Turbo & Manifold Hardware Discussion

[KoukiMonsta]

Originally Posted by Scott@FontanaNissan

The reason you want the area to be clean is so that when you torque the hardware the torque is distributed evenly through the threads. dirty threads = uneven torque = loose hardware

This point I can follow, the rest is basically of zero relevance to this thread.

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by Scott@FontanaNissan

I understand this completely, and I agree. this is the same reason why Nissan forces us to replace the hardware on all exhaust components whenever we warranty or do any repairs involving exhaust components. the amount of heat, vibration , weight and stress really puts a toll on the hardware. this is also why when say for example you remove your 10+ year old exhaust manifold half the time if you don't replace the studs and you attempt to re-torque it to factory specs you'll snap the studs or ruin them the next time you attempt to take them off.

Only certain parts are considered replacement parts, not everything. If that was the case, we'd be changing everything... all the time. Exhaust manifold studs, everything. Its not the case. You change out fasteners that are heavily abused, that makes sense.

Yesterday I removed studs off of my S15 turbo manifold that I bought used from (wherever). The studs removed like cake, no problems. And my hunch is that the larger fasteners will eliminate, or at the very least reduce these occurrences from happening.

Attached is a photo of my gasket that was removed from my 180SX front clip. The clip was a super clean, all stock, non abused, low mileage 96-98 180SX front clip. Bottom line is that this is a problem, new hardware or not. And out of all the people, you guys know I am quick to replace hardware often - so I dont even understand the point here. If you're suggesting that new OEM hardware is the solution, I can tell you that its not. Because I have tried it.

[Def]

New oem hardware lasts exactly 2-2.5 hrs of track time. Been there, done that MULTIPLE times. The fucking fasteners deformed, nothing turned. And it wasn't the studs, it seemed to be the sealing face of the nuts.

I welded a T25 to a stock manifold yesterday. Way more crack prone than the no-resist GT2871r housing. Tig with 308l or 316l rod would crack immediately. Mig with er70s6 was fine, and it'd only give a slight crack on the surface on stops. I gave it a few big tacks to see if that'll hold it to experiment for you assholes.

Also tack welded some stainless nuts I had sitting around. No factory stuff left, I know they won't survive if the housing isn't welded to the manifold.

Going to the track this weekend. We'll see how she does.

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by Def

I gave it a few big tacks to see if that'll hold it to experiment for you assholes.

Come on Jacob, you mean to tell me that you havent been re-using old ass rusted fasteners over and over? We all know you're cheap when it comes to this stuff. You need to buy new fasteners, new gaskets, new manifolds, new turbos, everything. Hell, might as well buy a NEW SR20DET crate motor pre-assembled just to be safe. :-)

Thanks for updating us with the weld attempts, that was my exact worry when it came to making the turbo & manifold ONE. Its kinda funny though how a lot of OEMs have switched from the 2-piece setup to 1-piece turbo/manifold. If anyone remembers KidZelda on here, he works as a VW/Audi tech and said that the 1.8T was 2-piece and the 2.0T switched to 1-piece. A quick google showed that the 1.8T guys are also complaining about loose turbo hardware. Ironically enough though, they are not using fancy high-temp thread locker like Resbond. They are using plain old Red loctite and basically letting the thread locker sit for 2-3 days to cure. People have reported that once cured, it does not back out.

One thing I am thinking about, is using those thick exhaust washer/spacer things - I dont know the technical name. I think if there is sufficient clearance, those would help keep the heat away from the nuts.

Gotta keep heat away from the nuts. Well, at least my nuts.

[bardabe]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

Only certain parts are considered replacement parts, not everything. If that was the case, we'd be changing everything... all the time. Exhaust manifold studs, everything. Its not the case. You change out fasteners that are heavily abused, that makes sense.

Yesterday I removed studs off of my S15 turbo manifold that I bought used from (wherever). The studs removed like cake, no problems. And my hunch is that the larger fasteners will eliminate, or at the very least reduce these occurrences from happening.

Attached is a photo of my gasket that was removed from my 180SX front clip. The clip was a super clean, all stock, non abused, low mileage 96-98 180SX front clip. Bottom line is that this is a problem, new hardware or not. And out of all the people, you guys know I am quick to replace hardware often - so I dont even understand the point here. If you're suggesting that new OEM hardware is the solution, I can tell you that its not. Because I have tried it.

I'm going to go ahead and keep replying to this one on more of a personal level. as an individual and not a Fontana Nissan Employee.

Maybe we are doing something different but I can't exactly point out what or where it is since I don't know how you work on your car. I think your problem is I know for a fact that new hardware has always worked for my cases. Every time I have installed or upgraded turbos on a customer car without failure. the only time the failures have happened is when customers refused the new hardware or bought lower grade (hardware store bought) hardware. I have numerous friends with shops that use OE Hardware on shop cars and track cars without failure. so I'm not exactly sure where or why your problems keep happening. I have always used OEM Hardware on bottom mount turbo setups and I don't intend to change that. (if something isn't broken don't fuck with it) The Bigger turbo setups I've always used either locking tabs, or where the locking tabs don't fit for space constraints or hardware width I've used the flange nuts with the ridges on the flange, together with Copper spray that has yet to fail me.

perhaps instead of using giant hardware try using the OE Honda Locking nuts that they use on their exhaust manifold. it's the same thread pich as the OE SR20 Turbo and O2 housing studs. They use the "offset thread" tip. which basically is like having a jam nut at the end of the nut while you thread it on. I have used those on a couple of cars per the customer request and they also worked out pretty well, unfortunately those nuts are strictly a one time use. Maybe something you'd be interested in looking into. or using castle nuts with safety wire.

-Juan

[e1_griego]

And what people are telling you is that it doesn't matter on track where the sustained temps are higher.

2 years of autox my stock hardware with copper locknuts survived no problem. 2nd track day, so maybe 90 minutes of track time, and everything went to shit.

I ran these style of locknuts with locking tabs as well, doesn't matter: http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-.../Nut/ES251523/

[bardabe]

I am speaking cars that are driven on the track on a regular basis, time attack to be specific.

[TheRealSy90]

Originally Posted by Def

I welded a T25 to a stock manifold yesterday. Way more crack prone than the no-resist GT2871r housing. Tig with 308l or 316l rod would crack immediately. Mig with er70s6 was fine, and it'd only give a slight crack on the surface on stops. I gave it a few big tacks to see if that'll hold it to experiment for you assholes.

Had zero problems mig welding mine together, we didn't even take the gasket out just welded over the top of it... Used whatever wire was in the welder nothing special. Been going strong for almost two years lol.

[Dboyizmlg]

Wooow now people should consider welding their manifold to turbo?!!!

What in the what..... I don't like the idea of having my new $1kplus turbo welded to my E/M.
I'm sure a lot of people will agree with me on that. Not to bash on the idea though, as I'm sure SOME people might want to try that out.

I have used OEM gaskets on my exhaust/turbo as well as studs, tabs, and nuts. Actually those locking nuts Juan mentioned are pretty awesome. All this hardware should be ok on the DD side, and weekend warrior. As long as we clean prep all areas before instal, and RETOURQE after heat cycle. Shit will not come loose. Well eventually it will...lol

Same goes for idea of thicker, stronger hardware. Sure it will last a bit longer, and take more of a beating. But.... Remember this stuff will NOT last forever.

[ixfxi]

You guys want to weld, by all means have at it. KoukiMonster pointed something out earlier which I also thought of:

Originally Posted by KoukiMonsta

This brings up something else I have thought about viewing photos of them welded. If you weld around the 'rectangular' perimeter, does this not leave the bolt holes as a place for leakage?

That and....

Originally Posted by Dboyizmlg

What in the what..... I don't like the idea of having my new $1kplus turbo welded to my E/M.

^ EXACTLY. Unless I am 100000000% SURE that my weld job is going to hold up (and I TIG, I dont MIG) - I've learned not to trust it. I only weld things that I am damn sure are going to hold.

Anyway, my new fasteners arrived this morning from Toyota. Enjoy your M8 hardware, I'll stick with M10.

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by bardabe

I am speaking cars that are driven on the track on a regular basis, time attack to be specific.

Different scenrio. Time Attack puts a fairly large heat load on the system for a fairly small amount of time (2-3 hot laps, cool down for a few laps, then rinse and repeat).

Not quiet the same as hammering for 20+ mins straight with no cool down.

[Def]

Originally Posted by Dboyizmlg

Wooow now people should consider welding their manifold to turbo?!!!

What in the what..... I don't like the idea of having my new $1kplus turbo welded to my E/M.
I'm sure a lot of people will agree with me on that. Not to bash on the idea though, as I'm sure SOME people might want to try that out.

I have used OEM gaskets on my exhaust/turbo as well as studs, tabs, and nuts. Actually those locking nuts Juan mentioned are pretty awesome. All this hardware should be ok on the DD side, and weekend warrior. As long as we clean prep all areas before instal, and RETOURQE after heat cycle. Shit will not come loose. Well eventually it will...lol

Same goes for idea of thicker, stronger hardware. Sure it will last a bit longer, and take more of a beating. But.... Remember this stuff will NOT last forever.

I'll take welding a $250 turbine housing to a manifold any day of the week over losing $350 of track time + gas + time getting to and from the track + hotel etc.

When you do big boy stuff like go to the track, you get over shit like welding a turbo to an exhaust manifold. It's no big deal, it works, and the turbo still unbolts from the turbine housing. If you are so weirded out by it, buy a new turbine housing for $250 and you can floss that to the other hard parkers.


You don't have to worry about this on the street, drifting, or autox. The OEM stuff holds up fine. On track, it won't.



BTW, Honda chopped up their 9180 EFR turbine housings when they were running a single turbo, and welded tubes to it that then v-banded into each housing. I wonder why they did that? Maybe that they didn't want to bottom mount a big heavy turbo in their gearbox with a bolted flange that might let go?





This issue still has me a little wary of going to a T4 twin scroll top mount turbo. I'm still debating that vs. a v-band housing.

[bardabe]

Ok, so this is completely off topic, but instead of worrying about blowing gaskets all the time, hardware backing out, drilling for bigger bolts, struggling to bolt on bigger hardware welding turbine housing to manifolds etc. have any of you guys considered a Tial V-Band Housing, V-Band Manifold, and V-Band downpipe? I mean sure the housing is a few hundred bucks. and welding a Vband flange to your manifold is going to cost another 100$ or so but it's a for sure 100% fix.

I would imagine after breaking a few sets of hardware, spending money on gaskets, and all the time wasted attempting different methods you can just do the V-Band route and never have to worry about it again; Time is money after all.

[ixfxi]

well, my struggle to install the larger m10 fasteners was not much of a struggle. redrilling m8 and retapping m10 really did not take much time and effort. i managed to do it with a bullshit 1950s craftsman drill press and a cross vise.

with that said, the discussion has been about OE cast manifolds....... not custom. i personally, have no interest in tubular manifolds or top mount, so none of that is something i would ever purchase. i think there are a lot of people who feel the same way.


i understand def's perspective, he just wants something that works. if welding is the solution, so be it. however, he mentioned turbos costing 250. not my turbo. my turbo cost quite a bit more. and welding a new turbo is not something i am willing to do.

anyway, im glad this thread has had such good interest. i wish here would be more discussion on the other topics i mentioned such as the EGT thermocouple location or boost creep, but it doesnt appear that to be of interest here. on step at a time. gotta remind myself that this isnt NRR where people are smart. this is zilvia.


oh well, at least its not nico. :-)

[e1_griego]

Turbos aren't $250, but turbine housings are.

What turbo are you using? And did the m10 nuts clear no problem? And did you drill the gasket too?

[Bleakley]

Thought about making the jump to 10mm studs on the manifold to turbo.. Almost did it too. Staying tuned for results (and pictures)...
I see no need to go from 8 to 10 on the turbine outlet.
Now, I fail to see how stage 8 BOLTS would not do the trick here?? That sounds like bullshit..

Side note: I can see an argument for stage 8 nuts coupled with oem studs failing via the stud could still potentially turn.

[KoukiMonsta]

The issue is not necessarily that the hardware turns('comes loose'). It DEFORMS after prolonged periods under extreme conditions. Reference this thread for details.

Larger hardware. Greater resistance to deformation.

Mike another solution. Drive your car like a pussy and you won't have any issues. /thread.

[TheRealSy90]

Like he said, if you welded it you can always purchase another turbine housing if it ever came time to remove the turbo and sell it as they are fairly cheap.

So why hasn't anybody tried using the locking bolts that are commonly used in v8 header applications and the like? It's quite obvious that the bolt simply cannot physically loosen after they are installed:



As a side note regarding V-Band's, i've noticed on multiple friend's cars that utilize a v-band clamp for the turbo-manifold and turbo-o2 housing that there is always evidence of the exhaust leaking past the v-clamp itself where there is a gap between the two clamping surfaces. Is this due to using inferior v-bands? Or is it simply something inherent with using v-bands themselves. And it doesn't seem to be audible at an idle so it's most likely after boost pressure is reached.

[e1_griego]

All vband clamps soot like that I think. Sort of just how it goes.

I'm using the Stage 8 nuts right now, not sure if there's enough room to sneak a bolt in one of the holes in the turbine. 3 of them of them are probably fine, I think the 4th would be tough.

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by e1_griego

Turbos aren't $250, but turbine housings are.

What turbo are you using? And did the m10 nuts clear no problem? And did you drill the gasket too?

Ah, I missed that detail. Once things calm down at work, I will be doing some weld experiments to see how these items hold up with practice welds.

M10 hardware cleared just fine. Its all a bit tighter to fit, but nothing crazy. Hex portion of these studs needs to be trimmed off, though. And no, I will not be running a gasket. I have gotten both surfaces flat. Only items I plan on using are the locking clips.

[Def]

Perfectly sealing v-bands won't leak, but most get warped when welding. That said, the leakage is usually pretty low to where it doesn't matter.

Same thing with running no gasket and a welded flange. Yea, you've got nuts on the studs, and there might be a little bit of exhaust gas leakage there, but it's so minute that it's not even worth worrying about it. If you're leaking 0.01 lb/min of exhaust while under boost, you could see evidence of that with a little soot etc. but you've got a solid 35-45 lb/min of exhaust for a 300-400 rwhp car.

[RalliartRsX]

Never had a problem with either my EFR V-band or my Tial V-band leaking. If mouted corretcly and surfaces are not warped, there should be zero leakage

As far as using stage 8 bolts, tight fit even for the M8 hardware when using a bottom mount T2 frame turbo with stock manifold. I could only fit 3 comfortably..........

[TheRealSy90]

Originally Posted by Def

Same thing with running no gasket and a welded flange. Yea, you've got nuts on the studs, and there might be a little bit of exhaust gas leakage there, but it's so minute that it's not even worth worrying about it.

Or just remove the studs&nuts when welding it and weld inside the holes too! boom one piece manifold/turbo.

[Bleakley]

Read the whole thread, every word..
I'm running the stage 8 nuts, no issues. Though, no track duty either...
Bought brand new yoke washers and studs too. (Did not remove old studs though - fuggit..)
Really in here for those pics of the 10mil hardware...

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

Like he said, if you welded it you can always purchase another turbine housing if it ever came time to remove the turbo and sell it as they are fairly cheap.

So why hasn't anybody tried using the locking bolts that are commonly used in v8 header applications and the like? It's quite obvious that the bolt simply cannot physically loosen after they are installed:


As a side note regarding V-Band's, i've noticed on multiple friend's cars that utilize a v-band clamp for the turbo-manifold and turbo-o2 housing that there is always evidence of the exhaust leaking past the v-clamp itself where there is a gap between the two clamping surfaces. Is this due to using inferior v-bands? Or is it simply something inherent with using v-bands themselves. And it doesn't seem to be audible at an idle so it's most likely after boost pressure is reached.

It's not the issue of the bolts backing out as the stock clips do the same thing. It's the OAL of the bolts increasing to to heat.
I would like to see the EGT's of people having issues.


Inferior v-bands maybe, Usually it's warping like others have said. Cheap vbands maybe more prone to warpage than ones out of better quality metal.
Little copper grease helps with any weeping. Graphite Grease if you are real old-school.

[Def]

Everything warps while welding - v-bands are no exception. In aerospace I've seen them get refaced after welding.

My EGTs are as low as they're going to get. I was 1-2 degrees off where I'd get phantom knock on 93 octane. It's not like I was running 4 degrees of timing at 14 psi or anything. I'm waiting to see what AEM decides to do on external EGT control before adding it to my car. But they're not insane. Like people have said, my stock hardware lasted 4 years of street driving and around 10 track days before it let go. It was ALL new (except the manifold studs). Replaced it with all new stuff, and would get 2 days out of it. I was just on the throttle that much more (after shaking some rust off and getting back in the groove).

[KOUKI_VERS13]

Originally Posted by jorge1190

I have always used lock washers with copper nuts. It is what a lot of big diesels use and I've never had a problem.

I have found that the best gaskets are OEM gaskets. I have never blown out an OEM nissan gasket. I can't say the same for mr. Gasket.

This is experience with stock manifold/turbo, tubular manifold with greddy T517Z, and now my top mount set up.

Same here. I have a Tomei manifold with a S15 Spec R turbo. I used OEM multi-layer steel gaskets on the head to manifold and manifold to turbo. Copper jam nuts as well.

[Def]

People, this is a problem that only manifests itself on A RACE TRACK! Not you doing dyno pulls, not being an ass on the street, not drifting.

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by Def

People, this is a problem that only manifests itself on A RACE TRACK! Not you doing dyno pulls, not being an ass on the street, not drifting.

But, I has race car...

Spendy...
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant...egory_Code=NGH

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by Def

People, this is a problem that only manifests itself on A RACE TRACK! Not you doing dyno pulls, not being an ass on the street, not drifting.

QFT!!

To the OP, The reason why this is not discussed is because:
a) This RARELY happens as 98% of 240 users call "a race" drifting around the parking lot.......
b) Never happens to about 99% of the people because 99% of the people DON'T truly track their cars for 20+ min wide open sessions
c) The ones who do either 1) Do not run a bottom mount or 2) Nut up and weld or use some other non-discussed method


IJS......