pick up a few more tenths in the ka

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by S14DB

I would love to see your guys EGT's and then your pistons and exhaust valves in 10k miles.

I just think it's funny that none of these guys that advance there timing probably even know that there warping there piston rings.
Or the fact that they had no rebudle to your statement....LOL
S14DB is a pimp!!!! Better reckognize.....

[jmauld]

To be so smart big guy, you still haven't come up with an answer to why I saw a HP and Torque increase when I moved my distributor... Your only answer is that it didn't happen. How convenient of you to ignore the facts, that I've offered you. I guess it's just easier to be an ignorant ass.

BTW, per the PM you sent me. I could care less if you charge people to build their engines and tune their cars. That doesn't make you any less wrong.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by jmauld

To be so smart big guy, you still haven't come up with an answer to why I saw a HP and Torque increase when I moved my distributor... Your only answer is that it didn't happen. How convenient of you to ignore the facts, that I've offered you. I guess it's just easier to be an ignorant ass.

You are doing this all on recollection of memory and still have not proven to the forum a dyno chart which you expressed that you tuned your self and saw these gains. Changing timing just manipulates the power band and how you want to make power from your engine, it will not add to more torque and HP by simply moving the distributor, there are so many other factors involved that I could probably write a book on it.
Years ago I use to tell people that it was O.K to advance at the distributor, but learning from proffesionals, it isn't correct unless I tune the ecu first.
Stock factory setting's beyond having a 7% enrichment in fuel to the engine is still optimized by Nissan to perform well to those particular setting's. Without changing the constant variables to it's ratio on the ecu tune, you won't be making any more power than what Nissan already has to offer. Enhancing the devices will be the only way you can truely ADD power..

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

I just think it's funny that none of these guys that advance there timing probably even know that there warping there piston rings.
Or the fact that they had no rebudle to your statement....LOL
S14DB is a pimp!!!! Better reckognize.....

It's easy to argue when you notice a slight gain and your engine doesn't blow up immediately. Hard to argue with someone that doesn't have an understanding of ignition or cam timing.

[Ichi-Go]

Please do not mention hybridka in your arguement. I do not want that forum to be related to your ignorance. You referred to that tune as the Juan Willy tune? The reason it was called the Jaun Willy tune is becuase Jim Wolf might be kinda mad when he finds out that people are stealing his tunes and using them for free. Are you saying you are going to steal from Jim Wolf, why dont you man up and buy my JWT ecu for 200 bucks instead of stealing intellectual property.

I think you need to research the way a ECU actually works becuase if you bump your base timing it increases the timing in every single area on the ignition map.

Also I always felt a torque increase when timing was advanced. I would like to see a dyno chart showing that HP is increased and torque is lost.

[jmauld]

Originally Posted by S14DB

It's easy to argue when you notice a slight gain and your engine doesn't blow up immediately. Hard to argue with someone that doesn't have an understanding of ignition or cam timing.

First off, we're not discussing cam timing.

Second, how much time should I give before my engine melts down? It hasn't done it in over year, maybe another year? I've also done multiple 30 minute sessions on track spending the majority of the time at WOT. Of course it's going to run hotter, that's the fundamental way that an engine makes power. Do you honestly think that by bumping the timing that I'm running any hotter then adding a turbo to the car?

Please explain the difference between adjusting the timing by 10 degrees with the distributor vs adjusting the timing map inside the ECU by 10 degrees..

[ryan hagen]

Originally Posted by Ichi-Go

Please do not mention hybridka in your arguement. I do not want that forum to be related to your ignorance. You referred to that tune as the Juan Willy tune? The reason it was called the Jaun Willy tune is becuase Jim Wolf might be kinda mad when he finds out that people are stealing his tunes and using them for free. Are you saying you are going to steal from Jim Wolf, why dont you man up and buy my JWT ecu for 200 bucks instead of stealing intellectual property.

I think you need to research the way a ECU actually works becuase if you bump your base timing it increases the timing in every single area on the ignition map.

Also I always felt a torque increase when timing was advanced. I would like to see a dyno chart showing that HP is increased and torque is lost.

to make the car run properly though you should have the ignition tuned via the ecu, not by turning the distributor, in the event of something happening sensor or fuel wise (maf going out) your limp home mod will not be able to function properly because it is counting on that you have it set at 20, not 30. you run the risk of messing things up down the road. when that dyno power increase was charted did you comapre it to what it looked like previous. by bolting on parts and adjusting things like that you rarely make a power increase across the whole curve, normally you shift it around with out a proper tune, there are some things that increase the power across but not many, and one thing you ll notice is you can trade torque for hp, depends on what kinda dyno queen you want.

[jmauld]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

You are doing this all on recollection of memory and still have not proven to the forum a dyno chart which you expressed that you tuned your self and saw these gains.

And you've yet to show a Dyno Chart that proves your view. You've only shown one chart with no comparison runs on it. What was your base timing during the run?

Here are my dyno charts. One is scan of the chart that I received that day. It shows my best runs of one day versus my best run on a previous day.




Below is a chart that shows my initial run before any mods, compared to my best runs from two following visits to the dyno. You'll notice that I have lost no torque at any point.



I've offered the raw data of all of my runs for you to analyze yourself. Don't accuse me of not offering it to you.

[tre]

Originally Posted by jmauld

First off, we're not discussing cam timing.

Second, how much time should I give before my engine melts down? It hasn't done it in over year, maybe another year? I've also done multiple 30 minute sessions on track spending the majority of the time at WOT. Of course it's going to run hotter, that's the fundamental way that an engine makes power. Do you honestly think that by bumping the timing that I'm running any hotter then adding a turbo to the car?

Please explain the difference between adjusting the timing by 10 degrees with the distributor vs adjusting the timing map inside the ECU by 10 degrees..

Is this like adding fuel by increasing fuel pressure vs dumping more through the ecu? Yet it still works the same IF you know what you're doing? lol

[jmauld]

Originally Posted by ryan hagen

to make the car run properly though you should have the ignition tuned via the ecu, not by turning the distributor, in the event of something happening sensor or fuel wise (maf going out) your limp home mod will not be able to function properly because it is counting on that you have it set at 20, not 30. you run the risk of messing things up down the road.

I agree with this, you do lose some of your safety margin. But you should never rely on the ECU to provide 100% protection anyway. Knowing what to listen for yourself is invaluable.

when that dyno power increase was charted did you comapre it to what it looked like previous. by bolting on parts and adjusting things like that you rarely make a power increase across the whole curve, normally you shift it around with out a proper tune,

Take a look at my dyno charts. You'll notice very little shifting of the torque/hp curve. Everything I've done has been external to the engine, and with a stock ECU. Is it the best way to do it? No, but I'm working within the rules of my class and my personal budget.

[ryan hagen]

a stock ka usally dynos around 125 130, so yours has soem parts into it, if you dont mind asking what mods do you have into it?

i run a ka with
s14 upper intake/runners
real cai
pacesetter headers 4 into 1
nology coil
nology coil amp
nology wires(got a deal, seem like a gimik)
aluminum front pulley
centerforce dual friction clutch

thats my n/a car until i finish my sohc piston 11.1:1 comp motor, polished and blanced the rods only other add on will be a 248 intake cam, 11lb fly wheel. use new springs/ ti retainers, have thought and contacted crower about stage 3 or 4 cams. i ve contacted a few about a tune for it, jwt, that ebay guy, and enthapy(sp), all can do it, but all the prices varry. i have a hks egc i just dont know if i m going to put it on my turbo car or my n/a car, its the older electronic hks timing control for distributor engines, i ll have run a stock old toyota coil or msd blaster 2 with it. im going have the rev limit at 8k.

should be a fun motor.

[jmauld]

- CFDF Clutch
- Fidanza Flywheel
- Short Ram Intake
- Hotshot Header
- 3" catback
- Unorthodox Pullies (all except alternator)
- electric fans
- SAFC (pretty much useless on my car, but your's might benefit from it)
- and of course, custom timing advance

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by Ichi-Go

Please do not mention hybridka in your arguement. I do not want that forum to be related to your ignorance. You referred to that tune as the Juan Willy tune? The reason it was called the Jaun Willy tune is becuase Jim Wolf might be kinda mad when he finds out that people are stealing his tunes and using them for free.

There aren't copy writes on tunes, and secondly that tune isn't used anymore. You cannot patent tunes, just names. If Jim Wolf doesn't call it Juan Willy there defenitely isn't a problem, and you have to be stupid to think that JWT programmers don't visit that site to begin with.
I'm defenitely not the first nore the last to let the cat out of the bag.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by jmauld

Take a look at my dyno charts. You'll notice very little shifting of the torque/hp curve. Everything I've done has been external to the engine, and with a stock ECU. Is it the best way to do it? No, but I'm working within the rules of my class and my personal budget.

Yeah but where does it show where your curve was just in the distributor timing. Looking at your charts you kept adding bolt on's as well. This would be much easier to explain taking a stock KA, and just advancing the timing, and just showing those 2 comparative dyno's.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by Ichi-Go

I think you need to research the way a ECU actually works becuase if you bump your base timing it increases the timing in every single area on the ignition map.

I've been researching for years. Everytime you bump timing via the distributor you are heating the plugs and increasing knock, why is that so hard for people to understand?????? we are also talking about a stock ecu nothing that has been changed to seeing less knock...

[ryan hagen]

my turbo car has a 14lb flywheel and i love it. i had a fidanza on my last motor in the n/a car, shouldnt have sold it.

i have 99+ grand am fans in my car too
i have the dreaded s13 cams, lol, its actually a 95 motor that i put my s13 cams from another motor in it, and threw the s13 lower intake on it.

my guess is jwt programers dont need that site. they have a formula set up, all they ask you is do you want a higher rev limter? or they just make it 7k( they didnt ask me), and they ask which maf, what brand and size injectors, and if its weird brand you have to send one in to be tested by jwt flow testing, and they ask your compression ratio, they dont ask what turbo, what cams, or even what intended power level is.
only:

injector type
compression ratio
maf type

[ryan hagen]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

You sir suck at life....

you need to quit that shit, the name calling is a like a little kid, i was on your side through most of this but your making your self look bad.

[jmauld]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

I've been researching for years. Everytime you bump timing via the distributor you are heating the plugs and increasing knock, why is that so hard for people to understand??????

How does the cylinder know the difference between 40 degrees of timing determined by the ECU or 40 degrees of timing determined by the distributor?

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by ryan hagen

you need to quit that shit, the name calling is a like a little kid, i was on your side through most of this but your making your self look bad.

I know I deleted it..^^^^^ Pisses me off when someone calls me ignorant and doesn't know what there talking about...

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by jmauld

How does the cylinder know the difference between 40 degrees of timing determined by the ECU or 40 degrees of timing determined by the distributor?

CKPS has alot to do with that. Don't know how that is relative to knock.....
Or maybe I'm reading your question wrong???

[ryan hagen]

the crank angle sensor is in the distributor, if you have ever seen the crank angle sensor from a sr , the ka is just like but it has a rotor on it also. 4 holes in it tell it what cylinder it is on. thats why advanceing your distributor can be so detrimental. it also throws the crank angle off.

[jmauld]

Okay, I found that program that converts the data files to a graph. Here are two runs, done back to back on the same day with the only change being to the distributor location.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by jmauld

Okay, I found that program that converts the data files to a graph. Here are two runs, done back to back on the same day with the only change being to the distributor location.

Still this is under 3hp gained, and all it has done was increased plug temprature output. This is no where near the 12-13hp you claimed earlier on the page before this.
Still there is no proof of torque gained since only the HP graph is displayed....
I'm willing to bet that if the torque graph was displayed you dropped atleast 1ft/lb for that 3HP. Since that is about what 1ft/lb is equaled to when you devide torque into the equation to get your HP calculation, it's all very relative. Really if this was all you were trying to argue, it's really just peanuts...

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by jmauld

Kompressor logic also wanted a A/F ratio sheet^^^^, theres one right there, and it seems that I'm on the nail with the ratio. above 4000RPM the ratio rides more between 14~12 on the A/F. Anything below 12 is all bad.....
Without the bolt ons the engines A/F would be more around in the high 14's.

[jmauld]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Still this is under 3hp gained, and all it has done was increased plug temprature output. This is no where near the 12-13hp you claimed earlier on the page before this.
Still there is no proof of torque gained since only the HP graph is displayed....
I'm willing to bet that if the torque graph was displayed you dropped atleast 1ft/lb for that 3HP. Since that is about what 1ft/lb is equaled to when you devide torque into the equation to get your HP calculation, it's all very relative. Really if this was all you were trying to argue, it's really just peanuts...

See, I knew you would come up with something, which is why I wasn't really motivated to do the work to get that graph for you.

Here's the same graph with Torque. No losses. You really didn't need to see the torque curve to know this though. If there had been a drop in torque, you would've seen that in the horsepower graph.



I made gradual changes, as I wasn't about to just make one big change and cross my fingers. We bumped the distributor up a few degrees between each run. I picked two of them, to keep the graph simple. You wanted proof, there it is.

[BigVinnie]

Hey I'm not the one making outlandish statements... Your 3 HP is no where near that 12-14hp. I would still rather tune my ecu, than use the distributor, same effect using higher grade octanes....

Originally Posted by jmauld

Working from memory, I gained 12-14hp by adjusting the base timing, which now I'm being told wasn't possible?

It not only isn't possible, it's IMPOSSIBLE. Proof of your 3hp dyno....

[tre]

Oh btw. I ran my advanced distributor for 30k miles. No problems what so ever.

I've ran it for 5k miles on this engine still no problems.

[ryan hagen]

you can see the power band shift, you lost some torque/hp below 3000 but gained it on the top end, but not enough to care about even on a daily driver.you dont see the the complete chart but the way the lines cross it appears that way. but like i said on a daily driver you wouldnt notice 3 or 4 hp loss or gain, 10 or 15 hp higher in band with a low end loss you ll see it in gas mileage, even more so if your like me and then you have a reason to get on it more...lol.......

[ryan hagen]

3hp is possible, you could get 3 hp just by running a 97 octane bs blend, after the ecu does some majic. 10+ hp by proper timing mixxed with other prior mods i could see, 15 to 20 though i doubt. you couldnt take a bone stock car and advance the timing and pull more than 10 hp, i think the other mods these guys have, have alot to do with the hp gains. its like you basic stuff, you can add intake all you want but if you dont open up the exhaust side at all it gets you nothing major, just like if you do something to the fuel or something that effects fue trim,l timing will only complement those mods.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by ryan hagen

you can see the power band shift, you lost some torque/hp below 3000 but gained it on the top end,

Actually I just noticed that as well. The shop he had his engine tuned even cut the blue graph early. Losing any lowend doesn't comprimise a better 1/4mile time.....

I'm also baffled, as to why the graph isn't consistent and starts somewhere after 3000RPM, instead of 2000~1500RPM?????? There is alot of Data that isn't consistent.