coilover thread to end it all

[RiverCitySlim]

Self-admitted noob here, and this is more info than I can absorb at one go, and I've read through about three times now! If I'm reading this all correctly, The Koni yellow's are a solid unit for track and some DD, combined with a Ground Control sleeve kit (which I assume allows for ride height adjustment) and an adjustable top mount which allows for camber adjustment. Does anyone using aftermarket control arms, radius rods, etc. have a suggestion for a quality manufacturer? While new to the 240, I've built a few old muscle cars and had great luck with companies like Hotchkiss and BMR. I feel a bit out of my depth trying to start all over, and any help would be appreciated.

[0100]

^Quality go with
http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=164651

or even
http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=144069

[GSXRJJordan]

Wow I can't believe I haven't seen this thread before.

EastcoastS14 posted about his Tanabe Sevens, but missed out on what I think makes them the best coilover buy - the customizability!

Most coilovers, at any price point, have a spring that's set by the customer base (meaning softer for "autocross" and stiffer for "drifting"), then a damper that, hopefully, will work well across a very narrow adjustment range. This is undesirable for someone like me, who wants to be able to drive the car aggressively around town/freeways/etc, while maintaining maximum traction, with as smooth/predictable a ride as possible - but also drift well/predictably when the car's track ready.

After working for a Formula-D driver during the 06 season, I learned that EVERY professional drift car has unbelievably stiff springs and valving. Like, so stiff, the most hardcore zilvia wannabe would never drive like that on the street. So ideally you'd buy a set of coilovers that perform well when set very stiff, but also perform well (meaning no bouncing/excessive rebound) when you turn the compression down. This is what the Tanabe Sevens do.

Aside from these (my Sustec Pro Sevens), the only other setup I'd consider would be the KWs/Toplines (same thing, basically, from everything I hear), because they're raved about for similar reasons (actual adjustability, with rebound tracking with compression across the adjustment range), or a true 4-way adjustable setup (compression, rebound, ride height, preload). After tuning so many motorcycle suspensions (which have high- and low-speed compression and rebound adjustments), I just can't see going with a setup that locks you into one type of driving style, with cars that are otherwise so versatile.

Lets keep this thread on track with any other comparisons/contrasts to actual high-end suspension solutions, and how you tested/why you chose how you did. I like the fact that this isn't overrun with cheap shit, for lack of a better term.

[hellaflush]

+1 for silkroad section spec rma8

their new 08 model just came out too with external resevoirs... shit looks pro

[GSXRJJordan]

Silkroads are known as very decent coils... I was actually interested in buying them, until I found out they weren't serviceable in the US. Tanabes are

[hellaflush]

hell im in australia and use them... noone has heard of them over here

i havent had one go bust on me yet and i dont plan on them to but if one does get damaged ill just order a new one from jp

[Wiisass]

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

Wow I can't believe I haven't seen this thread before.

EastcoastS14 posted about his Tanabe Sevens, but missed out on what I think makes them the best coilover buy - the customizability!

Most coilovers, at any price point, have a spring that's set by the customer base (meaning softer for "autocross" and stiffer for "drifting"), then a damper that, hopefully, will work well across a very narrow adjustment range. This is undesirable for someone like me, who wants to be able to drive the car aggressively around town/freeways/etc, while maintaining maximum traction, with as smooth/predictable a ride as possible - but also drift well/predictably when the car's track ready.

After working for a Formula-D driver during the 06 season, I learned that EVERY professional drift car has unbelievably stiff springs and valving. Like, so stiff, the most hardcore zilvia wannabe would never drive like that on the street. So ideally you'd buy a set of coilovers that perform well when set very stiff, but also perform well (meaning no bouncing/excessive rebound) when you turn the compression down. This is what the Tanabe Sevens do.

Aside from these (my Sustec Pro Sevens), the only other setup I'd consider would be the KWs/Toplines (same thing, basically, from everything I hear), because they're raved about for similar reasons (actual adjustability, with rebound tracking with compression across the adjustment range), or a true 4-way adjustable setup (compression, rebound, ride height, preload). After tuning so many motorcycle suspensions (which have high- and low-speed compression and rebound adjustments), I just can't see going with a setup that locks you into one type of driving style, with cars that are otherwise so versatile.

Lets keep this thread on track with any other comparisons/contrasts to actual high-end suspension solutions, and how you tested/why you chose how you did. I like the fact that this isn't overrun with cheap shit, for lack of a better term.

The Tanabe Sevens weren't that great. And I hated the adjuster. It seemed like it could've been a good idea in theory, but I think Tanabe just dropped the ball when it came to putting the whole package together. If I understood the idea right or even if I gave them more credit than they deserved, the alignment of the adjuster would need to be dead on to work properly. Without that accurate alignment, damping would be whatever it wanted to be depending on how close the holes were to lining up. So if you could get that alignment, you would have a decent adjuster, but then they give you that cheap plastic adjuster piece. With a ton of play in it and very hard to get things even and at least adjusted the same side to side. So that just lot a ton of points. And I don't get how you're saying their more customizable?

As for coilovers at any price point coming with springs? Are you capping your price point at the top level of cheap stuff? All the JDM stuff comes with spring rates, but look at Moton or Koni or Penske or any other companies like that, they don't tell you what spring rates you should run.

And for wanting a damper to do everything. It's a damper, there are compromises. You can, and I have, valved dampers to ride nicely on the street, but still handle well on the road course and at drift events. It's all in the valving. But even though the car rode awesome, especially considering the spring rates, it still wasn't as comfortable a ride as in some stock normal person car. What you're saying would be like asking your engine to act like an NA V8 for driving around town, but then turn into a high powered turbo car when you get to the track. It doesn't happen. There's compromises here just like everywhere else. Unless you decide to put some MR (not megan racing, magnetorheological) dampers on the car, you aren't going to be able to get that. It's just impossible with a decarbon type damper.

And I don't think all FD cars are running super stiff springs and valving. I'm pretty sure I know of a couple that aren't. But if most are, it just shows where the sport is in terms of suspension development. I'm sure some teams are doing some good work, but I'm also sure a lot of people have found that a car will slide easier when everything is basically rigid. It's the driver's that need to go faster and have a more predictable car that are going a little softer and trying to get the valving to match the car. There are a lot of gains to be made in good dampers for any motorsport, drifting included. People will try and say that stiffest is the best, but I bet they haven't driven on a proper setup in anything competitive before. Stiffer is easier to get started with, but you're going to fight it when you're trying to go faster. You need grip for drifting and you won't get that when you're running way too stiff valving for the rest of the setup.

A true 4-way adjustable setup is not rebound, compression, height and preload when you're talking about a damper. A 4-way adjustable damper is low-speed rebound, low-speed compression, high-speed rebound, high-speed compression. Height and preload don't even need to be considered. And the only reason most companies need height and preload adjustment to be seperate is because their using a very modular setup so they don't have to make as many parts. If you had a properly sized damper for the ride height you wanted, you would only need one method of height adjustment. And if you were really good, you wouldn't need any.

The thing is, given a car that doesn't change weight for different events, and spring rates and sway bars that don't change for different events, you shouldn't need much adjustment in the damper for different events. Some fine tuning may be needed, but that is all you should really need. And that would also just be low speed tuning, high speed would normally stay about the same or there wouldn't be much reason to change it. That's assuming that the curves are good to begin with though. Which wouldn't characterize most of the normal setups that people here have experienced. But for a performance car, there's not a huge range of damping adjustment that you would need unless you're moving ballast around a lot or changing spring rates all the time. And if you feel the need for any big spring rate changes or changes in the weight or weight distribution of the car, then you should consider different dampers or revalveable dampers.

Tim

[GSXRJJordan]

^^^ Tim, I appreciate the time and effort you put into every post you make, especially the suspension- and cage-related ones

When I first saw the Sevens' adjuster, I thought the same thing you did, but after putting it all together, I had ZERO play in the plastic knob... it definitely stayed put - not saying that the adjuster was a thing of art or the best engineering idea ever, but the adjuster was positively positioned by the alignment of the perch, and the perch was positively positioned by the notched/threaded damper body, so I was sure the valving would be matched on each damper.

The springs thing - I'm not saying that a damper company will dictate what springs to run, I'm saying that for most buyers, the motorsport/venue of choice does that for you ~ and if you buy into that mentality, you're searching for spring rate first/damping second. Most people do a little math, search the forums, and then buy a set of springs... it's the same with motorcycles, and believe me, most people that I competed in WERA/CCS/FUSA with were not sprung correctly either. The truth is, the only way to really know is to run different setups (springs/sway setups at least) and figure out which compromise you feel most comfortable with, but that's out of most drivers' effort/cost range.

About adjustability - I agree that for a car that doesn't change weight, you shouldn't need to change springs/ride height once you set it for your chosen duty... but so many of us change wheel setups/aero/etc and enjoy the height adjustability - after all, these are cars that are street driven at least some of the time. I also know that a true 4-way damper has separate high- and low-speed adjustments for comp and rebound, but when you're talking about a coilover that has separate compression and rebound adjustments, every company I've seen calls that a 4-way adjustable unit - just using the "parlance of our times".

And finally, the F-D suspension "secret"... even with super stiff settings EVERYONE runs, there is enough feedback to let the pros drifting on Megan 12/10 setups compete with the D1 guys drifting on Zeals. There's simply not enough difference in how the dampers perform at the stiff end of the valving to differentiate. So for everyone out there who wants to "buy what the pros use on their 240s", its useless, because you'll never run them that stiff. That was my only point ~

In my opinion, the true quality of a coilover system on s-chassis cars comes in how well they perform when NOT set to full stiff - and I'm naturally the first to point out that I have a fantastic benchmark for all my suspension trials - a mostly stock c5 z06. Lowered using extended bolts, but otherwise stock suspension - and damn hard to beat

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

And finally, the F-D suspension "secret"... even with super stiff settings EVERYONE runs, there is enough feedback to let the pros drifting on Megan 12/10 setups compete with the D1 guys drifting on Zeals.

Zeals really aren't the super-quality dampers everyone makes them out to be. Don't get me wrong, they're a step above the base stuff, but unless you get the multiply(<--a real word?) adjustable ones and spend some time with them, they really aren't the best.

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

There's simply not enough difference in how the dampers perform at the stiff end of the valving to differentiate. So for everyone out there who wants to "buy what the pros use on their 240s", its useless, because you'll never run them that stiff. That was my only point ~

I don't really believe that is entirely true. There can be quite a large difference in the high-speed damping (what you're referring to as the stiff end?), enough to make a car that is noticeably more composed when traveling at high speeds on a bumpier track.

[Aeroscraper326]

Company: Sessions Power

Model: Sessions Power Turtles

Review: FUCKING AWESOME coilovers, Extremely hard to get but worth every penny. More of a VIP type coilover But can withstand extreme driving.


Company: Top Secret

Model: Top secret custom tuned/valved S13 coilovers

Review: You get what you pay for, have yet to drive the car but it has to feel amazing.


Company: Moton

Model: Custom race coilovers

Review: The MOST amazing, teriffic, tit-Tastic coilover/race dampers i have ever driven on. They felt better then the penskes in a 911 sc race car i drove.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Aeroscraper326

Company: Top Secret

Model: Top secret custom tuned/valved S13 coilovers

Review: You get what you pay for, have yet to drive the car but it has to feel amazing.

I'm pretty darn sure Top Secret uses AST/Topline Aragosta dampers tuned to each application. Personally I'd rather (and plan to) order Topline's through SPL and pay the $200 to have them custom damped to whatever spring rates I want (damper dyno sheet included) total: $2900.

[revat619]

Stance GR+ Pro - yeah there's definitely better stuff out there, but it works great for what i need them for and they're serviceable here in the US.

Fwiw, I have used Tein, Apollo, JIC, KYB shocks/eibach springs, and have driven identically set up cars with Zeals, Powered by Max, and Silk Roads.

Hopefully that helps someone.

Great thread!

[Aeroscraper326]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

I'm pretty darn sure Top Secret uses AST/Topline Aragosta dampers tuned to each application. Personally I'd rather (and plan to) order Topline's through SPL and pay the $200 to have them custom damped to whatever spring rates I want (damper dyno sheet included) total: $2900.

Yes top secret uses Aragosta dampers. I have heard the Aragosta dampers that Top Secret/ Topline varied in different ways?? Not quite sure on this but if anyone had more info that would be great.

However i only ended up paying $2800 for my coilovers.(hook-ups)

[PoorMans180SX]

probably spring rate and therefore damping.

Like I said, you can get Toplines custom damped for any spring rate you want for an extra $200. You can also get a 3-way adjustable upgrade (with remote reservoirs) but it's a little pricier at $1100 an axle. So you're basically up to Moton price range, and Moton has better serviceability in the US.

[Wiisass]

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

^^^ Tim, I appreciate the time and effort you put into every post you make, especially the suspension- and cage-related ones

Thanks Jordan, posts like yours make it easier for me, there's more info and thought in them than the normal "XXX coilover is awesome because it's really stiff and I can slam my car" posts.

When I first saw the Sevens' adjuster, I thought the same thing you did, but after putting it all together, I had ZERO play in the plastic knob... it definitely stayed put - not saying that the adjuster was a thing of art or the best engineering idea ever, but the adjuster was positively positioned by the alignment of the perch, and the perch was positively positioned by the notched/threaded damper body, so I was sure the valving would be matched on each damper.

I know what you're saying, it just seemed cheap to me. It just seemed like Tanabe was trying to introduce some clever new adjustment method and then capped it off with a cheap looking and feeling plastic adjuster knob. And maybe it was just the ones I had, but they definitely had some play in the knob, it probably wasn't as much as I made it sound in my original post, but I was also assuming that the adjuster inside the damper was a little more sophisticated than it probably is. Since I never had one apart and I never saw what was inside, I really can't be sure.

The springs thing - I'm not saying that a damper company will dictate what springs to run, I'm saying that for most buyers, the motorsport/venue of choice does that for you ~ and if you buy into that mentality, you're searching for spring rate first/damping second. Most people do a little math, search the forums, and then buy a set of springs... it's the same with motorcycles, and believe me, most people that I competed in WERA/CCS/FUSA with were not sprung correctly either. The truth is, the only way to really know is to run different setups (springs/sway setups at least) and figure out which compromise you feel most comfortable with, but that's out of most drivers' effort/cost range.

You're right, people have been lead to thinking that certain spring setups are the best for these cars. And that's without any consideration of weight or sway bar setup or ride height or anything that should be thought about to maintain a good oversteer/understeer balance of the car. But with how much the damping sucks on most of these setups out there right now, people could experiment with spring rates and get the balance back, but I really don't think that most people know.

And besides physical testing of different setups, a lot of math will also get you pretty close to the right base setup. I have some pretty serious spreadsheets that I have been using for the past couple years to get base setups for different cars. But they're a lot more in depth and detailed than most people would ever go. But even just looking at ride frequencies and picking springs based off that would be simple and people could do it.

About adjustability - I agree that for a car that doesn't change weight, you shouldn't need to change springs/ride height once you set it for your chosen duty... but so many of us change wheel setups/aero/etc and enjoy the height adjustability - after all, these are cars that are street driven at least some of the time. I also know that a true 4-way damper has separate high- and low-speed adjustments for comp and rebound, but when you're talking about a coilover that has separate compression and rebound adjustments, every company I've seen calls that a 4-way adjustable unit - just using the "parlance of our times".

I was talking about damping adjustability. I wouldn't think ride height would need to change that much either. I mean with a damper set to the proper length and only height adjustment at the spring perch, you should have a more than sufficient amount of adjustment. I mean you won't be able to go from stock ride height to super slammed, but there will still be some adjustment. And if you have a damper with enough travel, helper spring also work. And how many people really raise and lower their car for events versus driving on the street? Besides throwing off the alignment, it's a pain in the ass to do.

And I see what you're saying about the 4-way adjustable coilover versus the 4-way adjustable damper.

And finally, the F-D suspension "secret"... even with super stiff settings EVERYONE runs, there is enough feedback to let the pros drifting on Megan 12/10 setups compete with the D1 guys drifting on Zeals. There's simply not enough difference in how the dampers perform at the stiff end of the valving to differentiate. So for everyone out there who wants to "buy what the pros use on their 240s", its useless, because you'll never run them that stiff. That was my only point ~

I think the suspension setup for a lot of FD teams is lacking. I know there's some teams that are trying to do good suspension work and it shows in their driving and the results. But I'm sure there's a lot of people competing who wouldn't know the difference between minor suspension changes. But we'll see, I'm hoping to work with a couple FD driver's this season in getting some different dampers on the car and getting stuff dialed in, so we'll see how that goes.

In my opinion, the true quality of a coilover system on s-chassis cars comes in how well they perform when NOT set to full stiff - and I'm naturally the first to point out that I have a fantastic benchmark for all my suspension trials - a mostly stock c5 z06. Lowered using extended bolts, but otherwise stock suspension - and damn hard to beat

Lots of shocks won't work well with the adjuster all the way closed. Depending on the percentage of flow meant to go through the adjuster versus the percentage of the flow that goes through other bleed ports, it's going to hurt the performance of the damper to be at full stiff. It depends on how the piston is designed. If there is bleed through the piston and the adjuster is just additional bleeed then it can work as planned, but if the adjuster is the main bleed valve, the closer you get to closing that, the more cavitation and hysteresis you will have. It just means that the piston wasn't designed to be the bleed and blow off circuits. But I've used good dampers that didn't like the upper range of their adjustment.

I'm hoping that people will start to learn that stiff isn't always the best, especially when it comes to damping. A rough ride isn't good for handling or grip. And not having grip isn't good for drifting. So a rough ride isn't good for drifting. Too much rebound also isn't good for drifting, it will slow the car down in the transitions and you will be fighting to get the car to transition the way you want. A properly valved setup will make the car more point and shoot, it's easier to manipulate, you won't have problems with grip and if you pair it with good spring rates, including sway bars, you will have an awesome setup.

The problem is most people seem more concerned with height adjustability than damping. But not many people know what good damping is or feels like. But everyone knows what low looks like. But hopefully the work that myself, veilside180sx, aceinhole and others are doing will start to show people that good damping will help the car and possibly breaking some of the misconceptions or general brainwashing that has happened in the 240 world in regards to suspension setups.

Tim

[SicBastard]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

And besides physical testing of different setups, a lot of math will also get you pretty close to the right base setup. I have some pretty serious spreadsheets that I have been using for the past couple years to get base setups for different cars. But they're a lot more in depth and detailed than most people would ever go. But even just looking at ride frequencies and picking springs based off that would be simple and people could do it.

Tim

Thanks again for your contributions guys!

Does anybody know the actual measurements of the control arms on a 240sx, that could be used to calculate ride frequencies?

How do you modify/quanitfy the change that is needed in your spring rates with changes in anti-roll bars? Any spread sheets you're willing to share?

I might need to make a trip to PA once my ohlins show up! I'm curious how well matched they are going to be right to left.

[bziggers13]

I love my stances...
good for dding on, imo

[Koopa Troopa]

Apparantly my custom built Topline Aragosta's have made my car a whole new beast in comparison to the Cusco Comp S that used to be on the car...

Friend said they're on the softest setting too...

[Aeroscraper326]

Aragosta Dampers are amazing, and well worth the money like aforementioned.

[Wiisass]

Originally Posted by SicBastard

Thanks again for your contributions guys!

Does anybody know the actual measurements of the control arms on a 240sx, that could be used to calculate ride frequencies?

How do you modify/quanitfy the change that is needed in your spring rates with changes in anti-roll bars? Any spread sheets you're willing to share?

I might need to make a trip to PA once my ohlins show up! I'm curious how well matched they are going to be right to left.

The best way to get installation ratios is to actually measure what you want to know. Take the spring off, bolt the shock back up and move the suspension through it's range of travel. Measure height of the wheel center versus shock length and from that you can get installation ratio. And then you just need weights and some quick calcs and you have your frequencies.

As for the spring rates to work with sway bars, it depends on a lot of things. Suspension geometry, cg height and track factor in along with sway bar rates and spring rates. And sway bar rates and spring rates need to be normalized to allow for proper calculations. Because a spring rate doesn't really mean anything without knowing the installation ratio and it's the same for sway bars.

I don't have any spreadsheets that I'm willing to share. Too much time and money have gone into developing them and my simulation programs and if I gave them away it wouldn't be a good business move. But I can do analysis on your setup and I do consulting work for suspension setup and track tuning. So I can help you get everything dialed in.

How are you having the ohlins valved? Did you spec out what valving you want or are they just rebuilding them? Can they provide you with dyno plots for the dampers? Shoot me a PM if you need some help with any of this, we should be able to get something figured out.

Tim

[SicBastard]

The ohlins are just getting rebuilt back to stock specs, at Ohlins USA in NC. They promised that they would send me the dyno sheets when they finished. I bought the ohlins used, and a bit beat up, so I never even installed them. Nobody has any dyno sheets of them, so I thought that I would see how they turned out stock before making any adjustments. I have no problem revalving them if they don't turn out just as I want. I'll post up the sheets here when I get 'em.

I think that I'm going to have to just go pull apart my suspension and measure and weigh everything. I just can't believe that on this suposedly suspension-heavy site, no one has done it before.

How in the heck are we supposed to measure CG height?

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Koopa Troopa

Apparantly my custom built Topline Aragosta's have made my car a whole new beast in comparison to the Cusco Comp S that used to be on the car...

Friend said they're on the softest setting too...

I'm extremely jealous. What spring rates did you get them built for? And did they include the dyno sheets?

[Koopa Troopa]

No, I got them second hand from Up Garage.. They use S15 fronts with custom brake line mounts and the rears are S13 dampers with a custom made bottom mount for short stroke (same as JGTC design).. Spring rates are 9.3/6.5..

[nicku]

anybody heard about D2 coilover? how are they performing compare to pbm?

[Holloway]

What coilovers for a street car that might see the track once or twice a year, but wants the performance boosts for use in street racing as well as track use.
Basically I just want something comfortable yet performance oriented.

[PoorMans180SX]

1. I don't really think this thread is for coilover questions.

2. You should probably read the thread before posting.

But:

nicku: D2's are the same made-in-Taiwan dampers as most of the other stuff.

Holloway: A Koni/Ground Control combo is the best thing for what you're looking for. Search "Is Ground Control Suspension worth it?" and read up.

[SicBastard]

I heard back from Ohlins last week. Their S14 coilovers come set up with 8f/6r springs. They didn't have a "stock" damper dyno-sheet for me but said that they would include one presuming that they could find the adapters needed to mount them in their dyno. I'm really getting the impression that they don't sell/service many of these. Either way, I'm probably going to be heading out to see Tim and his dyno to make sure that they were assembled properly and to find out exactly what the adjustment increments are.

[wickedjester]

i am building a s13 hatch for autocross and i was wondering if any one with auto cross exp. knows of a good coilover for it that is at a resonable price. i was looking at megans track series? please help

[SHIFT_*grind*]

Originally Posted by wickedjester

i am building a s13 hatch for autocross and i was wondering if any one with auto cross exp. knows of a good coilover for it that is at a resonable price. i was looking at megans track series? please help

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

2. You should probably read the thread before posting.

Your question would be answered, and then some, if you'd take a few minutes out of your undoubtedly busy day and read the thread. There is a TON of good info in here. A lot of time, effort, and thought went into some of the posts in this thread. If you even looked at the first few posts, you'd see that a Koni/GC setup is probably the best cost-effective setup you can find.

If you want someone to just lie to you with "get sum megans their cheap and work good," this is the wrong thread.

[wickedjester]

i read most of the posts and didnt find anything especially specific for auto cross i was just looking to hear any ones say on the matter. im just kinda new to this gimme a break