that the automotive press will tell you about what sells cars are pure ego-stroking fantasy.

As to all cars being destroyed, that's true, but if you accelerate it, it sure doesn't help yourself have fun...

The SR cost more, and? There's all sorts of things that dictate what you sell where, beyond cost, like what's expected or what you're trying to do in that market. The KA was not as desirable a motor for japan for reasons that don't apply here, and it was ready to go here.

English as a second language? I have no idea what you are arguing.

I listed why Nissan did not sell the Turbocharged versions of the S13 and S14. It's not conjecture, it's the truth.

All the Japanese brands where forced at the end of the 90's to globalized their platforms and cut the fat. Goshen combined the S15 and Z32 into one car, the 350Z and killed wasteful programs like the GT-R.



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[exitspeed]

Some interesting news, the 86 is going to be renamed GR86 and they’re getting more power.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/next...-name-details/

I really really like the look of the corolla hatch. I’d love to see that kinda look with the new GR86.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by exitspeed

Some interesting news, the 86 is going to be renamed GR86 and they’re getting more power.



https://www.motortrend.com/news/next...-name-details/



I really really like the look of the corolla hatch. I’d love to see that kinda look with the new GR86.

Dumb.

Rename it Celica for the US Market.

All of 800 people get the 86 reference, and only 4 of them care.


Celica was always a popular car, it was killed to make room for Scion, which ultimately failed.



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[Dutchmalmiss]

Also, I didn't realize this was officially happening. Factory turbo 4cyl GR Supra in Europe. No pricing announced, but will probably sell in the mid-$40k area.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2020/01/14/t...too-in-europe/

[exitspeed]

the name has never bothered me honestly. Even when it was a Scion I could dig it.

Also, new Genesis coupe teased today.
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/01/15/...future-lineup/

[ronmcdon]

whats dissapointing to me is Subaru building the powerplant and no forced induction options. subarus defintion of ‘power increases’ is not confidence inspiring at all. wish toyota would make their own engine.

Still, this is a huge positive. I dont think the 86 was selling all that great and glad the cars still being made

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

whats dissapointing to me is Subaru building the powerplant and no forced induction options. subarus defintion of ‘power increases’ is not confidence inspiring at all. wish toyota would make their own engine.

Still, this is a huge positive. I dont think the 86 was selling all that great and glad the cars still being made

I guess it remains to be seen what a "next generation" in tails.

I wouldn't exactly call the 2014 Tundra and 2016 Tacoma "new generations", but the industry let it slide.





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[Corbic]

Originally Posted by exitspeed

the name has never bothered me honestly. Even when it was a Scion I could dig it.

Also, new Genesis coupe teased today.
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/01/15/...future-lineup/

Scion and names never bothered me either. The issue is getting the American public to emotionally connect with the car and buy it.

A lot is lost with Alphabet Soup names and few ever gather cache.

Ford understands this and it's why a Mustang Cobra became a Shelby and why the new electric SUV is being called a Mustang.



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[spooled240]

Originally Posted by exitspeed

Some interesting news, the 86 is going to be renamed GR86 and they’re getting more power.



https://www.motortrend.com/news/next...-name-details/



I really really like the look of the corolla hatch. I’d love to see that kinda look with the new GR86.

According to Autocar, the remedy for the lack of power will come via forced induction. Specifically, the automakers plan on using a modified version of the 2.4-liter turbocharged four-cylinder currently powering the Subaru Ascent, Outback, and Legacy. In the Ascent, that engine makes 260 horsepower, significantly more than the naturally aspirated 2.0-liter in today's 86 and BRZ. Both companies are said to realize drivers want the power of a beefier engine without sacrificing the immediacy of a naturally aspirated one, however it remains to be seen how well they ultimately strike that balance.

I'm surprised they are going with the much larger 2.4 and not the 2.0 from the wrx. You can't complain about a larger motor and boost.

[BryanSayWhat]

Originally Posted by spooled240

I'm surprised they are going with the much larger 2.4 and not the 2.0 from the wrx. You can't complain about a larger motor and boost.

Prime Motoring made 502whp & 484 lb-ft @ 22.1psi (E85) in their swapped Crosstrek using an OEM Ascent (FA24DIT) long block w/ ARP head studs:



A lot more info here on NASIOC: Prime Motoring's FA24DIT 500+ whp build (stock block)

[spooled240]

Very neat. It's almost like they were just tired of the complaints and are now going overboard to address the lack of power, I love it.

This new GR86 will be the true successor to the Silvia K's/Spec R..that is if they still offer a manual transmission option lol

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by spooled240

Very neat. It's almost like they were just tired of the complaints and are now going overboard to address the lack of power, I love it.

This new GR86 will be the true successor to the Silvia K's/Spec R..that is if they still offer a manual transmission option lol

I'm still Skeptical.



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[exitspeed]

Shit I don’t even want 500hp.

If this thing looks the part, comes in a stick (I believe it will), has 250ish hp and around the same weight and cost, I’m getting one.

[[240sx]]

Originally Posted by spooled240

I'm surprised they are going with the much larger *2.4* and not the 2.0...

Originally Posted by spooled240

This new GR86 will be the true successor to the *S-Chassis*

Toyota 240GR. [emoji848]

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