2012 Presidential Election Thread! Let's kick it off early!

[1 88 U]

I'm still waiting for Corbic to explain how public assistance keeps the black man down.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by 1 88 U

I'm still waiting for Corbic to explain how public assistance keeps the black man down.

Explain to me how it's not.

40 years latter African Americans are still on the bottom of the economic latter. Predominantly black cities and districts are still ranked lowest in economic growth, safety and services.


So after trillions of dollars and decades of social uplifting, what do we have to show for all this?

The country is still segregated, culturally divided and the poor are still poor.

You know what, Oprah is a billionaire, that's what changed.

[1 88 U]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Explain to me how it's not.

40 years latter African Americans are still on the bottom of the economic latter. Predominantly black cities and districts are still ranked lowest in economic growth, safety and services.


So after trillions of dollars and decades of social uplifting, what do we have to show for all this?

The country is still segregated, culturally divided and the poor are still poor.

You know what, Oprah is a billionaire, that's what changed.

Correlation does not imply causation. Statistics 101

Before I accuse you of being a bigot I'd like for you to state in your obviously educated opinions as to what you think will raise the black man up by his bootstraps. Please offer a more nuanced answer than "get big gubment out of their lives."

[K_style]

I have questions for you all.

I moved here in state back in 2003 and will be naturalized next year which I will be able to vote(legally) unlike many illegals voting even they do not have rights.

Anyways, I have been listening Glenn Beck and Lars Larson daily basis and they both are obviously anti Democrats. And I do feel strongly agree on many thing with them especially with current Democrats in Oregon doing bad as I see it.
And it all seems to me, Democrats are being similar to communism. Maybe I am going too far, but hearing from Democrats making people relying on their government for everything makes me thing that.
But again, I maybe wrong. I never studied about political and I am new to this.



Ok, here is question I have.

1.What is both parties philosophy? beliefs? and supports?
- I found it and read it about both parties but I would like to hear from forum members what their thoughts are.

2. Have you watched 2016: Obama's America? what are your thought?

Call it dumb question or whatever you want. I only been in state for 8+ years and never found my self and political interested person before until now.

[1 88 U]

Originally Posted by K_style

I have questions for you all.

I moved here in state back in 2003 and will be naturalized next year which I will be able to vote(legally) unlike many illegals voting even they do not have rights.

Anyways, I have been listening Glenn Beck and Lars Larson daily basis and they both are obviously anti Democrats. And I do feel strongly agree on many thing with them especially with current Democrats in Oregon doing bad as I see it.
And it all seems to me, Democrats are being similar to communism. Maybe I am going too far, but hearing from Democrats making people relying on their government for everything makes me thing that.
But again, I maybe wrong. I never studied about political and I am new to this.



Ok, here is question I have.

1.What is both parties philosophy? beliefs? and supports?
- I found it and read it about both parties but I would like to hear from forum members what their thoughts are.

2. Have you watched 2016: Obama's America? what are your thought?

Call it dumb question or whatever you want. I only been in state for 8+ years and never found my self and political interested person before until now.

What country are you from?

Glenn Beck is a Conservative Libertarian not a Republican. We have two parties in this country that hold any kind of power and they vary drastically from region to region as to their positions. Generally speaking the Republican Party is made up of majority white Protestant Christians that want a religious lead totalitarian state and a corporatist class that want not only low/no taxes and no regulations on business but also support government subsidies for said businesses. Democrats tend to be a diverse coalition of "not republicans."

We do not have a leftist party. Only a far right wing party and a center right party that is sympathetic to women, gays, blacks and poors.

[1 88 U]

I'm still waiting for Corbic to explain to me what is keeping the black man down. Last I check it was the War on Drugs, Prision Industrial System, lack of substantial education and aide, racial targeting by police and predatory lenders, but apparently it is due to too much government help?

[LEG1T]

Interested in hearing a reply myself. This has been a great read so far.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by ineedone

"However, federal employees with a master’s degree earned 5% less on average, and those with professional degrees or doctorates earned roughly 23% less than comparable private sector workers."

Hmm... so when the secretary or janitor for the government earns 35k to their private sector counterparts 30k or less... that is an issue... but when a new attorney for the government ears less than 60k and their private sector earns 160k+ that is not an issue?

I guess I see this outrage as kinda... eh... made up.

Your still off...

Federal workers earning double their private counterparts - USATODAY.com

What the data show:

•Benefits. Federal workers received average benefits worth $41,791 in 2009. Most of this was the government's contribution to pensions. Employees contributed an additional $10,569.

•Pay. The average federal salary has grown 33% faster than inflation since 2000. USA TODAY reported in March that the federal government pays an average of 20% more than private firms for comparable occupations. The analysis did not consider differences in experience and education.

•Total compensation. Federal compensation has grown 36.9% since 2000 after adjusting for inflation, compared with 8.8% for private workers.

Go do some research.

In the private industry, when you are losing money you cut jobs and benefits till you can pay your bills. The Government does the opposite, they higher more people because those are votes you can count on next election.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by 1 88 U

I'm still waiting for Corbic to explain to me what is keeping the black man down. Last I check it was the War on Drugs, Prision Industrial System, lack of substantial education and aide, racial targeting by police and predatory lenders, but apparently it is due to too much government help?

So are you saying that only black people do drugs? Hence why they are more likely to be convicted?

Are you saying prisons only target black people? Sounds racist... why didn't the raging racists of the 1950's do that then?

Are you saying judges are rigging these statistics?


Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: Trends by race

Here is the deal homie... You grow up to be your parents.

Check this book out.
Rereading America: Cultural Contexts for Critical Thinking and Writing: Gary Colombo,Robert Cullen,Bonnie Lisle: 9780312405540: Amazon.com: Books



Basically, if you are born in the Ghetto, your mom had you at 16, your dad is in prison and you live off welfare.... you will likely grow up to knock a girl up at 16, live off welfare and end up in prison.

This is the life you know, this is the way you where raised...why should anyone except you do be anything different? Its not about "race". Your not genitally coded one way or the other. It's culture. "Inner city ghetto culture" raises inner city ghetto americans... not wealthy wall-street bankers, not hollywood douche-bags and not middle-class suburbanites.

This is ingrained at every step of your life. From the opportunities you see, to the opportunities you really have. If everyone in your life is all about "fuck school, fuck the man, respect me" - where are you going to learn anything different? School? Please, ever notice how all inner city schools are the same? Keep passing the kids till they get into HS, then blame the HS that 9th grade kids read on a 4th grade level.Then the kid drops out... gets arrest and teachers demand a raise because its hard working 9 months a year.

So to answer your question about Government handouts - yes, they give you just enough to de-centivize you from trying to take that next step. It propitiates the culture of reliance, of "you owe me". Look at the polls, half of America pays no taxes. Surprisingly enough, that same half doesn't give a shit the country is going bankrupt. They are not contributing members to the system, so why should they care if the system is failing?

Further more, how about this... as for causation... 40 years of welfare programs have done nothing to lift up the poor, so even if it's not hurting, it's obviously its not working.

My personal opinion is if you believe in equality you need to transcend race and see things as a form of culture. Culture is learned and taught, its not in our genetic make up. There is bad culture, there is unproductive culture and there is successful culture.

I truly feel special privileges and exceptions should be removed across the board to almost the extent that we stop recording racial data. You'll never get beyond the idea that "He's White" or "I'm Black" if every 15 minutes we are thinking about how many white kids graduated and what do hispanic baseball players make compared to asians ones...

Until you can honestly say everyones rights are important, and not just have special intrest groups focusing one "their group" (like League of United Latin American Citizens) then you are always going to have a divide.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by LEG1T

Interested in hearing a reply myself. This has been a great read so far.

[SimpleS14]

Like a boss....

[Corbic]

I wonder how many people know he is a chain smoker...

[LEG1T]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Thanks for that...right.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by LEG1T

Thanks for that...right.

You don't believe the culture of poverty is what perpetuates poverty?


Are you trying to tell me that there are secrete societies of old white guys with fancy rings sitting around plotting to introduce meth and higher crappy teachers to keep minorities down?

The culture of poverty is a social theory that expands on the cycle of poverty. Proponents of this theory argue that the poor are not simply lacking resources, but also have a unique value system. According to Oscar Lewis, "The subculture [of the poor] develops mechanisms that tend to perpetuate it, especially because of what happens to the world view, aspirations, and character of the children who grow up in it.” (Moynihan 1969, p. 199).

The term "subculture of poverty" (later shortened to "culture of poverty") made its first prominent appearance in the ethnography Five Families: Mexican Case Studies in the Culture of Poverty (1959) by anthropologist Oscar Lewis. Lewis struggled to render "the poor" as legitimate subjects whose lives were transformed by poverty. He argued that although the burdens of poverty were systemic and therefore imposed upon these members of society, they led to the formation of an autonomous subculture as children were socialized into behaviors and attitudes that perpetuated their inability to escape the underclass.

Lewis gave some seventy characteristics (1996 [1966], 1998) that indicated the presence of the culture of poverty, which he argued was not shared among all of the lower classes.

The people in the culture of poverty have a strong feeling of marginality, of helplessness, of dependency, of not belonging. They are like aliens in their own country, convinced that the existing institutions do not serve their interests and needs. Along with this feeling of powerlessness is a widespread feeling of inferiority, of personal unworthiness. This is true of the slum dwellers of Mexico City, who do not constitute a distinct ethnic or racial group and do not suffer from racial discrimination. In the United States the culture of poverty that exists in the Negroes has the additional disadvantage of racial discrimination. People with a culture of poverty have very little sense of history. They are a marginal people who know only their own troubles, their own local conditions, their own neighborhood, their own way of life. Usually, they have neither the knowledge, the vision nor the ideology to see the similarities between their problems and those of others like themselves elsewhere in the world. In other words, they are not class conscious, although they are very sensitive indeed to status distinctions. When the poor become class conscious or members of trade union organizations, or when they adopt an internationalist outlook on the world they are, in my view, no longer part of the culture of poverty although they may still be desperately poor. (Lewis 1998)
Although Lewis was concerned with poverty in the developing world, the culture of poverty concept proved attractive to U.S. public policy makers and politicians. It strongly informed documents such as the Moynihan Report (1965) and the War on Poverty more generally.

The culture of poverty also emerges as a key concept in Michael Harrington's discussion of American poverty in The Other America (1962). For Harrington, the culture of poverty is a structural concept defined by social institutions of exclusion which create and perpetuate the cycle of poverty in America.

[1 88 U]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Check this book out.
Rereading America: Cultural Contexts for Critical Thinking and Writing: Gary Colombo,Robert Cullen,Bonnie Lisle: 9780312405540: Amazon.com: Books

Did you just read the conservative essays and ignore Sam Harris and Michael Moore?

The Ice Cube song is dope but you are missing the point. Once people make the decision to shed themselves of the behaviors that perpetuate poverty, there must be institutions in place to allow them to rise out of it. Plenty of people have used public assistance and education aide to rise out of poverty. You are advocating throwing the baby out with the bath water which I find deplorable.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by 1 88 U

Did you just read the conservative essays and ignore Sam Harris and Michael Moore?

The Ice Cube song is dope but you are missing the point. Once people make the decision to shed themselves of the behaviors that perpetuate poverty, there must be institutions in place to allow them to rise out of it. Plenty of people have used public assistance and education aide to rise out of poverty. You are advocating throwing the baby out with the bath water which I find deplorable.

Michael is as credible a source as Glen Beck.

What you are advocating is to just keep adding water till you drown the baby which I find deplorable.


The solution is not throw more money at the problem, it's use resources wiser.

Nothing makes people spend their money better than not having enough. It's when you have a glut of cash that you waste it on stupid shit. The government is no different, in fact it's worse. Bureaucrats are perpetually hood rich.

[1 88 U]

Oh I see what you're saying. Poor people have too much.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by 1 88 U

Oh I see what you're saying. Poor people have too much.

Please reference.

Such comments give me the impression you have no rebuttal, you are simply making snide remarks. This means you are neither here with an open mind to take in the opinions of others, nor ate you here to present a argument to convert others.

This implies that, in Internet terms - you be troll'n.

[1 88 U]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Nothing makes people spend their money better than not having enough.
.

Do you read what you type. This statement implies the poor have it too good which is completely untrue.

[Daniel.]

This is great guys, but what is everyone in here REALLY doing to help America/Society?

[MadScientist]

Posting in a public forum hoping someone with significance will read it through and actually do something about it while I continue to stuff my face with Big Macs and Starbucks while searching internet porn on my nifty new i5.... duh...

[Daniel.]

Awesome. Carry on then! BigMacs are the real key to making America great after all.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by 1 88 U

Do you read what you type. This statement implies the poor have it too good which is completely untrue.

That was a reference to government spending so that you can relate to your own fiscal experiences.

More over, even you are literally thinking I'm saying take money away from poor people so they don't waste it on cigarettes and booze.... there is still no conceivable way to interpret that as "the poor have it good".

[TheWolf]

Originally Posted by ineedone

So slavery was good? Right... sounds like you grew up in the David Duke school of hating blacks. Cool story bro... I am sure that will work out great for you.

Look at you. Get all huffy and play the race card right out of the box. No I said back then it was good. If you want to sit down and judge how a president did, like the articles you site, you must judge them with what they had, and the values of the time period they were in.

"X guy was the worst president ever because slavery expanded the most under him" is only a valid argument if you feel that slavery is the worst thing to have ever happened in US history. "X guy was the worst president ever because he killed more indians than anyone else" is also just as valid.

You still need to make him worse than Nixon... I mean if slavery is not going to sway you I doubt you have the mental capacity to deal with how terrible Nixon was.

Nixon was pretty bad. No one is arguing that point. Carter was just as bad in my opinion. Nixon at least never told anyone turn your heat off and put on a sweater for the good of the country. Basic services and basic financial services. He took a poor situation and made it worse. Nixon atleast got people out of vietnam.

Well sure there is the poor... but you are forgetting the working poor, the elderly, families making less than 60k, families making 100k with kids or a farm etc, the military, oh yeah and the top 1%. All of these groups generally pay no federal income tax. The one thing you do forget to add in your argument is payroll taxes, but hey I guess those are not real.

See. Federal programs are paid with federal monies. Many state programs are backed with federal monies. When 47% of the country does not pay any federal income taxes. That's a problem.

If you take the nations payouts, to protect each man, woman and child, and all the social programs, education, highways, etc. It is approximately $17,000 per family member. The only problem is 47% of the country is paying nothing and that tiny bit at the end, is paying for a whole lot.

I can't believe you want to bring payroll taxes into this. It's the one thing the rich pay more of than anyone and rarely get anything back. He contributed the max into the system longer than most. Again he's a bad guy.

So working poor or non working poor. Still want $17k in services, still chip in ZERO.
That zero is important in that, people talk a big game, people debate how rich should pay more. It's for the betterment of society. In reality, it's so they can continue to pay nothing. They want to tax someone elses income, take someone elses money, take someone elses production and utilize that to make their lives "better". What is better? 2 tv's instead of one? an extra car? a computer? The poor are the richest they've ever been over the past 25 years in terms of possessions.

The whole point of living in a civilized society is that you sort of have to accept some level of a social pact that requires those that make more help continue to improve the situations of those who make less. That is everything from roads, to schools, to basic social services like food stamps so that some people can barely get by without dying of starvation in the streets.

No one is dying of starvation on the streets. Sorry to burst your bubble. In fact quite the opposite is happening. Children in households receiving foodstamps are the largest ballooning segment of the population that is suffering with childhood obesity. Now this social contract also only works one way. It's for me to take responsibility for the poor around me. Not for the poor to ever take responsibility for themselves or for me. If there's no food on your table tonight, the fault of that solely rests on your shoulders. This is america. there's more opportunity here than anywhere else.

I am not sure how saying rich people pay more makes your point at all. You are essentially making the case for progressive taxation. Because as you rightly state, 10% for a millionaire has no where near the same hit as 10% for someone making minimum wage would. I am not sure how taxing people who can barely afford to live into oblivion will help anything... The government could raise $700 billion by either taking half of everything earned by the bottom 50% or by raising the marginal tax rate on the top two percent. What makes more sense?

"What makes more sense" should be rephrased to "What polls better for my election campaign". I'm not saying taxing everything they own into oblivion but someone who makes 20k a year can afford $100 a month in taxes. The rich are tired of everyone paying nothing and them being the beasts of burden. Take responsibility for your own life, contribute to society as well. Not going to do it all ourselves.

wow... who fights your wars? who are your police? fireman? EMTs? who works for your multi-billion dollar companies? you know what happens when you stomp out the working class, you get no workers. Again... GREAAAAT Idea... lets go back to slavery!

Just because someone chooses a profession that does not pay well does not mean they are lesser of a person. Does not mean that just because they have spent every dollar they make that they have no liability to contribute towards society.

What are you talking about? So the only reason everyone is not a millionaire is because they are lazy? Hmmm...

Yes. That's what I'm saying. If you want to make a million dollars this year, you're not going to do it sitting around. You're not going to do it by making 15/hr and you're not going to do it by setting a financial goal of the year for 45k. Many people just want to exist, pay their bills, and enjoy their lives. There's nothing wrong with that. No one makes a million dollars this year by accident unless winning the lotto.
When we sit down at the beginning of the year and size up our financial targets, we decide how much we want to make this year. how hard we want to work and go at it. No one else does that for us and if we get there, we do it by hard work, planning, perseverance, and investments. We don't get there by complaining that the other guy has more chips than us and we need some. We don't by saying if the super rich would only just give us a hundred grand, we'd be there. That's the logic of the poor though. Give us more, it will help us out. All evidence points to the contrary. People worked harder when they were hungry. Crime was down and more got done.

Last time I checked you are on zilvia too. I would have to assume that you are not rolling in the dough. So... welcome to the moocher class you lazy racist welfare queen!

My personal tax liabilities will be aprox 11k in january. That's income and personal property tax. My families will be in the 60-70k. Total my family, with me as the one kid, will pay 17k into 3 counties of public school systems. I personally will never send my children to public school and I never went to public school. With this ridiculous level of funding they receive, they have pretty much made a high school diploma useless.

The fact is, when we sit down in january, set our revenue goals, we include spending large sums of money just in taxes. Property taxes alone can sap weeks worth of profit. That's just money flushed down a rat hole. If we don't sit down and figure out how to pay our taxes though, no one will and in the end, they'll come and take our warehouses, and buildings, and cars all at gunpoint all to service the "needs of the poor". It costs us $20 a day to put the key in the door at one business just in property taxes. People like you will flounder, play the race card, call us lazy welfare queens, but what you won't do is get out there and make large sums of money and contribute. Again. We must be the assholes.

[MadScientist]

pretty much made a high school diploma useless

HHAHAHA... I am in college and let me tell you, a Bachelor Degree is nearly worthless. Masters is the new BS!!

[gbaby2089]

Originally Posted by K_style

1.What is both parties philosophy? beliefs? and supports?
- I found it and read it about both parties but I would like to hear from forum members what their thoughts are.

2. Have you watched 2016: Obama's America? what are your thought?

Call it dumb question or whatever you want. I only been in state for 8+ years and never found my self and political interested person before until now.

1.) The parties do not have set party beliefs. Generally the Democrats are in favour of federal gov't spending for social aide, higher taxes rather than cutting programs, regulations on economics, less social limitations

The republicans tend to favour military spending, lower taxes, following a White Christian moral code, etc.

The Republicans shift ever more conservate with each passing day. Richard Nixon would likely be considered a democrat (if based solely on his views) today.

[LEG1T]

Originally Posted by gbaby2089

1.) The parties do not have set party beliefs. Generally the Democrats are in favour of federal gov't spending for social aide, higher taxes rather than cutting programs, regulations on economics, less social limitations

The republicans tend to favour military spending, lower taxes, following a White Christian moral code, etc.

The Republicans shift ever more conservate with each passing day. Richard Nixon would likely be considered a democrat (if based solely on his views) today.

Did you really just say that?"lower taxes"

[Phlip]

Originally Posted by LEG1T

Did you really just say that?"lower taxes"

He said what they FAVOUR, not what actually winds up happening

[LEG1T]

Originally Posted by Phlip

He said what they FAVOUR, not what actually winds up happening

Truth, cause the opposite winds up happening.

[gbaby2089]

Originally Posted by LEG1T

Did you really just say that?"lower taxes"

Originally Posted by Phlip

He said what they FAVOUR, not what actually winds up happening

Originally Posted by LEG1T

Truth, cause the opposite winds up happening.

I know that completely. Philip got it. All the things are simply hopes and dreams, none of those things get done in our flawed system.