Subaru BRZ = 240sx Successor

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by 1 88 U

S13, s14, s15, BRZ, FRS= pretty, light weight, 4 seater, rwd coupes. How the hell is a fugly Z in this conversation?

FRZ looks like a mini 350, so not sure where the "fugly" is coming from.

As for the relevance, you need to keep up with the class.

[1 88 U]

Wtf does that mean? The 350z is a very respectable sports car but it is in no way the new s chassis. The s chassis aside from being cheap years later, weighs under 2,700lbs, has two back seats, rwd. In othe words every thing the new frz is/gonna be. The Zed is the new zed.

[simmode1]

Originally Posted by 1 88 U

Wtf does that mean?

They mean that from a functional standpoint, early 350Z's and G35 coupes are pretty much interchangeable with the Silvias from a performance and price-after-mods standpont.

However, I think it's worth it to point out that the 350Z and G35 DO NOT compare to the Z32 TT in those same comparisons, so they are not as much spiritual successors to that car.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by simmode1

However, I think it's worth it to point out that the 350Z and G35 DO NOT compare to the Z32 TT in those same comparisons, so they are not as much spiritual successors to that car.

Correct. The 350Z is a retro-inspired car. It combines styling cues from the 240Z and 300ZX while returning to the Z-cars original principles.

A stylish, inexpensive sports car with a balance of agility and power.

With the introduction of "ZX", Z cars had become ever increasingly more expensive and more complicated.

In 1998, a 300ZX TT was $45,000 ($59,890 today). In Japan a TT was 4,190,000 yen base (4.9m maxed out). A non-turbo was ~$30k US and 3.1 mil in Japan.


In 2002 a S15 Silvia turbo was 2,390,000 yen, conversion was ~105:1 then, so $22,271 (in Japan). ($35,989 with inflation at today's exchange rate)

2002 Fairlady Z33 base was 3,000,000 yen. ($28,571, very close to US MSRP in 2003).

The Z33 offered the stock performance of the TT at a price below the cost of an N/A car. It also was only slightly more expensive the a base Turbo Silvia. With the crash of the performance car market in Japan, there was no room for both.

[simmode1]

Originally Posted by Corbic

With the crash of the performance car market in Japan, there was no room for both.

Hit the nail on the head. I think this remain true today. It would be unwise for Nissan to release a new spiritual successor to what we know as the Silvia while the Z is still doing so well in the market. And as long as the Z continues to do well, I see no need for the Silvia to return.

But where does Nissan take the Z from here? The 370Z is frikken brilliant, IMO. It's looks are debatable. But from an engineering/performance standpoint, I don't know where Nissan can go with the Z except put in a V8 or add turbos. But both those options would either contradict the spirit of the Z or step on the GTR's toes. I think, after a long and illustrious run, the Z should be put out to pasture with this current generation to make room for a new Silvia.

[g00se]

Originally Posted by codyace

Pushrods, Apple Pie, and Brunettes.

What else do ya need in life.

Ok, maybe Monster Trucks.

and beer... maybe oxy

[Piggy]

Originally Posted by simmode1

but where does nissan take the z from here? The 370z is frikken brilliant, imo. It's looks are debatable. But from an engineering/performance standpoint, i don't know where nissan can go with the z except put in a v8 or add turbos. But both those options would either contradict the spirit of the z or step on the gtr's toes. I think, after a long and illustrious run, the z should be put out to pasture with this current generation to make room for a new silvia.

qft.........

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by simmode1

But where does Nissan take the Z from here? The 370Z is frikken brilliant, IMO. It's looks are debatable. But from an engineering/performance standpoint, I don't know where Nissan can go with the Z except put in a V8 or add turbos. But both those options would either contradict the spirit of the Z or step on the GTR's toes. I think, after a long and illustrious run, the Z should be put out to pasture with this current generation to make room for a new Silvia.

This is an interesting question.

Currently I think the 370Z is struggling. Its styling is not as, well kept, as the 350Z and horse power freaks are being drawn to the 1M, 135is, Camaro SS and Mustang GT.

What the 370Z does do well is offer Porsche Cayman styling and performance for $20,000 less. Sure, you give up quite a bit on "drivers feel" and material quality, but the numbers are there.

motivemagazine.com - Motive Versus: Nissan 370Z vs. Porsche Cayman S

I think Nissan will struggle if they stay in the 33-43k market. It is crowded with fierce performance and luxury competition.

Offering Turbos or a V8 will let them slide into the 50k range, if they can compete performance wise with the Corvette, S4, M3, Boss Mustang and 911 they will be gold.

This still offers a lot of room under the $90,000 GTR. This plan would then also pave the way for a "Silvia" in the $20s.

Another option is to bring down the cost. Get the Z back under 30k or offer two trims levels. Get the weight to around 3,000lbs and put a small ~250hp V6 and then offer a FI or larger 350-400hp motor. One car is $28,000, the other $35,000. Best of both worlds.

I don't think the 240sx/Silvia name has enough cache in either the US or Japan to replace the Z as Nissans front runner. The Z is stronger than both the GT-R and Sivlia/SX.

[ronmcdon]

there's no reason why the Z can't two (if not more) trim levels. Ford, Hyundai, and Chevy have done this. I just think it's going to be tough to stay competitive without any major changes. Im sure a lot of buyers would consider the Z if it cost less and got more in terms of fuel economy. a turbo 4 trim to compete with the v6 mustang and turbo GC should be promising.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

there's no reason why the Z can't two (if not more) trim levels. Ford, Hyundai, and Chevy have done this. I just think it's going to be tough to stay competitive without any major changes. Im sure a lot of buyers would consider the Z if it cost less and got more in terms of fuel economy. a turbo 4 trim to compete with the v6 mustang and turbo GC should be promising.

It is also not unprecedented either. The original S30 did offer a 2.0 4-banger in Japan.

[sw20>>s14]

Originally Posted by simmode1

But where does Nissan take the Z from here? The 370Z is frikken brilliant, IMO. It's looks are debatable. But from an engineering/performance standpoint, I don't know where Nissan can go with the Z.....

solving the current transmission, oil cooling, and gas starvation issues could be a start

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by sw20>>s14

solving the current transmission, oil cooling, and gas starvation issues could be a start

Ah, more internet boogie-men. Watch out, your 4G is going to crank walk too!

[rb25crazy]

There will be no s16 or silvia anytime soon. Nissan or rather I dare say Carlos Ghosn is investing heavily into the Nissan Leaf and it's electric infrastructure. He's basically investing the majority of the funds he has to be the first clean car of the world that is affordable to the masses and practical as a sedan. He's banking his role as CEO on the line with the success of this vehicle, if it's not you can say good bye to him and a Nissan company that went thru all there funds. Also, if we do see a s16 it would probably be a light weight electric vehicle.

With that being said, he doesn't really have the resources to invest in a niche market with broke buyers like us anyway.

[fliprayzin240sx]

My beef with Nissan is, why the fuck would you make an Altima Coupe?!?! Why couldnt you push a Silvia-esque car for that segment? He'll, could have just made it rwd and it would have shut up alot of us calling for another S-chassis. Since I've been back stateside, I've seen alot of these cars running around.

But at the same time, honestly, I dont see Nissan making another S-chassis. I dont see the demand for it...how many broke HS/College kids would buy a new boy racer type car at $25-30k?

[ZenkiKid]

The FRS/BRZ is going to be like how the s2k first got here.


Too expensive when they first came out and nobody bought them because of that.

Became popular after 4-5 years once their prices went down.

[simmode1]

GT86 will be alot cheaper than the S2000 was when new, though.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by simmode1

GT86 will be alot cheaper than the S2000 was when new, though.

FRZ pricing already announced, $25,000. That's $8,000 less not accounting for inflation.

[ZenkiKid]

For the price I think I would rather get a Genesis 2.0 or a used 350z.

I always thought that the "FRZ" was too bare bones of a car to be worth that much.

[simmode1]

^^^For real. The 86 is probably gonna put, like what? 170hp to the wheels? With no easy turbo upgrade options? Fuck that.

At the same price as the 86, the fatty Genesis has a whole lot going for it, especially the new 2013's. At least Z/G's are getting close to dirt cheap now. Throw some damn nitrous at that VQ and call it a day.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by ZenkiKid

For the price I think I would rather get a Genesis 2.0 or a used 350z.

I always thought that the "FRZ" was too bare bones of a car to be worth that much.

Gen coupe is fucking disgusting looking.

It also weights 3,500lbs.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by simmode1

GT86 will be alot cheaper than the S2000 was when new, though.

FRZ is $25,000, S2K was about $32,000 12 years ago and I believe around $35,000 when it left. The FRZ will be 200lbs lighter.


Also, if you want, a EG20 will swap in place of the F-whatever motor. There is your "$2,000 turbo kit".

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by fliprayzin240sx

My beef with Nissan is, why the fuck would you make an Altima Coupe?!?! Why couldnt you push a Silvia-esque car for that segment? He'll, could have just made it rwd and it would have shut up alot of us calling for another S-chassis. Since I've been back stateside, I've seen alot of these cars running around.

Because girls buy them. The Altima coupe fills the Accord Coupe, Eclipse, Solara, Monte Carlo, G6, Mustang V6, Camaro V6 and Scion TC roll.

Its stylish, peppy and in the low $20,000s. These people don't want a rip-roaring performance car, and costs are kept low by sharing 90% of the parts with sibling sedans.

[rb25crazy]

you guys can wish all you want, but your votes (money spent) does all the real talking. Go buy sports cars and show that this segment is alive, and you best believe these companies will make what you want.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Because girls buy them. The Altima coupe fills the Accord Coupe, Eclipse, Solara, Monte Carlo, G6, Mustang V6, Camaro V6 and Scion TC roll.

Its stylish, peppy and in the low $20,000s. These people don't want a rip-roaring performance car, and costs are kept low by sharing 90% of the parts with sibling sedans.

Who the fuck do you think S14s were marketed towards?!?! Yep, USDM S-chassis were soooooo fucking sporty (sarcasm). You do realize that it was marketed towards older secretary/nurse/courgar types right? I had a Mary Kay's Sticker outline that would pop on my rear window on cold mornings.

PS: Altima coupes are not low $20s, try $25k for the 2.5 S to as much as $39k for the 3.5 SR models with all the trimmings.

Also, Subaru styling of the FT86 > Toyota's cookie cutter styling.

[raz0rbladez909]

Originally Posted by Corbic

FRZ is $25,000, S2K was about $32,000 12 years ago and I believe around $35,000 when it left. The FRZ will be 200lbs lighter.


Also, if you want, a EG20 will swap in place of the F-whatever motor. There is your "$2,000 turbo kit".

Truth.

I really don't see a whole lot of reasons to complain about the FRZ pricing honestly, it's everything everyone had been asking for. It's not a straight line performer by any means just like the s2k isn't, where it will shine is at the race track and I'm sure it will impress many for its relatively low starting price. There is also a LOT of hype behind the car so I can only imagine what the aftermarket will do for it, but it will take time, I know ten years ago people wouldn't dare think you could make 500+ hp on a stock block f20/22 but it's being done nowadays, with the technology being there already I honestly doubt it will be long before someone slaps some sort of forced induction on the FRZ and makes the thing fly like a bat out of hell, but nobody could seriously be expecting it to come out as a high horsepower beast. Look how successful the Miata/mx5 is, and it definitely isn't for it's power, there is obviously buyers already lining up to buy the damn thing without even sitting in it.

[word sux]

Originally Posted by raz0rbladez909

Truth.

I really don't see a whole lot of reasons to complain about the FRZ pricing honestly, it's everything everyone had been asking for. It's not a straight line performer by any means just like the s2k isn't, where it will shine is at the race track and I'm sure it will impress many for its relatively low starting price. There is also a LOT of hype behind the car so I can only imagine what the aftermarket will do for it, but it will take time, I know ten years ago people wouldn't dare think you could make 500+ hp on a stock block f20/22 but it's being done nowadays, with the technology being there already I honestly doubt it will be long before someone slaps some sort of forced induction on the FRZ and makes the thing fly like a bat out of hell, but nobody could seriously be expecting it to come out as a high horsepower beast. Look how successful the Miata/mx5 is, and it definitely isn't for it's power, there is obviously buyers already lining up to buy the damn thing without even sitting in it.

Hks, greddy, and cosworth already have parts developed for it. Look at ken gushi's 600hp greddy/ cosworth built car, those two companies have obviously already developed or are in the process of developing a full range of parts including turbo kits and internals. Now obviously once the car is actually out we will start to see many other companies that didn't get pre production cars to work with come out with their own line of parts. And sure enough in a few year we will start seeing a whole line of knockoff parts.

[exitspeed]

Wish i had more time to jump in this conversation. Some great stuff being debated here.

[Fred Allen Burge]

Maybe Nissan will bring their new Datsun brand here with an entry level RWD coupe model to compete with the BRZ.

[1 88 U]

Originally Posted by Corbic

FRZ is $25,000, S2K was about $32,000 12 years ago and I believe around $35,000 when it left. The FRZ will be 200lbs lighter.


Also, if you want, a EG20 will swap in place of the F-whatever motor. There is your "$2,000 turbo kit".

You beat me to the punch about the S2K price but the EG series won't mount up to the FRZ bell house. DrooP and Greddy had to cut the tunnel to fit a custom hollinger. Best bet is to see what HKS can do with the stock motor. My guess is expensive internal work to bring down the CR for boost. My fear is there is no way to make numbers over 210rwhp without big dough.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by 1 88 U

. My fear is there is no way to make numbers over 210rwhp without big dough.

Seriously, fuck Greddy, HKS, Toemi and Apexi. What the fuck have any of them really done in the last 15 years?

I have little doubt JE and Weisco will have pistons by X-mass for $400 a set.