E85 thread

[HKSalex]

Originally Posted by sil14zenki

no head gasket or studs.... thats impressive

no sir, none of that. i on my 91 map im making 400ish awhp @ 26psi and on e85 im making 480ish awhp at 30psi. but arp head bolts are on order

[s13 loverr]

Does anyone know where to buy drums of e85?

[LuckyX2]

So instead of making my own topic I figured I'd just post here.

I'm looking at an injector/turbo upgrade and a switch to E85 soon after I build my bottom end. I plan on going 10:1 compression, either a GTX2867 or EFR6758, ID1000cc's and an Aeromotive 340lph in-tank pump.

Will this be good for 500whp or so? I'm not worried about the turbos being able to make that power since with 10:1 compression and E85 they should have no problem. What I am concerned about is if the ID1000cc's and 340lph pump will provide enough fuel. The next size up from ID is 2000cc's which I'm concerned I'll have idle problems with so I'd like to stay with the 1000's if I can.

Thoughts?

[LuckyX2]

You guys may also be interested to see that there's finally an E85 pump from Walbro now too...

New E85 Compatible Walbro 485 Fuel Pump! – Dynosty

[Croustibat]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

So instead of making my own topic I figured I'd just post here.

I'm looking at an injector/turbo upgrade and a switch to E85 soon after I build my bottom end. I plan on going 10:1 compression, either a GTX2867 or EFR6758, ID1000cc's and an Aeromotive 340lph in-tank pump.

Will this be good for 500whp or so? I'm not worried about the turbos being able to make that power since with 10:1 compression and E85 they should have no problem. What I am concerned about is if the ID1000cc's and 340lph pump will provide enough fuel. The next size up from ID is 2000cc's which I'm concerned I'll have idle problems with so I'd like to stay with the 1000's if I can.

Thoughts?

I thought IDs also had 1200 and 1600cc injectors ?

1000cc may be a bit limiting, but it depends on the injector duty you aim for, engine and revs you are planning to run. On a CA18DET I would be more concerned about the ecu/injector driver system being unable to drive big low Z injectors.

Fuel pump should do OK.

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

You guys may also be interested to see that there's finally an E85 pump from Walbro now too...

New E85 Compatible Walbro 485 Fuel Pump! – Dynosty

I have been using the standard walbro 255 LPH for years now, and it is still working fine.

The major problem with fuel pumps is keeping the fuel pressure high when @ WOT, but it also is a fuel pipe diameter problem more than a fuel pump problem.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by Croustibat

I thought IDs also had 1200 and 1600cc injectors ?

1000cc may be a bit limiting, but it depends on the injector duty you aim for, engine and revs you are planning to run. On a CA18DET I would be more concerned about the ecu/injector driver system being unable to drive big low Z injectors.

Fuel pump should do OK.




I have been using the standard walbro 255 LPH for years now, and it is still working fine.

The major problem with fuel pumps is keeping the fuel pressure high when @ WOT, but it also is a fuel pipe diameter problem more than a fuel pump problem.

Nah, they discontinued their 1600's (not sure if they ever had 1200's). So it's either 1000cc or go all out on 2000cc's. And another thing to note is that they're not even really 1000cc since they're 1000cc at 4bar and not 3bar like most other injectors are rated at. I'll be running at 4bar anyway but I'd rather buy a 3bar 1000cc injector and get about 1150cc out of it at 4bar than get the ID's and only have 1000cc at 4bar. ID's are quality pieces tho...

What about these injectors?
120LB 120 LB 1200CC LUCAS DELPHI BOSCH FUEL INJECTOR E85 | eBay

1225cc @ 3bar should more than satisfy my fuel needs, especially when I turn it up to 4bar. They're cheap at only $65 a piece and name brand, not some shitty redrills. My concern is if they'll fit in the fuel rail and intake manifold though. I'm not too sure of the different types of injectors but these seem to be the same style as the RC Engineering ones marketed for sr20's. I'm assuming just the generic SR top mount rail would work on these?

And as for the fuel pump, I wasn't too concerned about the whole E85 resistant thing. I'm just more excited about having 400lph+ in-tank pumps finally. The walbro 400 and 485 are basically the same but the 485 is "E85 approved" and costs like $80 more ha. I might just throw in the Walbro 400lph since I haven't really read a whole lot about E85 ruining pumps and I'm not too worried about it. Perhaps I shouldn't take that risk on something as important as the fuel system tho... Are there any fitment issues with the 400/485? It looks like they're a little bigger than the traditional 255.

[Vetal]

I think those "LUCAS DELPHI BOSCH" are on the cheap side.
I would really advise to get injectors from Fuel Injector Connection, I've got set of ~1000cc for V8 from them and they were very equal in flow, unlike set of ~1000cc that I've got from Ebay (on my CA18DET now). Especially since price is almost the same

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by Vetal

I think those "LUCAS DELPHI BOSCH" are on the cheap side.
I would really advise to get injectors from Fuel Injector Connection, I've got set of ~1000cc for V8 from them and they were very equal in flow, unlike set of ~1000cc that I've got from Ebay (on my CA18DET now). Especially since price is almost the same

Why would I buy rebuilt instead of new? I know it's eBay but Lucas/Delphi/Bosch are good OEM names regardless of where you buy them.

My bigger question is if they'll even fit... How do you go about determining the right style injector? I feel like there are a lot of differences out there between various top feed injectors.

[sdrmiami]

Originally Posted by s15specR

looking good .. how you been?

[sdrmiami]

i been running e85 for a long time 800whp with 1600cc..

[Pinggg]

Also running E-85 on 1000cc Deatschwerks sidefeed injectors on my fully built 400hp SR.

[LuckyX2]

What pressures are you two running your injectors at?

Also, s15specR, how'd you manage to do 600whp with just the ID1000's? You must have had them at some crazy pressure...

[sdrmiami]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

What pressures are you two running your injectors at?

Also, s15specR, how'd you manage to do 600whp with just the ID1000's? You must have had them at some crazy pressure...

Im running mine at 45psi off vacume. my DS on the injectors are around 86ms i am currently doing the vvl swap on my sr and doing a 2.2 (90mm bore) (was 2.1) shooting for 1000whp behind a auto c4 transmission (realisticly 950) and got a custom set or billet 235cc injectors from mike @ moran motorsports. i will keep you guys posted.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by sdrmiami

Im running mine at 45psi off vacume. my DS on the injectors are around 86ms i am currently doing the vvl swap on my sr and doing a 2.2 (90mm bore) (was 2.1) shooting for 1000whp behind a auto c4 transmission (realisticly 950) and got a custom set or billet 235cc injectors from mike @ moran motorsports. i will keep you guys posted.

When you say off vacuum, do you mean at idle (around 20 mm hg) or when the car is off (0 mm hg)? And that was with your 1600cc injectors right?

[S@nt0s]

470whp 398ft lbs @16psi on a base map
Built SR20
Precision 6266
Aem ems
Once I direct wire the fuel pump and replace the return fuel line 30 psi tune will come

[ultimateirving]

Originally Posted by S@nt0s

470whp 398ft lbs @16psi on a base map
Built SR20
Precision 6266
Aem ems
Once I direct wire the fuel pump and replace the return fuel line 30 psi tune will come

these are awesome numbers for low boost!
i put down 300hp with e85 15psi and a stock sr20 with t28, so thats sweet ur getting almost 500!

[S@nt0s]

Originally Posted by ultimateirving

these are awesome numbers for low boost!
i put down 300hp with e85 15psi and a stock sr20 with t28, so thats sweet ur getting almost 500!

Ya I was surprised well being a base map and all. Timing wasnt messed with it was still in the mid teens and fuel was way rich but knowing it made that power do easier is good to know.
Once I wrap up the return line issue we will hit the dyno again 30psi!!!!!!

[S@nt0s]

[inopsey]

94 octane E10 blended premium looks almost as good as E85 when compared using the mon and aki systems for fuel properties.

im talking about this fuel from petro canada ultra94 it has a mon rating of 101.5. meaning that in japan this would be 101.5 octane gas. compared to non blended v power 93-94 aki with only 98 mon rating. when compared to E85 102-105 mon with a aki of 94-96 it looks very close to a bad batch of E85 performance wise without the negative effects of running E85.
i found this data very interesting with all the debate of ethanol blended gasoline and a decrease in performance due to its lower energy content.


FAQs — Questions, Answers, Octane, Gasoline Basics — Petro-Canada is octane?

Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia this chart lists the octane ratings of common fuels and octane boosters used around the world.
http://ethanolrfa.3cdn.net/dd9e74ce1..._rbm6bdgh3.pdf

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by inopsey

94 octane E10 blended premium looks almost as good as E85 when compared using the mon and aki systems for fuel properties.

im talking about this fuel from petro canada ultra94 it has a mon rating of 101.5. meaning that in japan this would be 101.5 octane gas. compared to non blended v power 93-94 aki with only 98 mon rating. when compared to E85 102-105 mon with a aki of 94-96 it looks very close to a bad batch of E85 performance wise without the negative effects of running E85.
i found this data very interesting with all the debate of ethanol blended gasoline and a decrease in performance due to its lower energy content.


FAQs — Questions, Answers, Octane, Gasoline Basics — Petro-Canada is octane?

Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia this chart lists the octane ratings of common fuels and octane boosters used around the world.
http://ethanolrfa.3cdn.net/dd9e74ce1..._rbm6bdgh3.pdf

Sure it has less energy per gram but when you're burning 25-30% more of it...

You're also not considering the evaporative cooling effects which means that a gasoline based fuel with the same octane rating as E85 would not be able to take as much ignition timing even though they are the same octane.

[inopsey]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

Sure it has less energy per gram but when you're burning 25-30% more of it...

You're also not considering the evaporative cooling effects which means that a gasoline based fuel with the same octane rating as E85 would not be able to take as much ignition timing even though they are the same octane.

my fuel economy doesent change more than 10% using e10. (600vs 650km a tank)



when taking about octane there is standardized rating systems (mon ron aki) that are reproducible by anyone using the same conditions for a reason. these ratings are done operating an engine under strict conditions. a mon rating of 105 octane has the same anti knock characteristics weather it is an alcohol based fuel or a petro.

btw i have found when tuning that i have backed off the timing and gained power (afr tuned the same) with this type of fuel indicating that max ve was reached and additional timing had no increase in power.

[Vetal]

Originally Posted by S@nt0s

Ya I was surprised well being a base map and all. Timing wasnt messed with it was still in the mid teens and fuel was way rich but knowing it made that power do easier is good to know.
Once I wrap up the return line issue we will hit the dyno again 30psi!!!!!!

Truly great numbers! What displacement is yours? Is it great turbo that produces such power at such low boost? Or that's not the main reason?

[4x4le]

detonation is caused by hotspots, hot spots can be caused too early ignition timing (which is why people associate detenation with too much timing) or by too lean of a mixture or a combination of both, high egt's in general.

E85 is pretty much fully vaporized by the time the piston is on its compression stroke, it does not light off as quick and has a slower burn. Gas and e85 burn at different temperatures and also take not that the auto ignition temp of gas is MUCH lower than e85.

Comparing these 2 different fuels by their octane rating is like comparing your shit to a tv dinner based on how much corn they contain.

[S@nt0s]

Originally Posted by inopsey

my fuel economy doesent change more than 10% using e10. (600vs 650km a tank)



when taking about octane there is standardized rating systems (mon ron aki) that are reproducible by anyone using the same conditions for a reason. these ratings are done operating an engine under strict conditions. a mon rating of 105 octane has the same anti knock characteristics weather it is an alcohol based fuel or a petro.

btw i have found when tuning that i have backed off the timing and gained power (afr tuned the same) with this type of fuel indicating that max ve was reached and additional timing had no increase in power.

both have balls different sport all together, E85 is in its own realm compared to gasoline. the characteristics of it tuning wise are far more in the perforance side. I am seeing 35 degrees on spool up and 30 up top and that you would do with C16 fuel which is 114-116oct and my E85 is only 100-105oct so how does that work in your comparision? it doesnt like 4x4 said vaporization and the timing factor come into play

[S@nt0s]

Originally Posted by Vetal

Truly great numbers! What displacement is yours? Is it great turbo that produces such power at such low boost? Or that's not the main reason?

im at 86.5mm bore stock sleeves.
the Precision turbos are leading the way with their line of turbos and are pushing the #'s on many engine combos

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Comparing these 2 different fuels by their octane rating is like comparing your shit to a tv dinner based on how much corn they contain.

Lol, well that's one way of putting it...

But seriously, I don't think there's any way pump gas can come close to the power E85 can make. Like S@nt0s said, he's running the same timing he'd be running on 115 octane. Congrats on those numbers btw, S@nt0s (you need an easier name to type tho haha)

Originally Posted by inopsey

my fuel economy doesent change more than 10% using e10. (600vs 650km a tank)

I was talking about using E85. You have to use up to 30% more fuel for that. MPG doesn't take a full 30% hit however because more power is made and you can cruise at the same speed with less throttle/load.

[inopsey]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

detonation is caused by hotspots, hot spots can be caused too early ignition timing (which is why people associate detenation with too much timing) or by too lean of a mixture or a combination of both, high egt's in general.

E85 is pretty much fully vaporized by the time the piston is on its compression stroke, it does not light off as quick and has a slower burn. Gas and e85 burn at different temperatures and also take not that the auto ignition temp of gas is MUCH lower than e85.

Comparing these 2 different fuels by their octane rating is like comparing your shit to a tv dinner based on how much corn they contain.

i see your point when talking turbo engines since lower egt equals lower charge temp, allowing the fuel to further resist knocking/allowing it to act as a higher octane fuel. i am willing to bet that e10 93/94 will out preform non e10 premium fuel since even at e10 there is a cooling effect on the charge on a turbo engine.

in a na engine i want to assume you would not see this variation in knock resistance with a small amount of octane difference since that is the type of engine used for the standard mon ron tests.

[S@nt0s]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

Lol, well that's one way of putting it...

But seriously, I don't think there's any way pump gas can come close to the power E85 can make. Like S@nt0s said, he's running the same timing he'd be running on 115 octane. Congrats on those numbers btw, S@nt0s (you need an easier name to type tho haha)



I was talking about using E85. You have to use up to 30% more fuel for that. MPG doesn't take a full 30% hit however because more power is made and you can cruise at the same speed with less throttle/load.

Thanx but it is my name just using @ for A and 0 for o lol

as far as MPG goes it does go down but it also depends on how you drive.
My old Evo had a dual map tune on it 91/E85. on 91 i would average 250-260 a tank and 210-230 on E85.
others with dual map tunes were getting 210-230 on 91 and 150-180 on E85.

driving habits play a huge part in fuel comsumption but thats a different topic lol.

i used half a tank during my tuning session and that was like 25+ pulls and @ 3.67 a gallon thats perfectly fine with me

Originally Posted by inopsey

i see your point when talking turbo engines since lower egt equals lower charge temp, allowing the fuel to further resist knocking/allowing it to act as a higher octane fuel. i am willing to bet that e10 93/94 will out preform non e10 premium fuel since even at e10 there is a cooling effect on the charge on a turbo engine.

in a na engine i want to assume you would not see this variation in knock resistance with a small amount of octane difference since that is the type of engine used for the standard mon ron tests.

it would be pointless IMO with this E10 stuff as you fuel will be drastically different everytime you fill up less so when just going with E85. Yes E85 varies from station but so will your E10 and since its roughly 90% gasoline you wont have the benefits as we do going E85.
Say its E70 on 1 tank and your is E5 on 1 tank. you will be no different then you would have been on a regular gas tune yet I will still be a ton above power wise even with E70 verus the gas tune, make sense?

[LuckyX2]

$3.67 in Cali for E85? Damn. That's the price of 91 here in Rochester currently. And then E85 is like a dollar cheaper...

[S@nt0s]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

$3.67 in Cali for E85? Damn. That's the price of 91 here in Rochester currently. And then E85 is like a dollar cheaper...

91 is like $4.30 ish right now here