Marijuana Legalization Debate *NO PICTURES*

[S14_Kouki]

Originally Posted by Sleepy240

Who controls the Marijuana? The US clearly would have to devote a huge portion of property to even produce it. And what happens if cigarette companies for example to decide to produce and sell marijuana? People will surely complain when they have to pay whatever price they set for it, why because they can. I mean how do you decide who will actually produce and sell the product? Obviously it will have to monitored for various factors, quality, quantity etc. I am sure brands would have to meet certain criteria. The fact is, it just isn't that simple. On top of those issues the biggest problem is the providing such a large amount of product. Since a lot of other countries rely on the US to purchase a large quantity of illegal drugs it will create a lot of tension between these groups and our country. Maybe you see things differently.

And to be honest it isn't a "simple" business, and there really aren't a whole lot of exploits with alcohol or tobacco for that matter. As to the best of my knowledge the last Alcohol that was illegal was Absinthe and that was legalized in 2007 or 2008 I believe. On top of that instead of dealers selling "harmless marijuana", since it will now be legal, taxed, and monitored, they will probably be forced to sell harder drugs to make their ends meat. Since a lot of them use this as their only form of income, especially in large cities like Los Angeles or New York. All this does in all honesty is perpetuate the problem and make drugs an even larger issue.

Lastly what about all the states that already have smoking bans. Most of which include smoking in bars, restaurants, and work places. Do you really want a bunch of people walking around the streets smoking marijuana? Personally if it does go through the legalization process I would assume it would be considered much like alcohol, where consuming walking around the street is against various city and state ordinances.

1. Who controls? That would be the US government. I mean that is part of there job.

2. What happens the the cig company's if the produce and sell??? Well they make more money. Its that simple. They have to be priced to compete with other company's.

3. I mean how do you decide who will actually produce and sell the product? Theres billions on $$$ ment to be made im sure it wont be hard. Plus how do you think cig and alcohol company's started?? Same way the marijuana company's will start.

Yes its not simple but its not hard ether. We just have to get the ball rolling. Yes countrys rely on us but shit we rely on them just as much. Have u seen all the out sourcing we Americans do.

Why will they be forced to sell harded drugs I dont understand this.

What about smoking dans? I dont think there are any cases of second hand cancer from marijuana. But for that matter im sure they will go by the same guide lines has ciggs.

[HalveBlue]

Here's what I wanna know:

Sleepy, if you're so dead set against drugs, why do you sport a Fear and Loathing avatar?

[Sleepy240]

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

Here's what I wanna know:

Sleepy, if you're so dead set against drugs, why do you sport a Fear and Loathing avatar?

Because I find the movie to be very funny, I also like Johnny Depp not that it really matters. I am confused about your reason for asking but ok! I suppose if you like horror movies you must support murder and torture?

[HalveBlue]

No, I just found it curious that someone so vehemently opposed to drugs references one of the most prolific drug movies of all time.

Like I said, I was just curious.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by Sleepy240

Just because its a natural, and un-processed product does not mean it doesn't need to be tended to, and monitored. It would be just like any other crop as you stated just like growing carrots. Except the difference is people WANT marijuana, when was the last time you heard of somebody stealing from a carrot farm? My point being there, NO doubt would these "farms" require extra security measures etc.

Are you trying to claim that there will be a nationwide epedemic of theft from marijuana farms? I mean, REALLY? You're using THAT as a point of argument??? That is pretty far fetched.

On top of that your saying it would need to be grown indoors, which last time I checked still requires plots of land for large greenhouses. Just to give you an idea a survey which is outdated by a couple years estimated Americas marijuana consumption at 17.9 million pounds per year. Marijuana typically yields 400-500 pounds per acre. Even on the high end of 500 pounds that relates to almost 36,000 acres to dedicate to growing the marijuana. On top of that this is just an estimate it could easily be more since a lot of people are not particularly open about drug use. On top of that you are very incorrect about the US being a top producer of marijuana. Mexico, Paraguay, Columbia, Brazil, and 4 or 5 countries in Africa for example are leaps and bounds ahead of America.

You do realize that 36,000 acres is NOTHING right??? There is far more acreage in california alone producing marijuana right at this moment. The growers already operating in the united states can fully supply any demand pretty much immediately. You're an east coast kid, and you really think you know about the marijuana trade??? I'm a white, suburban, cali kid... I was knee deep in the marijuana trade for most of my high school and immediate post high school years. I know exactly where it's coming from and most of it is not imported, it's grown locally.

My point being is that I can quite easily see how we could anger some groups of illegals that already have a reason to despise us. It is also pretty simple to see how that angry could grow into some type of action or attack on our soil. I'm not saying it will, but I could see how that could easily escalate.

Again with the paranoid delusional shit. Seriously, terrorists will not come to kill us all if we legalize pot.

All I am doing is slinging my opinions whether you like them or not is irrelevant. Sure they will always sell drugs but rather than everybody and their "harmless marijuana" they will be FORCED to deal cocaine etc. since in this instance (with marijuana being legalized) there would be no conceivable reason to buy from a dealer. It makes perfect sense, supply and demand. To the best of my knowledge the personnel and money are more a "blanket" program, it is not the War on Marijuana as many would like to believe.

And all I am doing is debating your opinions because I find your points of argument to be ridiculous. As far as I am concerned your argument has no legs to stand on and if you want me to respect it you are going to have to make some good, valid points. You have failed to do that so far and are spouting mostly just paranoid, conservative, bullshit.

[drift_limo]

Originally Posted by Sleepy240

Because its just like any other prescribed drug, it can be ABUSED

Its weed! how can you abused weed? seriously? oh no you can smoke a whole pound. its still safer then anything out there.
You dont die from it.
You dont get the urge to steal or kill.

Originally Posted by S14_Kouki

See I dont like this. Because ppl ABUSE alcohol everyday and die from it but yet its still ok. Just like ciggs ppl ABUSE ciggs by smoking 2 or 3 packs a day and die from it. But you dont see anyone fighting to get alcohol or ciggs out of the streets. I mean there are groups that dont want it around but shit there nothing compared to the amount of ppl that use.

DITTO!

[Sleepy240]

Originally Posted by racepar1

Are you trying to claim that there will be a nationwide epedemic of theft from marijuana farms? I mean, REALLY? You're using THAT as a point of argument??? That is pretty far fetched.

You do realize that 36,000 acres is NOTHING right??? There is far more acreage in california alone producing marijuana right at this moment. The growers already operating in the united states can fully supply any demand pretty much immediately. You're an east coast kid, and you really think you know about the marijuana trade??? I'm a white, suburban, cali kid... I was knee deep in the marijuana trade for most of my high school and immediate post high school years. I know exactly where it's coming from and most of it is not imported, it's grown locally.

Again with the paranoid delusional shit. Seriously, terrorists will not come to kill us all if we legalize pot.

And all I am doing is debating your opinions because I find your points of argument to be ridiculous. As far as I am concerned your argument has no legs to stand on and if you want me to respect it you are going to have to make some good, valid points. You have failed to do that so far and are spouting mostly just paranoid, conservative, bullshit.

Quoting long posts suck so I will respond with my points here...

#1 - I think stating the fact that there will be more crime associated with a "Marijuana Farm" than with say a carrot farm, is nothing more than a fact. It truth that ALL drugs (not just marijuana) lead to an increase in crime activity. It may not be huge but there are differences.

#2 - 36,000 Acres is quite a bit of a land that could be used for many things other than just "farms". You also seem to forget the fact that the land must be demo'd, replained, set up for various irrigation systems, water, electricity etc. The list goes on and on. I understand its totally doable, I have no doubt, it will be a serious investment that right now. The government has a hard enough time trying to reform healthcare.

#3 - It would be great if all of the California's growers could meet the US's demand for Marijuana. If that was the case you think other countries would be selling their product here? On top of that even these growers would have to be under US standards for the drug then. Meaning the way they grow it might not be up to the way the government would want it grown and controlled.

#4 - Cool story about being a Cali kid who slings drugs... Err used to sling drugs. I suppose your small time dealings is supposed to make me believe that all of the worlds marijuana comes from California because you have seen it with your own eyes. I guess we can't all be Scarface wannabes.

#5 - Its not delusional its totally rational. Hello the US has been attacked simply for its standings with other nations. I am talking about another 9/11? Probably not, but the US has enough enemies as it is. If you honestly think legalizing Marijuana is going to make that situation any better I have to disagree.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by Sleepy240

Quoting long posts suck so I will respond with my points here...

#1 - I think stating the fact that there will be more crime associated with a "Marijuana Farm" than with say a carrot farm, is nothing more than a fact. It truth that ALL drugs (not just marijuana) lead to an increase in crime activity. It may not be huge but there are differences.

And there will be an even greater decrease in crime related to the illegal distribution of marijuana. Our prison system is clogged with minor drug offenders as it is, legalizing marijuana would take a large burden off the system.

#2 - 36,000 Acres is quite a bit of a land that could be used for many things other than just "farms". You also seem to forget the fact that the land must be demo'd, replained, set up for various irrigation systems, water, electricity etc. The list goes on and on. I understand its totally doable, I have no doubt, it will be a serious investment that right now. The government has a hard enough time trying to reform healthcare.

No it really isn't a lot of land, as a matter of fact 36,000 acres is insignificant. The financial burden of setting up the grow system would land solely on the bank accounts of the growers themselves. The government has nothing to do with that, they just collect the taxes and charge for the permits to operate. All that additional income could be used for things like healthcare reform, which we desperately need.

#3 - It would be great if all of the California's growers could meet the US's demand for Marijuana. If that was the case you think other countries would be selling their product here? On top of that even these growers would have to be under US standards for the drug then. Meaning the way they grow it might not be up to the way the government would want it grown and controlled.

If we legalized marijuana there would be no reason for other countries to import it here. We are perfectly capable of supplying ourselves.

#4 - Cool story about being a Cali kid who slings drugs... Err used to sling drugs. I suppose your small time dealings is supposed to make me believe that all of the worlds marijuana comes from California because you have seen it with your own eyes. I guess we can't all be Scarface wannabes.

Who said anything about me personally selling drugs? I didn't say that. All I am saying is that I have personal experience with what you are trying to tell me about. The scarface comment is cute BTW.

#5 - Its not delusional its totally rational. Hello the US has been attacked simply for its standings with other nations. I am talking about another 9/11? Probably not, but the US has enough enemies as it is. If you honestly think legalizing Marijuana is going to make that situation any better I have to disagree.

No, it is pure paranoid delusion. There is no logical reason to think that anybody would do anything to attack the US as a direct, or indirect, result of legalizing marijuana. In fact according to conservative sources marijuana money funds terrrorists (*cough*bullshit*cough*), so legalizing it would cut their funding. This is un-questionably the single stinkiest pile of bullshit that I have ever heard anyone spout out regarding the legalization of marijuana.

[sb253]

uhh, that guy thinks mexican terrorists will plan an attack on the USA because we dont buy their brick weed anymore?


srsly?


hahahahaha

[BustedS13]

what the fuck happened here?

-Wisconsin is voting next month on MMJ.
-Illinois is voting next year on MMJ.
-California is voting next year on LEGALIZING.
-Breckenridge, CO has decriminalized. you can possess up to an ounce without prosecution from county police.
-the AMA suggests we reconsider marijuana's standing as a Schedule I narcotic.
-Obama has called off the fed on busting businesses that are legal at state level.
-my own state, Missouri... our biggest college town, Columbia, aka Mizzou, aka GO TIGERS... you can possess 35 grams (over an ounce) and if you get caught, it's like a $75 fine and they don't arrest you or take your pot.
-my state will be voting on MMJ within the next two years.
-the country's view on medical has changed quite a bit since Prop 215. now over 40% of Americans support medical marijuana. they're saying it goes up bout 2% every year, so it's quite possible that the majority of the COUNTRY will be for MMJ within the next decade.
-13 states allow MMJ. several of those allow dispensaries.

the times, they are a changin'. i fully expect marijuana to be taxed and controlled the same as alcohol or tobacco within the next 15 years.

now stop bickering amongst yourselves and consider the facts.

[HalveBlue]

Originally Posted by BustedS13

now stop bickering amongst yourselves and consider the facts.

But it's SOOOOOOO much easier to forgo logic and common sense and just act on impulse and puritanical theories.

[BustedS13]

go ahead and watch this if you haven't:

Penn and Teller - Bullshit - War On Drugs [VUTRA.TV]

[racepar1]

Marijuana was originally banned because William Randolph Hearst ran a large scale smear campaign against it in the 1930's. Hemp was poised to be used for paper production and Mr. Hearst apparently had a great amount of interest in the timber industry...

I watched Family Guy and learned something! LOL!

[drftmark]

Originally Posted by Sleepy240

I understand its totally doable, I have no doubt, it will be a serious investment that right now. The government has a hard enough time trying to reform healthcare.

unlike healthcare this would actually produce a profit...

[BustedS13]

yeah, i'd really like to know where the "investment" is in lightening laws on marijuana. you're preventing thousands of unnecessary arrests, letting law enforcement focus on shit that matters, saving billions on anti-drug campaigns, and gaining funds by taxing the new product. if anything, this would pile on money for the government to use for whatever unnecessary stupid shit they want to do.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by BustedS13

yeah, i'd really like to know where the "investment" is in lightening laws on marijuana. you're preventing thousands of unnecessary arrests, letting law enforcement focus on shit that matters, saving billions on anti-drug campaigns, and gaining funds by taxing the new product. if anything, this would pile on money for the government to use for whatever unnecessary stupid shit they want to do.

The problem is that it just makes too much sense...

[drift_limo]

Originally Posted by sb253

uhh, that guy thinks mexican terrorists will plan an attack on the USA because we dont buy their brick weed anymore?


srsly?


hahahahaha

We serious foo.
we wont mowe your lawns jotos! lol

seriously? mexican terrorist? what happend to just us being border jumpers? how the times have changed.

the cartels are and have invested in canada and some legal farms. same thing here in the US along with the goverment and tabacco companys jsut waiting to jump on the franchise of MMJ.

Originally Posted by BustedS13

what the fuck happened here?

-Wisconsin is voting next month on MMJ.
-Illinois is voting next year on MMJ.
-California is voting next year on LEGALIZING.
-Breckenridge, CO has decriminalized. you can possess up to an ounce without prosecution from county police.
-the AMA suggests we reconsider marijuana's standing as a Schedule I narcotic.
-Obama has called off the fed on busting businesses that are legal at state level.
-my own state, Missouri... our biggest college town, Columbia, aka Mizzou, aka GO TIGERS... you can possess 35 grams (over an ounce) and if you get caught, it's like a $75 fine and they don't arrest you or take your pot.
-my state will be voting on MMJ within the next two years.
-the country's view on medical has changed quite a bit since Prop 215. now over 40% of Americans support medical marijuana. they're saying it goes up bout 2% every year, so it's quite possible that the majority of the COUNTRY will be for MMJ within the next decade.
-13 states allow MMJ. several of those allow dispensaries.

the times, they are a changin'. i fully expect marijuana to be taxed and controlled the same as alcohol or tobacco within the next 15 years.

now stop bickering amongst yourselves and consider the facts.

ditto.

Originally Posted by BustedS13

go ahead and watch this if you haven't:

Penn and Teller - Bullshit - War On Drugs [VUTRA.TV]

seen that before.

[BustedS13]

Drew Carey in defense of medical marijuana:

[dert420sx]

oh cool! ^^ that's the first dispensary i went to a few years ago when i first got my recommendation.

drew carey knows of it now. i wonder who else?

[BustedS13]

^pretty confident anybody who has ever heard the word "marijuana" knows what Farmacy is.

[dert420sx]

I had a pretty good conversation about legalizing marijuana with an old guy I met at the dispensary yesterday.
His thought as to why gov't. does not want to legalize herb was because they would lose so much revenue from it being illegal,
much like the revenue the mobs lost when they ended prohibition.

This got me thinking. California votes on legalizing next year. What would the impacts be on the economy when everyone convicted of marijuana-related crimes are released? Where would the estimated hundreds of thousands of people convicted of victim-less crimes relating to marijuana go in this already-too-crowded state? Would rent skyrise?

The Governator recently approved billions to build new prisons. Would the prison industry be hit hard when there are no bodies in the cells? Or better yet, would they lobby even harder to keep it illegal? What about the prison guards, or the defense lawyers, or even the people who clean prisons, do laundry, and cook the meals. Wouldn't they be affected as well?

As you can see, there are lots of honest people benefiting from mj being illegal. I think the government is holding back because they don't want to pull the rug out from anybody just for the sake of a certain demographic's needs.

Every stoner wants to preach legalizing the herb for the sake of freedom to indulge as their heart desires without oppression. But nobody ever looks deeper than illegal vs legal.
Would marijuana take a big chunk of the economy with its being declared legal?
Would the economy go to the shitter once the gov't loses that bit of their revenue?
Would we really be saving more money by freeing these prisoners whose board and lodging averages over $30k/year of taxpayers money?

I think we've heard enough stoners in this thread singing the same song. Let's hear some mature "big picture" ideas for the legalizing of it for the benefit of everyone, medical or recreational. For ex: setting acceptable tax rates, setting a minimum age, community education/awareness/public service announcements etc.

Please discuss.

[BustedS13]

how does the government profit from keeping it illegal?

-the government pays to keep those people in prison
-the government pays to keep police/feds on marijuana related crime instead of anything important
-the government pays for anti-marijuana advertisements

when an 18 wheeler full of pot is seized, they don't get to resell it to canada or something. it's destroyed. so where is the profit?

the only benefit i could see from that standpoint would be keeping a ton of people employed. but if marijuana were legal, there would be new jobs in that field (manufacture, marketing, farming, everything that keeps the tobacco business going but without the shame of killing millions)

[S14_Kouki]

Originally Posted by dert420sx

I had a pretty good conversation about legalizing marijuana with an old guy I met at the dispensary yesterday.
His thought as to why gov't. does not want to legalize herb was because they would lose so much revenue from it being illegal,
much like the revenue the mobs lost when they ended prohibition.

This got me thinking. California votes on legalizing next year. What would the impacts be on the economy when everyone convicted of marijuana-related crimes are released? Where would the estimated hundreds of thousands of people convicted of victim-less crimes relating to marijuana go in this already-too-crowded state? Would rent skyrise?

The Governator recently approved billions to build new prisons. Would the prison industry be hit hard when there are no bodies in the cells? Or better yet, would they lobby even harder to keep it illegal? What about the prison guards, or the defense lawyers, or even the people who clean prisons, do laundry, and cook the meals. Wouldn't they be affected as well?

As you can see, there are lots of honest people benefiting from mj being illegal. I think the government is holding back because they don't want to pull the rug out from anybody just for the sake of a certain demographic's needs.

Every stoner wants to preach legalizing the herb for the sake of freedom to indulge as their heart desires without oppression. But nobody ever looks deeper than illegal vs legal.
Would marijuana take a big chunk of the economy with its being declared legal?
Would the economy go to the shitter once the gov't loses that bit of their revenue?
Would we really be saving more money by freeing these prisoners whose board and lodging averages over $30k/year of taxpayers money?

I think we've heard enough stoners in this thread singing the same song. Let's hear some mature "big picture" ideas for the legalizing of it for the benefit of everyone, medical or recreational. For ex: setting acceptable tax rates, setting a minimum age, community education/awareness/public service announcements etc.

Please discuss.

A couple things here. Lets get things straight first the economy in cali already sucks balls. When all these ppl are released theoretically the economy would go up cause there will be more ppl out there spending money paying taxes. All the ppl will prob get a job and rent/buy a apartment/house. Why would rent go up? I say no n that. Im sure the landlords will be happy pp are filling up there rentals.

I think we can save some of those billions of $$$$ since theres going to be a big drop in inmates. There will be plenty on ppl in the cells considering how jails are way over crowed anyways. We will always need prison guards its not like everyone is getting released. defense lawyers will still be needed as well maybe not as many but still a good amount. And the ppl that clean the jails cook and laundry that is all done by the inmates them selfs.


Inmates do pay I think it is like 5$ a day to be in jail so they dont stay there for free. I really think that the economy will go up and I do think stuff will get better with weed being legal. They will make more money off of weed then there could ever think.

[BustedS13]

Originally Posted by S14_Kouki

Inmates do pay I think it is like 5$ a day to be in jail so they dont stay there for free. I really think that the economy will go up and I do think stuff will get better with weed being legal. They will make more money off of weed then there could ever think.

that's definitely not true everywhere... but inmates do take part in work programs, which is pretty much slave labor.

[grey240sx]

my brother just got his medical card in california for weed. he can buy the weed from the clinic, which he does, or you can buy a small plant for $20 and grow it and sell it back to the clinic for a couple of thousands of dollors

[BustedS13]

Originally Posted by grey240sx

my brother just got his medical card in california for weed. he can buy the weed from the clinic, which he does, or you can buy a small plant for $20 and grow it and sell it back to the clinic for a couple of thousands of dollors

i wouldn't think that there'd be much demand for LEGAL patient-grown medicine at this point. i'd imagine there's plenty of commercial growers in california. i don't know.
it sounds like a helluva way to make money, though.

edit: Pennsylvania had a MMJ debate today.

http://www.rantrave.com/Rave/Medical...nsylvania.aspx

and the senate is debating reevaluating the drug war tomorrow.

From Norml:
This Thursday: US Senate Committee To Debate Reevaluating The Drug War! | NORML Blog

Quote:
Senate Bill 714 will establish a `National Criminal Justice Commission’ to “undertake a comprehensive review of the criminal justice system … and make reform recommendations for the President.” The lead sponsor of this measure, Democrat Senator Jim Webb of Virginia, has remarked that this review ought to include a debate of federal marijuana policy, including regulating marijuana like alcohol.
Click here to see if your Senator is on the this committee!
Committee Members

Click here to contact your representative and tell them you want them to support Senate Bill 714
Contact Officials - NORML


these don't mean too much but at least SOMETHING is happening. it seems like there's more news on marijuana decriminalization every day.

[Sleepy240]

Originally Posted by grey240sx

my brother just got his medical card in california for weed. he can buy the weed from the clinic, which he does, or you can buy a small plant for $20 and grow it and sell it back to the clinic for a couple of thousands of dollors

If you wouldn't mind indulging us, what medical condition does your sibling has that requires marijuana? Has he tried other treatments? And lastly does he find marijuana to be effective?

Also I find it kind of shady that a clinic would be looking to purchase back marijuana that is grown

[Future240]

Originally Posted by BustedS13

i wouldn't think that there'd be much demand for LEGAL patient-grown medicine at this point. i'd imagine there's plenty of commercial growers in california. i don't know.
it sounds like a helluva way to make money, though.

Hmmm....sounds a bit too easy.

[BustedS13]

Originally Posted by Sleepy240

I
Also I find it kind of shady that a clinic would be looking to purchase back marijuana that is grown

somebody has to grow it. you can't sell a product that doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by future240

Hmmm....sounds a bit too easy.

it's still a federal crime, if that helps any.

[Future240]

^ it does.

Marijuana and alcohol are so similar to me. So many different types of both, ranging from some that give you a slight buzz to puttin you on your ass. They both have addictive qualities, though one more than the other. It is possible to intake either and be a functioning member of society or ruin your life. Both can be helpful health wise.

Even if it were legalize you will always have naysayers, some just won't do it, others will try to say it's wrong. Just like alcohol does now.

IMO it being natural and not some chemist experiment makes it cool.