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Engine Tech Technical discussion related to all relevant engines such as KA, SR, RB, CA, 2JZ , L24/26/28, VG, VQ, and LSx series. |
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02-18-2015, 02:09 AM | #1 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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Building a "driveable" and "stealthy" high horsepower SR22DET.
I've recently bought one of "Teigen's" complete block and cylinderhead (not the btcc head and ITB intake). Some of you might remember his build thread:
http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=485782 (Please, keep this thread on topic. I've put together alot of lower horsepower engines using bolt-on parts, but never something like this. So there may be stupid questions.) Quote:
And since this engine would be bulletproof with 400horsepower and good maintance. "Teigen's" plan was to have to have 1000 horsepower in this, for racing. The engine builder said it would be very reliable at 800 horsepower with good maintenance. My original plan with this engine was to use stock intake and stock exhaust manifold with a Garrett GTX2876R, using a engine management with 2 different maps. But I'm now considering more horepower, since I can. I've talked to "Jonus Racing" (this guy) about using Maxxecu engine management so I can have different maps and easily switch between them. "Jonus" also tells me that he can make for example 3 maps, almost stock map, a more fun map and a trackday map. I'm now facing a dilemma. The engine build has to be a bit stealthy, because it's not legal to modify cars a lot in Norway. So this ain't gonna be easy. There is some things that I've got a "good to go" from the DMV in Norway:
I don't think the DMV guy that's controlling the car is gonna care about a aftermarket exhaust manifold (bottom mount) or aftermarket intake manifold. The deal with DMV is that I have to do a mapping on a rolling road, where I can have max 189hp at the wheels. Also I have to do a desibel check, max 90db and also a emission test. The car have to idle and not go rough. "Jonus Racing" says this is no problem. Even if I have 600 horsepower on the third map. Questions: 1. Whats the max horsepower with the stock exhaust manifold and intake manifold if I port the throttle body and extrude hone the intake/exhaust manifolds? 2. Is there any cast bottom mount manifolds that is as good as the tubular? 3. There is a lot of aftermarket intake manifolds, what is the best intake manifold for drivability? The cylinder head must use S13 SR20DET intake. Low end power.. I've looked at the Greddy one, and I think the runners are to short. Thinking alot about a dual plenum manifold: http://www.chrisachilles.com/images/..._intake_04.jpg 4. Is there any turbo that has internal wastegate, where the internal wastegate actually is as good as a external one? Borg-Warner EFR series for example? For bigger hp applications. 5. Do you think it's possible to get the emission down, get the car to run smooth and idle with a 200hp map, if the third map is 600hp? Thank you
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2011 BMW F11 5-series and 2003 Nissan 350Z Last edited by MeSs; 02-18-2015 at 11:15 AM.. |
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02-18-2015, 05:17 AM | #2 |
Nissanaholic!
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You said you have built many engines, and yet you miss basic knowledge about (turbo) engines. A turbo sized for 600hp on a 2L engine will spool poorly and require lower compression and cams, both which will fail emission tests. How can you not know that ? How come your tuner did not tell you ?
A gt2867r on an sr can still be run with very mild cams and high compression, with the right fuel. This nets between 400 and 450whp, with very good drivability. intake manifold. Keep the OEM one, plain and simple. If you worry about visual modifications, then DO NOT CHANGE the intake mani. I also do not believe in 800HP, reliable, drivable 2L engine. 600HP ... might be reliable, although expensive to maintain, but it will not be that drivable. don't expect power under 4000rpm. 1000HP ... nope. Not without nitrous / meth , not without a turbo that would just start to spool at 6000rpm and so on. I have seen 1000HP RBs, they come with 50% more displacement and spin to 11.000rpm. I have seen videos of the 1000+ lan evo too. They have no drivability, nor reliability. They are drag engines. Maps. If your engine is mapped for 600whp, it does not care wether it uses 180, 400 or 600. You don't need 3 maps, you need 3 boost control settings... but you will run into wastegate control issues. If you need 180hp, basically it means using a 0.6bar wastegate. Which, even with the best EBC available, will NEVER be able to control the 2+ bar boost needed for 500+ application. I doubt it will be able to control anything past 1.3/1.4bar. So, first, get your priorities straight. Do you want: -high power output ? -good drivability ? -somewhat cheap maintenance ? -a legal car ? -a daily car ? High power goes in the way of drivability, maintenance and laws. Actually anything north of 300HP will not go to 180HP without having emission tests. So let's face it : you will never use that 180HP setting, except for the DMV. Meaning the car will be illegal after that. Hence, just toss a CA18DET in there for the DMV guys, then swap. The only valid, legal option is get a daily that can tow, and throw that car on a trailer. But you still won't get a drivable 600HP engine. |
02-18-2015, 05:53 AM | #3 | |||||
Zilvia Junkie
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Quote:
My tuner and I only spoke about engine management. Please read the specs, this is the reason why I ask. Quote:
If the stock intake manifold and exhaust manifold, and the GT2867r will go to 450whp, it's good enough.. Quote:
Drivable, that's another thing.. That's one of the main reason why I asked. Thank you for your input Quote:
Quote:
I've considered getting a stock sr20, for the DMV.
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02-18-2015, 06:32 AM | #4 |
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Ok, when you talked about high power builds, i thought more than that. I am currently running a 300hp ish CA18DET, with a gt2560r, e85 and supporting mods (never bothered to make an actual dyno run... i used virtual dynos to map and that was enough)
I don't know about that ECU, maybe it has integrated boost control, and that is what he would mean by creating 3 maps. I know the wastegate control problem because i ran into it and searched. I know no way around now. Preloading the actuator with washers, or using an adjustable length actuator makes for a more stable high boost, at the price of higher base boost and boost creep conditions (it prevents the wastegate from opening fully). A stronger spring in the actuator would solve the stability issue but also raise base boost, which you don't want. But if you are ok swapping springs, then you could use a weak actuator for 180ish hp, then swap the spring to go higher. I think an electric wastegate actuator would solve the problem completely, but you'd need an ecu that can handle it (and the money to buy and install it) I don't know about the SR intake restriction. My tuner says it does not, and proves it https://vimeo.com/65543081 It did higher power (450+ ) when the 2" wide 10"long restrictor was removed from the jasma exhaust. The build was featured by the "turbo by garett" facebook page. Stock mani. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...9577166&type=3 The problem you will face with the torque going with a 400+ build is the transmission. Stock one does not like it. Rebuilt stock ones does not either. You are going to need something like Z32 or Z33 gearbox and adapter, or uprated internals like os giken does. All options are expensive unfortunately. |
02-18-2015, 07:49 AM | #5 |
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If you want high horsepower and reliability, sell off the DET head and buy a VE head. The VE head will out flow even an extremely well ported DET head in factory trim.
The factory SR exhaust manifold is a pretty good design up to 4-500hp. Over that you'd benefit more from a tubular one. Twinscroll seems to be the hot ticket, especially if you plan on going EFR. I believe they have a built in quick spool valve that should be released in the future to aid in spool on the TS turbos. There are a lot of options and finding what does and doesn't work is a task. Expect some lag for higher horsepower as we do have small engines.
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02-18-2015, 10:08 AM | #6 | ||
Zilvia Junkie
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Quote:
I can see why you get that good results when using E85. Quote:
It is not a DET head either, it's a high port DE head Thank you for the tips regarding manifold and turbo.. Really interesting
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02-18-2015, 10:36 AM | #7 |
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"Flowtested" by what standards? A typical factory DET head flows 200cfm intake 170cfm exhaust. A factory VE head flows 275cfm intake, 200cfm exhaust. Claiming it'll flow 1000hp isn't a unit of measure. I highly doubt it is close to or in the 300cfm range. Regardless, there are other benefits to using the VE head over the DE/DET head such as shaft mounted rocker arms, better cooling passages and being able to have a tame low lobe cam for cruising around and then the high lobe cam for romping and make the power you want.
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02-18-2015, 11:01 AM | #8 |
Zilvia Junkie
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If we're talking dynojet numbers here, 400whp with stock intake and exhaust manifolds is pretty easy honestly.
I'd highly recommend an EFR 6758 for your build, as you won't need an external gate, and it's therefore more low-key. You can also get away with milder cam timing (probably the biggest factor in your emissions testing) with a higher flowing compressor (compensate with boost). Also, ditch the rocker arm stoppers and do the dual guide mod to the rockers. |
02-18-2015, 11:11 AM | #9 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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Quote:
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02-18-2015, 11:14 AM | #10 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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Quote:
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02-18-2015, 04:59 PM | #11 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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02-19-2015, 01:37 PM | #12 |
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This is cookie cutter top build, OEM engine, no lope, 350rwhp, 2871 or similar, oem manifolds.
Once you pass 350rwhp, you no longer want an sr20det. For the cost of machine work and internals, you run an LS or 2J. Everybody knows that though. A stock untouched, emissions passing 2j with a single is a 500rwhp daily, and the LS on boost is your next step up from there, and it keeps going |
02-19-2015, 05:04 PM | #14 |
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You guys need to keep it attainable for him. He is not in Merica' and parts are mostly likely not as easy for any of these engines to get.
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02-19-2015, 07:36 PM | #15 | |
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Quote:
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02-20-2015, 12:05 AM | #16 | |||
Zilvia Junkie
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Quote:
Quote:
I actually asked DMV about swapping to a 2JZ, but they wanted papers from Nissan Europe that the S13 chassis could withstand the extra power and weight. Nissan Europe has stopped giving out that kind of papers . Like I said to Kingtal0n. Quote:
You got it Sir!
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02-20-2015, 08:44 AM | #17 |
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I'm sure the engines are easy to come by, but what about parts? Im sure it's not like here, where your local auto parts store stocks items for those engines.
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02-20-2015, 12:53 PM | #18 |
Zilvia Junkie
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That's actually even easier. All brand dealers have parts, the dumb thing is that the parts are expensive as fuck.
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02-21-2015, 08:30 AM | #19 |
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I imagined they'd be expensive, just didn't thinkntheyd be readily available. Cool. Good luck with your endeavor.
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