The Future Automotive Thread

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by [240sx]

No manual trans HellCat, no care. TrackHawk w/ AWD if "moPAr bRo". If your gonna neuter the driver involvement with an Auto, might aswell go electric. Tesla if you need the Speed I guess.

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English?

Hellcat Challenger has a TR6060 as standard. 8HP90 is an option.

Sounds like you've never driven a powerful car.

A8 HC is a more enjoyable daily then a M6 car. It's also a better drag car. The trans is brutal fast and the car and hook and go instead of just spin.

The same is true on a laundry list of other hyper performance cars, GTR, GT3, Lambos, etc.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

$85k c8 price is going to be risky, esp with how the economy might turn out. I think the $60k price is kinda moot. why would you be willing to pay that much and skimp on the z51 package if not also the adaptive dampers? Realistically its closer to a $67k car. Not bad at all but to me the grand sport ought to be worth waiting for.

another contender that few people like the camaro ss 1le and zl1. bc they sell so poorly they?re heavily discounted often close to $7 to 10k. manual trans available, strong aftermarket, good steering, no overheating issues unlike the c7 zo6. ride quality extremely punishing. dont see what the fuss is about in terms of visability as long as you raise the seat up a bit

It's not that they sell poorly, it's just GM always over produces where Ford always short builds.

Different philosophies and GM has convinced everyone not to buy without a mark down. Ford on the other hand trained everyone to just accept ADMs.

[Corbic]

[QUOTE=exitspeed;6378532. The manual kills it though. I just don?t care that the auto is faster by .3 of a second. The C8 is just so good too, but same thing. At least there?s hope for the Supra. There zero chance the C8 is getting a manual.[/QUOTE]

Toyota really shit the bed on that one. I mean they could have just charged $2k more for it and had zero dealer orders if they didn't want to actually stock them.

That's basically what Dodge originally did with the TR6060 and the 2008 Challengers. Only the top SRT8 model could get the M6 and it was a $2,500 option. 5 years later it was stupid popular and became available on all R/T, Scatpack, Hellcat and SRT variants of the Challenger.

Corvette being DCT only makes sense. It's a Transaxle and a hyper performance car. Anyone crying about That, GTR, NSX, GT500, Demon, Lambos, McLarens, Porsches etc coming exclusively with these transmissions needs to actually spend some time behind the wheel of one.

[ronmcdon]

camaro sales are okay at face value but pretty dismal given it being under 50k in 2019 and declining consistently, compared to Ford at 70k and the challenger being 60k (not counting the charger at 90k).

fca very clever and makes total business sense to upcharge for a manual. wish this was done more often.

I understand making a manual is not that great profit wise, but I think if the 992 can do it (although forgoing the elsd) and there's demand for it, C8 can do it too. I think buyers who want it won't mind some $2-5k upcharge. its not that bad to drive a higher powered manual. although its less power than the hellcat and gt500, really enjoying my manual zl1

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

camaro sales are okay at face value but pretty dismal given it being under 50k in 2019 and declining consistently, compared to Ford at 70k and the challenger being 60k (not counting the charger at 90k).

fca very clever and makes total business sense to upcharge for a manual. wish this was done more often.

I understand making a manual is not that great profit wise, but I think if the 992 can do it (although forgoing the elsd) and there's demand for it, C8 can do it too. I think buyers who want it won't mind some $2-5k upcharge. its not that bad to drive a higher powered manual. although its less power than the hellcat and gt500, really enjoying my manual zl1

Pretty sure the GT2, GT3 and Turbos are PDK only.

A regular Boxster, Cayman and 911 are not powerhouses and really focus on that more classic driving experience. Porsche likely fears a purest revolt. Also, their transmissions are shared with Volkswagen/Audi. The older 5/6spd 986/987 transmission is just a FWD Passat/A4 transmission. Swaps right over, ask me how I know...

I'm sure someone will adapt a 917/981 transmission to the C8 eventually. You can't use a C6/7 unit because the axle has moved to the front of the transmission instead of the rear.

Either way, Toyota is just dumb. Whole Japanese performance car scene is just fucking dead.

NSX could have been a C8 or McLaren.... But noooooooo.

[mechanicalmoron]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Pretty sure the GT2, GT3 and Turbos are PDK only.

A regular Boxster, Cayman and 911 are not powerhouses and really focus on that more classic driving experience. Porsche likely fears a purest revolt. Also, their transmissions are shared with Volkswagen/Audi. The older 5/6spd 986/987 transmission is just a FWD Passat/A4 transmission. Swaps right over, ask me how I know...

I'm sure someone will adapt a 917/981 transmission to the C8 eventually. You can't use a C6/7 unit because the axle has moved to the front of the transmission instead of the rear.

Either way, Toyota is just dumb. Whole Japanese performance car scene is just fucking dead.

NSX could have been a C8 or McLaren.... But noooooooo.

Purist revolt? Taycan? etc?

Nobody ever sells you what you want, or they couldn't sell you the next revision, that's also not what you want.

You can't compare "new" cars to modified cars. Even new cars, with new mods. If you buy a car and modify it, it's just another modified car, immediately, and the selling points of the new car are pretty moot.

As far as that goes, boxters have the capacity to be something that not much else does, once swapped. They made the same old mistake, and put the superior drive layout in the cheap one.

Turbo taycan?

[[240sx]]

Originally Posted by Corbic

English?

Originally Posted by Corbic

Hellcat Challenger has a TR6060 as standard. 8HP90 is an option.

I was referring to the Original Hellcat, the Charger. If we're talking about useable back seats, why bother with the bloated Challanger when you can get 700+hp, with four doors & better looks? Mustang & Camaro are arguably better performing 2+2 pony cars.

StraightLine performance eventually gets old, automatics only expedite that realization. I get it, they're faster, but still not as enjoyable. (to me, obviously) Give me a GT350 > GT500. People love to regurgitate spec sheets, & hype. Bought a HC redeye? Should've bought a p100d BrUh.

Originally Posted by Corbic

Sounds like you've never driven a powerful car.

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. So there's that.

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[exitspeed]

Originally Posted by [240sx]

I was referring to the Original Hellcat, the Charger. If we're talking about useable back seats, why bother with the bloated Challanger when you can get 700+hp, with four doors & better looks? Mustang & Camaro are arguably better performing 2+2 pony cars.

No, there?s no argument there. The Challenger is better in only better at one thing, brashness. Every single performance comparison (including value) the Camaro ZR1 and the Mustang GT500 win. But there are people that are ok with and absolutely love the Challenger?s power and boaty mcboatface handling. Styling is subjective so there is zero reason to argue over that. Pointless.

This same review has been done over and over and over and over again now and the results are virtually always the same.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-car-showdown/

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by exitspeed

No, there?s no argument there. The Challenger is better in only better at one thing, brashness. Every single performance comparison (including value) the Camaro ZR1 and the Mustang GT500 win. But there are people that are ok with and absolutely love the Challenger?s power and boaty mcboatface handling. Styling is subjective so there is zero reason to argue over that. Pointless.



This same review has been done over and over and over and over again now and the results are virtually always the same.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-car-showdown/

Hard Disagree.

People bitch about the Challengers weight but then fail to ever mention how other cars are just as heavy. Ford put every piece of weight saving trickery into the GT500 and it's only 200lbs lighter.

M5 - 4,370lbs
E65 - 4,515lbs
Panamera - 4,586lbs
Taurus SHO - 4,327lbs
GTR - 3,933lbs
GT500 - 4,225lbs
CT6-V - 4,480lbs

HC Chally - 4,429lbs
HC Charger - 4,586lbs


Heaviest? Sure, but they also cost almost half of what everything else listed while having damn near 50% more power.

Handling is also a misnomer. The LX cars hold their own just fine. They don't handle poorly, they actually do extremely well and will shock you if that's your perception. They are just true street/strip muscle cars that have not been tuned for optimum track performance.

Widebody HC Challenger laps VIR at 2.58 making it quicker then lots of big name sports cars.

Lastly, the Challenger/Charger are better daily drivers then the Mustang and Camaro. G6 Camaro is the size of a Miata with the viability of a coffin. GM took their pony car and went full sports car. Never go full sports car. Sales crashed because of it.

Mustang sounds like ass.

Challenger actually has usable rear seats that will fit an adult. Uconnect is vastly superior to Ford and GMs system. Charger is full size sedan. Both Dodges have huge trunks.

Dodges TR6060 is superior to Fords MT86. Dodges A8 is better then Fords A10.

Dodge has better option packages and better seats.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by [240sx]

I was referring to the Original Hellcat, the Charger. If we're talking about useable back seats, why bother with the bloated Challanger when you can get 700+hp, with four doors & better looks? Mustang & Camaro are arguably better performing 2+2 pony cars.

Hellcat Challenger launched before the Hellcat Charger. No idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Challengers back seats will fit actual adults. The G6 Camaro is a smaller car by magnitudes. That's like comparing a Miata to a Camaro..

Originally Posted by [240sx]

StraightLine performance eventually gets old, automatics only expedite that realization. I get it, they're faster, but still not as enjoyable.

Again, you need to get out of the house.

Originally Posted by [240sx]

Give me a GT350 > GT500.

Have you ever driven either car? Have you even ever driven a DCT car? Even a lowly GTI or TT?

Originally Posted by [240sx]

People love to regurgitate spec sheets, & hype.

Which is exactly what you are doing now. You're regurgitating the "three pedal hype" and just assuming because a car has only two pedals or a heavier curb weight, it will handle poorly, isn't fun to drive, only goes fast straight, gets boring, etc.

[exitspeed]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Hard Disagree.

People bitch about the Challengers weight but then fail to ever mention how other cars are just as heavy. Ford put every piece of weight saving trickery into the GT500 and it's only 200lbs lighter.

M5 - 4,370lbs
E65 - 4,515lbs
Panamera - 4,586lbs
Taurus SHO - 4,327lbs
GTR - 3,933lbs
GT500 - 4,225lbs
CT6-V - 4,480lbs

HC Chally - 4,429lbs
HC Charger - 4,586lbs


Heaviest? Sure, but they also cost almost half of what everything else listed while having damn near 50% more power.

Handling is also a misnomer. The LX cars hold their own just fine. They don't handle poorly, they actually do extremely well and will shock you if that's your perception. They are just true street/strip muscle cars that have not been tuned for optimum track performance.

Widebody HC Challenger laps VIR at 2.58 making it quicker then lots of big name sports cars.

Lastly, the Challenger/Charger are better daily drivers then the Mustang and Camaro. G6 Camaro is the size of a Miata with the viability of a coffin. GM took their pony car and went full sports car. Never go full sports car. Sales crashed because of it.

Mustang sounds like ass.

Challenger actually has usable rear seats that will fit an adult. Uconnect is vastly superior to Ford and GMs system. Charger is full size sedan. Both Dodges have huge trunks.

Dodges TR6060 is superior to Fords MT86. Dodges A8 is better then Fords A10.

Dodge has better option packages and better seats.

Again, I?ll refer to the COUNTLESS reviews by the professionals who drive them back to back to back who have said COUNTLESS times it?s the slowest in every measurable test rather than a Challenger fanboi.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by exitspeed

Again, I?ll refer to the COUNTLESS reviews by the professionals who drive them back to back to back who have said COUNTLESS times it?s the slowest in every measurable test rather than a Challenger fanboi.

First off #fakenews

Anyone worth their salt knows automotive journalism has been dead for 20 years. It's a BS Soy Latte Sipping Circle Jerk affair these days.

Second, it's a misnomer that because a "Journalist" picks a Mustang over a Camaro or the Camaro brakes 8ft shorter then a Challenger that suddenly all other cars are shit. In many cases these are insignificant data points that you won't notice on a daily drive or even in sprinted weekend shinanigans.

Yes I'm a LX Fan! Given the financial and resource constraints FCA is under, they have done an amazing job to build a competitive car. FCA is giving car buyers exactly what they want. There is nothing else like it in the market place.

However, it's not blind loyalty of fanboism that is leading me to defend the car. Internet ignorance and the idiotic journalist hyperbole is just mind boggling and needs to be pushed back on.

Food for thought.

Supra was just the 1994 Hellcat.

What made the car a hit was by the late 90's people realized that you could spend $20k overnighting parts from Japan and barely gap a 15-second Ferrari.

Joking aside, the cars ability to hit 500whp with straight forward mods and hold up to 700whp is what made the MKIV a legend. No one gives a shit about its road racing ability, the (for their time) advanced ABS, strong brakes, steering dynamics, etc.

The car came from the factory able to hold 500whp right out of the box and could blast a 12 second run. Guys would go on to build 4 digit cars and run 8's.

For its time, the Supra was huge and heavy, but had great highway manners and was a baller cruiser with the Targa top.

[spooled240]

It may handle alright, but it just looks so damn big. Cool, but massive. I'm more of a Mustang fan these days.



'18 350R with 2k miles sold for $57k on BaT last week

[[240sx]]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Hellcat Challenger launched before the Hellcat Charger. No idea what the fuck you are talking about.

[emoji114]WRONG.[emoji114] Dodge always meant to headline the Hellcat with the Charger name plate. Lots of people don't know this, but I do. I know people who work at Chrysler, great people, the best people, amazing company. No one knows Plymouth products better than me.[emoji114] You're terrible, you're a third-rate Zilvia Poster, and no one likes you. Go back to your Plymouth Stealth build. [emoji114]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Challengers back seats will fit actual adults.

If fca didn't offer the Charger with the same engine... then sure, I guess that's 'A' check mark on challengers [W] column.

Originally Posted by Corbic

Have you ever driven either car? Have you even ever driven a DCT car? Even a lowly GTI or TT?

Faster than a Slushbox, sure, but still an automatic. Handjob vs Fleshlight. Amirite

Originally Posted by Corbic

Which is exactly what you are doing now. You're regurgitating the "three pedal hype" and just assuming because a car has only two pedals or a heavier curb weight, it will handle poorly, isn't fun to drive, only goes fast straight, gets boring, etc.

No I'm not. I'm speaking for myself, albeit out loud. When it comes to FUN, Manual > Auto.


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[dbeiler]

On the subject of MOPAR

[ronmcdon]

It's totally fine to go full sports car as long as it's not your only car. best to be uncompromising if you can afford that. this is why I keep beater that's easy on gas and reliable.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by [240sx]

Blah blah blah

Imma let you finish, but your join date is 2013. Shouldn't you have moved on to a Subaru by now?

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

It's totally fine to go full sports car as long as it's not your only car. best to be uncompromising if you can afford that. this is why I keep beater that's easy on gas and reliable.

Daily Truck, Weekend Sports Car = Best Combo.

(granted I failed at that one this time around).

My comment about never going Full Sports Car was how in Chevy's quest to be the "best" on paper/track, they alienated their target audience with the G6. They also failed to get that sweet lucrative JDM/240sx Drift Money that swears to God they'd buy a new Turbo-4 IRS manual coupe if someone would only make one!!

This has generally always been the Camaro's problem. It can be technically superior to the Mustang, but it always gives up price, visibility, ease of entry, comfort, ergonomics or styling.. And then the Mustang eats its lunch in Sales.

[spooled240]

What would you rather have:

One fun car that can be daily driven that's not full sports car

Or

A car that's full sports car and a boring/slow daily?

Id rather have one car that does it all.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by spooled240

What would you rather have:

One fun car that can be daily driven that's not full sports car

Or

A car that's full sports car and a boring/slow daily?

Id rather have one car that does it all.

Own a Home
Own Land
Enjoy Road Trips
Have 4 Seasons
Have +2 Friends
Have Shitty Roads
Have a traffic filled commute

Suddenly that slow utilitarian vehicle becomes sexy.

Also, a tuned Raptor would pull buses half the cars on the site.

The real answer is just make more money and have it all.

[exitspeed]

Originally Posted by Corbic

First off #fakenews

Anyone worth their salt knows automotive journalism has been dead for 20 years. It's a BS Soy Latte Sipping Circle Jerk affair these days.

Second, it's a misnomer that because a "Journalist" picks a Mustang over a Camaro or the Camaro brakes 8ft shorter then a Challenger that suddenly all other cars are shit. In many cases these are insignificant data points that you won't notice on a daily drive or even in sprinted weekend shinanigans.

Yes I'm a LX Fan! Given the financial and resource constraints FCA is under, they have done an amazing job to build a competitive car. FCA is giving car buyers exactly what they want. There is nothing else like it in the market place.

However, it's not blind loyalty of fanboism that is leading me to defend the car. Internet ignorance and the idiotic journalist hyperbole is just mind boggling and needs to be pushed back on.

Hard disagree. I?ll give you that there are uneducated guys in the car journalism world, but there are far more that are genuine CAR guys. Especially the old school guys that have been testing these muscle cars from the Big 3 for 40-50 years. There?s just too many who agree the Challenger is the worst performer. And then on top of that you have literally probably hundreds and hundreds of lap times, and quarters and what have yous.

I?m not saying it?s not entertaining, but it?s not a superior car, and it?s been documented ad nauseam.

ALSO, this forum is in general a bunch of enthusiasts that prefer a certain type of sports car: low, light, well balanced and great handling VS a Supra or Challenger forum where guys are busting nuts over jobs of power. You?re just naturally going to get more resistance trying to convince this crowd (and it?s not a ?bunch of poor kids in here that?s why?) to like the big gaudy yacht over the speed boats.

You?re of course not wrong loving your car, but obviously most of us aren?t fans. No biggie.

[spooled240]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Own a Home
Own Land
Enjoy Road Trips
Have 4 Seasons
Have +2 Friends
Have Shitty Roads
Have a traffic filled commute

Suddenly that slow utilitarian vehicle becomes sexy.

Also, a tuned Raptor would pull buses half the cars on the site.

The real answer is just make more money and have it all.

Ok fine, if you had $50k to spend what would you choose?

[ronmcdon]

Originally Posted by spooled240

What would you rather have:

One fun car that can be daily driven that's not full sports car

Or

A car that's full sports car and a boring/slow daily?

Id rather have one car that does it all.

always have enjoyed owning more than one car. beaters dont have to be boring. have the suspension and tires set up on my civic where I can have fun on the canyons but not get in trouble. If I had more self control would get a bike as a daily. If I had to have one car would just keep my evo and call it a day. If it were something new today, I'd get a miata with a manual.

[ronmcdon]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Daily Truck, Weekend Sports Car = Best Combo.

(granted I failed at that one this time around).

My comment about never going Full Sports Car was how in Chevy's quest to be the "best" on paper/track, they alienated their target audience with the G6. They also failed to get that sweet lucrative JDM/240sx Drift Money that swears to God they'd buy a new Turbo-4 IRS manual coupe if someone would only make one!!

This has generally always been the Camaro's problem. It can be technically superior to the Mustang, but it always gives up price, visibility, ease of entry, comfort, ergonomics or styling.. And then the Mustang eats its lunch in Sales.

Agreed its generally been polarizing in many ways which is risky as a business choice, but good for discounts if one wants one. C7 had risks and wasn't doing so well towards the end. at one point you could get a new grand sport well around 55k or less.

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

always have enjoyed owning more than one car. beaters dont have to be boring. have the suspension and tires set up on my civic where I can have fun on the canyons but not get in trouble. If I had more self control would get a bike as a daily. If I had to have one car would just keep my evo and call it a day. If it were something new today, I'd get a miata with a manual.

This is exactly why I bought my FiST because it was a daily that was not that expensive I could totally have fun with in the Canyons and be driven as a daily it It just so happens Ford pulled off sneaking a pretty much Rally car under everyone noses with it. I know several guys running FiST in America Rally as well as Rallycross and Autocross.lol I swear I bought it for a daily, next thing you know I am making rear camber plates for them and have coilovers and 200 treadware track tires on the damn thing.Panning on a larger turbo and helical LSD :lol:
( how the fuck did this happen) I still drive it on daily basis.

I do still have a 97 M3 though I will be selling it in the summer and replacing it with most likely some other kind of full on Sports car. Most likely a Z due to nostalgia . Though I have thought about the Cayman quite a bit. M2 forget it. BRZ not enough power. Supra ? Thought has crossed my mind. GT350 just because I love the sound and fuck its a GT350.
Though I would probably get annoyed with the weight of the GT350 and sell it.

[mechanicalmoron]

Originally Posted by [240sx]

I know people who work at Chrysler, great people, the best people, amazing company. No one knows Plymouth products better than me.

Remarkable, that you could take enough time off diagnosing your tipm, to post that sillyness.

[ronmcdon]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

I do still have a 97 M3 though I will be selling it in the summer and replacing it with most likely some other kind of full on Sports car. Most likely a Z due to nostalgia . Though I have thought about the Cayman quite a bit. M2 forget it. BRZ not enough power. Supra ? Thought has crossed my mind. GT350 just because I love the sound and fuck its a GT350.
Though I would probably get annoyed with the weight of the GT350 and sell it.

I would not stress out about having to decide. maybe get another fiesta st. better yet, get two.

but seriously just to keep the other fiesta stock-ish maybe if you want to daily it. the traffic we have is so bad, even in quarantine I think a 2-300 hp is all you really need for driving in LA.

[TheRealSy90]

Since when is the GT350 heavy?

[Dutchmalmiss]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

Since when is the GT350 heavy?

GT350: ~3760lbs
E36 M3: ~3200lbs
Fiesta ST: ~2400lbs
New Supra: ~3400lbs
350z: ~3450lbs
M2: ~3600lbs
Cayman: ~2900lbs

It's the heaviest of the cars he mentioned.

I think Mel made a good point. Most of us on this forum are preferential towards a certain combination of attributes and that is, for the most part, lightwight and RWD. That was literally what the title of this thread actually used to be; which is also why from my memory of how this thread evolved since the beginning, the upcoming (at the time) FRS/BRZ twins were discussed so much because it COULD'VE ticked so many of our boxes. I love my E46 M3 vert and while it's a wonderful car, at the end of the day I definitely feel the weight during cornering and braking as opposed to my S13 along with friends' Miatas, S2000s, Civic Si, etc.

[TheRealSy90]

And how many of those cars does the GT350 out-handle as well? More than one.