JDM Engine Prices - Covid or Demand?

[SupaDoopa]

I'll never understand people who pay stupid money for stupid things unless you're restoring something or a purist - even then, we probably won't see eye to eye which I guess is okay. But for us that are always seeking 'more reliable power,' there is so much more out there. The initial cost for brackets and hardware and shit may shy some away, but throwing in a $300 junkyard motor one after the other with endless supply both of engines and parts is too hard to pass up.

[Whitey13]

Originally Posted by Future240

Engine prices are crazy. I saw a beat up notchtop on ebay a few days ago for over 8k that I doubt would run with zero issues.

It's to the point where one could bullet proof a KA or swap in an lsx for less money than just the drive train.

I see the same notchtops you're referring to for sale online and I also see that they've been for sale for a long time.

If you look at the ebay history some of them have been "sold" but they're up for sale again. Could be the buyers flaked or that the engine has some demons. Tough pill to swallow at $8K either way.

[SupaDoopa]

I recently sold my complete swap - including transmission, clutch, driveshaft, FMIC, literally EVERYTHING - for $4,500 and it took my literally months. I don't know how someone can ask $8,000 for something you could have gotten a couple years ago for $3,000 all day. For $8,000, the alternative motors are more stout and reliable with an off-the-shelf solution for every issue. I don't understand [unless you're restoring a car, but even then, it won't be true 'numbers matching'].

[Whitey13]

Agreed.

A brand new LS3 long block is $6,042 from Chevy Performance right now, for example.

[feito]

Originally Posted by SupaDoopa

I recently sold my complete swap - including transmission, clutch, driveshaft, FMIC, literally EVERYTHING - for $4,500 and it took my literally months. I don't know how someone can ask $8,000 for something you could have gotten a couple years ago for $3,000 all day. For $8,000, the alternative motors are more stout and reliable with an off-the-shelf solution for every issue. I don't understand [unless you're restoring a car, but even then, it won't be true 'numbers matching'].

isnt there a v8 vs jdm engine thread already? imo is's just personal taste. why the heck drive an s-chassis in the first place? lots of other platforms out there with way more accesible replacement parts and cheaper. but we like these pieces of shit, so we stick to them. hobbies arent necessaries, and sometimes hobbies are expesive.
the hobbie of liking the sound of l6, turbo, having a beautiful looking engine in your bay just got almost twice as expensive, but nobody is forcing us.

[AKADriver]

Yes, just like any other vintage parts it's in large part because we like keeping the cars 'period correct' as opposed to either 100% original or just whatever is the latest flavor of best. Why build a hot rod with a Buick nailhead instead of an LS? Why build a Fox Body with a 5.0 instead of an LS? etc.

Just like the other thread about resellers, the only thing that mystifies me is really where this demand is that's driving the prices. Again I look around and I see LS and JZ swaps are what's "hot"... so I dunno how a basic bitch redtop SR with a billion miles on it, broken rockers and rod knock goes for $4500. I get the nostalgia market, of course I know him, he's me.

[Corbic]

Inflation is a bitch.

2005 a $2000 Red Top is $3,300 in 2023 dollars.

For comparison a a Ford Ecoboost 2.3 is $3,500 for a long block.

I'm more surprised at how expensive GM LS engines remain despite having millions built. A truck 6.2 is still $4,000.

[dorkidori_s13]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Inflation is a bitch.

2005 a $2000 Red Top is $3,300 in 2023 dollars.

For comparison a a Ford Ecoboost 2.3 is $3,500 for a long block.

I'm more surprised at how expensive GM LS engines remain despite having millions built. A truck 6.2 is still $4,000.

price goes up per liter right? lol

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by dorkidori_s13

price goes up per liter right? lol

I think Japanese inefficiency spoiled people. No US wrecker would sell a complete engine, with accessories, and harness and ECU, and transmission for what the Japanese did.

Here, we strip it down to the long block, selling the manifolds, accessories, harnesses, fuel rails, etc all separate. Selling the trans and ECU separate etc.

I suspect, 20 years ago, people would have gladly paid $3,500+ for an SR20. The only issue was l, why do that when you can pay $2k?

Maybe if this shit was more expensive then, people would have value it more and we'd see more of it today.

[SupaDoopa]

Originally Posted by Corbic

I think Japanese inefficiency spoiled people. No US wrecker would sell a complete engine, with accessories, and harness and ECU, and transmission for what the Japanese did.

Here, we strip it down to the long block, selling the manifolds, accessories, harnesses, fuel rails, etc all separate. Selling the trans and ECU separate etc.

I suspect, 20 years ago, people would have gladly paid $3,500+ for an SR20. The only issue was l, why do that when you can pay $2k?

Maybe if this shit was more expensive then, people would have value it more and we'd see more of it today.

There used to be an importer in NY I'd go to literally every time I got a new S-chassis in for a swap and it would be $1,900 complete - harness, ECU, transmission, etc. The full boat. This was in 2009 or so? If I got more than one, price would go down. Granted the harnesses had cut ends, a replacement harness wasn't expensive if I didn't want to solder in ends off of the motor I pulled. They had them in troves. SRs, RBs, 2Js, etc. This is what people got because at the time, there was no other mainstream option where it was a plug and play [like what we have with SIKKY/Hooker/FUELED/ISR/XYZwhoevermotorswapcompany swap kits now].

I understand the stock is slowly diminishing but there has to be a certain point you have to be like 'hey, there are better, more modern options for less.' If you're building a 'period correct' car, cool. Whatever. Don't read this comment. For everyone else who has a job and wants to go out there sliding without worrying about throwing rocker arms or needing an immediately turbo upgrade just to keep up, this is for you.

Inflation sucks. Spending more money to have something less powerful/reliable sucks worse.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by SupaDoopa

There used to be an importer in NY I'd go to literally every time I got a new S-chassis in for a swap and it would be $1,900 complete - harness, ECU, transmission, etc. The full boat. This was in 2009 or so? If I got more than one, price would go down. Granted the harnesses had cut ends, a replacement harness wasn't expensive if I didn't want to solder in ends off of the motor I pulled. They had them in troves. SRs, RBs, 2Js, etc. This is what people got because at the time, there was no other mainstream option where it was a plug and play [like what we have with SIKKY/Hooker/FUELED/ISR/XYZwhoevermotorswapcompany swap kits now].

I understand the stock is slowly diminishing but there has to be a certain point you have to be like 'hey, there are better, more modern options for less.' If you're building a 'period correct' car, cool. Whatever. Don't read this comment. For everyone else who has a job and wants to go out there sliding without worrying about throwing rocker arms or needing an immediately turbo upgrade just to keep up, this is for you.

Inflation sucks. Spending more money to have something less powerful/reliable sucks worse.

My question is, what happened to all the imported engines? Did they all really end up in the scrapped?

[AKADriver]

Originally Posted by Corbic

My question is, what happened to all the imported engines? Did they all really end up in the scrapped?

They're still out there

A lot of them are in cars, and running

A lot of them are in people's derelict garage furniture, not running. Especially when something expensive breaks that's beyond the skills/budget required to slap in a stock SR swap back when they were cheap.

And most critically a lot of them are sitting for sale on FBM but unlike the JDM engine importers, the private sellers who own them can't easily palletize and freight them to you. I've seen lots of reasonably priced SRs pop up on FBM but they're just in some guy's garage in Georgia or something which is no good if you're nowhere near Georgia.

[SupaDoopa]

Originally Posted by Corbic

My question is, what happened to all the imported engines? Did they all really end up in the scrapped?

Half of them were neglected and JDM cool kids threw rods/destroyed the heads and turned them into tables, a quarter of them are running, and a quarter are sitting on a shelf to either be tossed/built/resold.

[Dirk Jan]

Back in the day the overall second hand market for used parts/engines was a lot more centralized than it is today. For example, here in Europe when I was looking for a certain part I'd just check all the european S-chassis forums and eventually find what I was looking for. Now, with most forums dead or on life support, 5000 different Facebook sales groups, and an absolutely useless FBM search it has become impossible to find stuff. Even if it is out there.

I'm sure the supply for used engines has dropped, but after 5 months of searching all websites I could think of for a SR20 and not being able to search FBM outside my own country I've given up. I think with less and less young people being able to afford to get into this hobby a significant majority of the engines that still exist will just be sitting in peoples garages that have plans to use them one day but life got in the way.

[SupaDoopa]

The dying trend of forums [and for those lifers, we've seen Zilvia fall a few times] is definitely contributing to the scarcity and difficulty to locate stuff. People just don't check this shit like they used to. FBM is absolute garbage.

[Future240]

Originally Posted by AKADriver

And most critically a lot of them are sitting for sale on FBM but unlike the JDM engine importers, the private sellers who own them can't easily palletize and freight them to you. I've seen lots of reasonably priced SRs pop up on FBM but they're just in some guy's garage in Georgia or something which is no good if you're nowhere near Georgia.

Im in GA and I bought a notch top witha spun bearing with transmission (cylinder walls look great) for $400.



I gave up on my dream of an RB swapped S14. It would be just too much money at this point so when I saw the SR I jumped on it.

now its sitting in the workship while I bought swap parts though had to 7pause it as I rebuilding my LM7 for my Silverado first.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by SupaDoopa

The dying trend of forums [and for those lifers, we've seen Zilvia fall a few times] is definitely contributing to the scarcity and difficulty to locate stuff. People just don't check this shit like they used to. FBM is absolute garbage.

Dude. FBM should be considered a crime against humanity. It destroyed Craigslist, and Craigslist was actually at least searchable and free of all that Alibaba garbage ads.

[AKADriver]

Craigslist kind of killed themselves by charging $5 for car listings. I'm sure the business case worked out and that did get rid of all the $2000 Toyota Tacoma with a fake gmail address scam ads (they're all on FBM now) but it also basically killed the entire $1000 beater car market.

The search on FBM is inscrutable. But it's just the most egregious example as everyone's search results are streamlined and massaged heavily now. I can be looking right at a listing, search for the title of the listing, and it won't appear. I've got a set of new in box Hawk brake pads for a ton of Toyota/Scion applications, my eBay listing has been up for literal years even at a drastically lower price than retail because I don't come up in search results.

[StorminMatt]

Originally Posted by Whitey13

Agreed.

A brand new LS3 long block is $6,042 from Chevy Performance right now, for example.

And for $10000, you can get an E-Rod, which is that same LS3 long block with a complete intake manifold and coils, along with a wiring harness, ECU, CATS, charcoal canister, etc. It also comes with CARB number and is California smog legal in any pre-1996 car (sorry, S14 guys). Brand new engine with all the electronics and no smog hassles? Can?t beat that!

Of course, if you want CHEAP, you could also look at Pick-and-Pull for an LH6. This is an aluminum 5.3, somewhat like the L33. But unlike that motor, it came in some obscure stuff such as the Isuzu Ascender and a Saab SUV of some sort. The people who sell these things to Pick-and-Pull don?t know or care that the engine may be somewhat desirable. And nobody thinks to look for an aluminum LS engine in these things. So you can get these motors REALLY cheap.

[SupaDoopa]

Originally Posted by StorminMatt

And for $10000, you can get an E-Rod, which is that same LS3 long block with a complete intake manifold and coils, along with a wiring harness, ECU, CATS, charcoal canister, etc. It also comes with CARB number and is California smog legal in any pre-1996 car (sorry, S14 guys). Brand new engine with all the electronics and no smog hassles? Can?t beat that!

Of course, if you want CHEAP, you could also look at Pick-and-Pull for an LH6. This is an aluminum 5.3, somewhat like the L33. But unlike that motor, it came in some obscure stuff such as the Isuzu Ascender and a Saab SUV of some sort. The people who sell these things to Pick-and-Pull don?t know or care that the engine may be somewhat desirable. And nobody thinks to look for an aluminum LS engine in these things. So you can get these motors REALLY cheap.

This is exactly my point - things can be found for cheaper that are much more modern, reliable, and powerful. The prices that people are asking for some of this shit on FBM and groups, it's crazy. I love the little side comments other people say like 'oh, if I had money, I'd be all over this!' It's a subtle way of saying this shit is expensive and instead of roasting you like Supa would on Zilvia, I'll just spread kindness in the form of passive aggressiveness.

[feito]

Originally Posted by StorminMatt

Of course, if you want CHEAP, you could also look at Pick-and-Pull for an LH6. This is an aluminum 5.3, somewhat like the L33. But unlike that motor, it came in some obscure stuff such as the Isuzu Ascender and a Saab SUV of some sort. The people who sell these things to Pick-and-Pull don?t know or care that the engine may be somewhat desirable. And nobody thinks to look for an aluminum LS engine in these things. So you can get these motors REALLY cheap.

not that im a big fan of v8's.... buuuuut, I did know about the existence of this lh6, and kinda been on look out for one All aluminum 5.3 out of a trailblazer or ascender with accesories for around 600? Thats hard to beat

[SupaDoopa]

A couple years ago when I first started V8'ing literally everything, a true LS1 was around $1,100 fully dressed and a 5.3/5.7/6.0 from a truck was under $500 all day long. Prices haven't swung too much in the North East yet but after you've taken that initial investment of a swap kit and all that, how do you beat tossing in junkyard motors for a couple hundred when they pop rather than trying to source/repair a SR for ten times that just to make less power and it be less reliable? The mindset is what I'm trying to understand.

[AKADriver]

People like different things? lol

[Dirk Jan]

Originally Posted by SupaDoopa

A couple years ago when I first started V8'ing literally everything, a true LS1 was around $1,100 fully dressed and a 5.3/5.7/6.0 from a truck was under $500 all day long. Prices haven't swung too much in the North East yet but after you've taken that initial investment of a swap kit and all that, how do you beat tossing in junkyard motors for a couple hundred when they pop rather than trying to source/repair a SR for ten times that just to make less power and it be less reliable? The mindset is what I'm trying to understand.

While you have a good point from an outright performance per dollar point of view, I think it's fair to say that from that perspective owning an S-chassis is not a reasonable thing anymore to begin with. There's much better chassis out there for considerably less money, and some of them already come with a V8.

With the value of these cars soaring and now reaching collector status, it makes sense to me that people want to build their cars true to the original formula.

[Whitey13]

Originally Posted by Dirk Jan

While you have a good point from an outright performance per dollar point of view, I think it's fair to say that from that perspective owning an S-chassis is not a reasonable thing anymore to begin with. There's much better chassis out there for considerably less money, and some of them already come with a V8.

With the value of these cars soaring and now reaching collector status, it makes sense to me that people want to build their cars true to the original formula.

I don?t think there is any truth to the value of S-chassis? soaring. They saw a bit of a bump during the pandemic but that was an anomaly.

The only documented sales we have are on auction sites like BaT where they rarely exceed $15k for the cleanest of clean examples.

Be it engine prices or entire car prices, people see these asking prices and conflate them with what the sale price is or its true market value.

[KA24DESOneThree]

There is truth, though, that scarcity increases prices. The newest S13 is 29 years old, the oldest 35 years old. The newest SR20DET out of an S15 is 21 years old.

Even the newest RB26 is 21 years old.

Good stuff is drying up. The people who stumble across good stuff at good prices have been looking for a while or have built up a knowledge base and connection base that makes their product worth more.

If I wasn't in the financial doldrums right now because I'm a lazy asshole with too many projects, I'd be in the "willing to pay $20k+ for a very nice S13" camp.

[Whitey13]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

If I wasn't in the financial doldrums right now because I'm a lazy asshole with too many projects, I'd be in the "willing to pay $20k+ for a very nice S13" camp.

As respectfully I can say it; it's easy to say "I'd spend xyz on an S13 if I had the money", It's an extremely rare instance that people actually would.

If you told me a few years ago how much I was going to spend on my S14 over a 2 year period, I would have just bought something like an M3/M4 instead.

[SupaDoopa]

Originally Posted by Whitey13

As respectfully I can say it; it's easy to say "I'd spend xyz on an S13 if I had the money", It's an extremely rare instance that people actually would.

If you told me a few years ago how much I was going to spend on my S14 over a 2 year period, I would have just bought something like an M3/M4 instead.

This is the point I made earlier somewhere - people say they'd spend that money hypothetically if it was just sitting there but that proves nothing. the proof is in the pudding and the evidence.

[KA24DESOneThree]

Originally Posted by Whitey13

As respectfully I can say it; it's easy to say "I'd spend xyz on an S13 if I had the money", It's an extremely rare instance that people actually would.

If you told me a few years ago how much I was going to spend on my S14 over a 2 year period, I would have just bought something like an M3/M4 instead.

My S13 has been a part of my life since 2004. It hasn't moved under its own power in eight years. It's still one of my favorite things that I own and I spent more on it over the 11 years I drove it than I have any other vehicle I've owned, including my modern truck.

I've spent the last several years really thinking about what I want in life. I bought an S13 for a commercial a few years back and it reminded me about how much I enjoyed my car daily. I ended up selling that car because it was going to be way, way too expensive to build into something decent but it reminded me how good the base car is and how much I like the S-chassis in terms of an overall experience.

Every day, I'm able to jump in a Porsche built between 1955 and 2022. I get that experience through work. But I don't have the smells of the car I bought in 2004 and turned into a track car by 2008. I don't have the ergonomics, the little things like the operation of the stalks and the way the doors used to close. I can't put those Porsches on the wheels I loved when I was 20 and still love. Those Porsches weren't on the cover of Doriten and Battle and Option. I wasn't downloading videos of Porsches on KaZaa.

So I'm going to buy an S-chassis and either get the early 911 I own drivable or I'm going to buy a project Elan or Lancia Fulvia. That way I get my vintage car scratch itched and my S-chassis build base bought.

Eventually, I'll be putting an SR in my time attack build. It's not going to make enough power and it's going to be expensive as hell to get where I need it to be, but it's going to make the noises I remember and it's going to finally check the "owned an S-chassis with an SR" box.

[StorminMatt]

Originally Posted by Dirk Jan

While you have a good point from an outright performance per dollar point of view, I think it's fair to say that from that perspective owning an S-chassis is not a reasonable thing anymore to begin with. There's much better chassis out there for considerably less money, and some of them already come with a V8.

With the value of these cars soaring and now reaching collector status, it makes sense to me that people want to build their cars true to the original formula.

Everybody is certainly entitled to their opinion when it comes to this sort of thing. In my case, my brother bought this S13 back in 2000, and I got it from him back in 2010. In other words, it’s not like I’m trying to ACQUIRE a good S13 at today’s market prices for the sake of doing an LS swap. I already have the car, and have had it since well before most anyone considered it anything that special. Should I just restore it to factory condition because that’s what someone else thinks is the right thing to do? I see little point. Dropping an LS3 into the car just has that sense of fun like a crazy science experiment. And the result is going to be a car that performs unlike any 4000+ pound whale of a Mustang, Camaro, or Charger that already comes with a V8.

So I say if you want a V8, GO FOR IT! Project cars are not about doing what is supposedly ‘right’, ‘good’, or ‘proper’. Because all that stuff is boring anyway. Oh, and let’s not forget that, even if you go for something ‘appropriate’ like an SR swap, you’re altering your car. Although the engine DID come in the S chassis, it didn’t come in YOUR car. You are still changing the ‘original formula’ and possibly reducing the value compared to something 100% original.