High HP SR Spark Blowout....Discussion/Solutions

[jspaeth]

Disclaimer: After about 5 weeks of troubleshooting, the LAST thing I did was to try to back-probe all of the ground wires going into the ECU to check for continuity with ground.....all of them checked out just fine.

However, after doing this, the issue was resolved.....it must have ultimately been an ever-so-loose ground-wire pin into the ECU that was causing intermittant contact, or something, because immediately after doing that, the issue went away and never came back


Continue reading if you are having the same symptoms....there is a good deal of discussion in this thread, and maybe you can see the long list of things I checked in the process and find something you forgot.


9/26/2010


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I was wondering if we could get a discussion going about what types of power your car has and what types of plugs/gaps you run to prevent blowout of spark.


My car used to have 330 whp and never blew out spark with 17 psi on a GT2871R.

Now, I am up around 370-380 or so.....running around 19-20 psi.


In the winter, I was fine, but now that it is warm out, if I floor it, it hits 20 psi and starts to sputter and die around 600-6500 RPM in the higher gears (3rd and 4th).

I am running BCPR7ES-11 (I think that is right)....they are coppers, gapped to 0.028

I am also running stock coilpacks with new amplification device or anything, just stock ignition setup.


Is anyone else with such a setup on an SR seeing blowout issues (seems to have come on when it got hot out)?

What gaps are you guys running to avoid blowout, or what types of ignition modifications?

I'd like to hear what works and what doesn't work for specific setups.


I don't want this to be people just giving answers.....only post if you have first hand experience with a specific setup.

NO IT IS NOT KNOCKING....I HAVE A STANDALONE, TIMING IS NOT BEING PULLED, ETC ETC.....

[j87w]

Are you sure your not knocking and its pulling ignition timing to compensate? It could be as you say it happens under.a good load (3rd gear and up) and when the air temp is warm.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by j87w

Are you sure your not knocking and its pulling ignition timing to compensate? It could be as you say it happens under.a good load (3rd gear and up) and when the air temp is warm.

Wow. You must not read very well. I SPECIFICALLY said please don't post unless you can tell me about your specific setup and what you are running as far as ignition. I know what it is going on with my car.

I am running a standalone fyi, there is no "pulling timing", and I have a WORKING knock sensor.......NO it is not knocking, it is blowing out spark.


PLEASE DON'T POST QUESTIONS.

Post what ignition setup you are running on a high hp SR setup and how you prevent blowout.

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

Wow. You must not read very well. I SPECIFICALLY said please don't post unless you can tell me about your specific setup and what you are running as far as ignition. I know what it is going on with my car.

I am running a standalone fyi, there is no "pulling timing", and I have a WORKING knock sensor.......NO it is not knocking, it is blowing out spark.


PLEASE DON'T POST QUESTIONS.

Post what ignition setup you are running on a high hp SR setup and how you prevent blowout.

I have experienced it in my 340ish whp 240

I have a gt2872r .64 a/r
740cc nismo injectors and as you know a apexi power fc
I am not familiar with BCP NGK plugs I run BKR7e-11 which I regap to around .028. At 18.5 lbs that works best. I run NGK BKR7e or 7e-11 plugs and have factory coil packs. I also change my plugs every 3 oil changes or around 10 thousand miles since they are cheap like a 1.50 a plug. When I ran the 11s gaped to .044 they would blow out like crazy in high boost since I have switched or regaped them to .028. I have no problems. Hope this helps.

[slider2828]

I thnk 7's are one step too hot... In accordance and my experience 8's are perfect same is said on Phase2motortrends site when ordering plugs

I am runing built 86mm block, HKS 264/264 step 1, bc head stuff, 2871R .86 ar running dyno'ed and dailyed on 17.5 psi making 330WHP on a Dynodynamics so shoudl be close to 380 and I get about 310lbs of torque on the DD. I use BKR8EIX, which are the iridiums. Gap also at .028... Stock coilpacks as well with a Sun Auto GT Power Thingy....

I never get sputter on the track or daily... you can easily tell heat range issues. The grounding strap which is the thing that looks like a hook over the eletrode, that is the part you can tell the range. If its too hot the strap is all white, the whiteness should only reach the bent of the strap.... Done.... Never had problems....

Also in terms of negative setups. I relocated to full size battery to the rear. 2 gauge monster cable front terminals to back. 2 gauge battery ground o chassis. All grounds in the front lead to one point on the chassis, with homemade grounding kit, head, block, intake manifold, strap grounding point for coilpacks. Also Smaller ground leads (16,14,or 12awg) such as ignitor grounds is distributed to a grounding block then linked to a single point with 8awg grounds to where my other grounds are. Better the grounds the better the spark....

[fliprayzin240sx]

Thats what I was gonna say, a good rule of thumb is for every 100hp above stock, you go down another heat range with NGKs. Stocks are 6s at stock 180 whp ish. You are way more than double that, I'd go down to 8s and gap them down to .030. If its blowing out, start tapping them down closer to .025 if need be. I've got a guy out here thats been building SRs for over 20 years. He said from his personal experience, stock OEM coilpacks/igniters can handle up to 600hp with no issue. No point of upgrading coilpacks.

On my GT3582 at 1.8bar, I'm still running stock S15 coilpacks with NGK Irway Iridiums 9s. Already came pregapped at .030 so I never touch them. Only fucking catch is they cost like $25 a pop out here with the shitty exchange rate. Will probably order some copper plugs and see if they work just as good. Figured if coppers work, I'll just change them more often like I used to do in the states (roughly every other oil change but they only freakin cost 1.25 per plugs).

[Z U L8R]

i used to run bcpr7es @ .028 in everything, then i switched to #4644 BKR7E @ .028 because they're V-attackPower

never had a problem with those at 22psi 440hp/380tq running wasted spark buick gnx coil on my rb25

however for my 6-800hp e85 2j build i may go 8 or 9 heat range

Dave

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by slider2828

I thnk 7's are one step too hot... In accordance and my experience 8's are perfect same is said on Phase2motortrends site when ordering plugs

I am runing built 86mm block, HKS 264/264 step 1, bc head stuff, 2871R .86 ar running dyno'ed and dailyed on 17.5 psi making 330WHP on a Dynodynamics so shoudl be close to 380 and I get about 310lbs of torque on the DD. I use BKR8EIX, which are the iridiums. Gap also at .028... Stock coilpacks as well with a Sun Auto GT Power Thingy....

I never get sputter on the track or daily... you can easily tell heat range issues. The grounding strap which is the thing that looks like a hook over the eletrode, that is the part you can tell the range. If its too hot the strap is all white, the whiteness should only reach the bent of the strap.... Done.... Never had problems....

Also in terms of negative setups. I relocated to full size battery to the rear. 2 gauge monster cable front terminals to back. 2 gauge battery ground o chassis. All grounds in the front lead to one point on the chassis, with homemade grounding kit, head, block, intake manifold, strap grounding point for coilpacks. Also Smaller ground leads (16,14,or 12awg) such as ignitor grounds is distributed to a grounding block then linked to a single point with 8awg grounds to where my other grounds are. Better the grounds the better the spark....

Originally Posted by fliprayzin240sx

Thats what I was gonna say, a good rule of thumb is for every 100hp above stock, you go down another heat range with NGKs. Stocks are 6s at stock 180 whp ish. You are way more than double that, I'd go down to 8s and gap them down to .030. If its blowing out, start tapping them down closer to .025 if need be. I've got a guy out here thats been building SRs for over 20 years. He said from his personal experience, stock OEM coilpacks/igniters can handle up to 600hp with no issue. No point of upgrading coilpacks.

On my GT3582 at 1.8bar, I'm still running stock S15 coilpacks with NGK Irway Iridiums 9s. Already came pregapped at .030 so I never touch them. Only fucking catch is they cost like $25 a pop out here with the shitty exchange rate. Will probably order some copper plugs and see if they work just as good. Figured if coppers work, I'll just change them more often like I used to do in the states (roughly every other oil change but they only freakin cost 1.25 per plugs).

Could either of you fellas give me a part number or stock number?

I am looking for heat-range 8 copper plugs with the correct thread pitch yadda yadda yadda....

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.....will give it a shot and check grounds and shit.

[whitey240]

I have 490 whp, AEM Coils, Stock Ignitor. I am running with NGK BKR8EIX Plugs gapped at .028. No issues with blow out when revving to 8200.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by whitey240

I have 490 whp, AEM Coils, Stock Ignitor. I am running with NGK BKR8EIX Plugs gapped at .028. No issues with blow out when revving to 8200.

Thank you.

I just spent the past 2 hours researching NGK spark plugs.

It looks like all of the V-power ones I can find that are applicable are bkr7e and bkr8e.

However, both of these are ISO length, not JIS length, and I have found some people have said that they experience poor contact between coilpack and top of spark plug due to this length difference.


Right now, I am using BCPR7ES, and want to upgrade to BCPR8ES, but they no longer make these!

A close alternative would be:


BPR8ES



However, this plug has a 13/16" hex, rather than the usual 5/8".


Does anyone know if this will fit down itno the plug hole? Or is the hex area too big and it won't fit down there?



Damnit I want to run 8s, but there aren't any that are compatible except for Iridiums or Platinums, which are $$$

[j87w]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

Wow. You must not read very well. I SPECIFICALLY said please don't post unless you can tell me about your specific setup and what you are running as far as ignition. I know what it is going on with my car.

I am running a standalone fyi, there is no "pulling timing", and I have a WORKING knock sensor.......NO it is not knocking, it is blowing out spark.


PLEASE DON'T POST QUESTIONS.

Post what ignition setup you are running on a high hp SR setup and how you prevent blowout.

I can tell.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by j87w

I can tell.

Huh? I guess you are trying to be sarcastic.

It is not knocking. I have a wideband, AFR gauge, standalone, I can see timing, etc etc.

There is no pulling timing due to knocking with my setup, and I knew that ahead of time.

I simply want to know what ignition/sparkplug setups people with hp/turbo setups similar to mine people are running.

[VQMaxFan]

I don't think a 13/16 socket would fit in our spark plug wells

[4x4le]

I asked hemicharger about this and he said you should try shell v-power gas and its nitrogen enriched formula will clean your valves and reduce blowout, its on the commercial.

(thats an inside joke so no hate)


Anyways, My setup isnt going to help you but I run copper bkr6e gapped at .028 and have the splitfire ignition. 7s didnt seem hot ENOUGH on e85 but back when I was on gas they did seem too hot. I dont know how much the splitfire ignition comes into play with helping blowout but it has made it so I can start the car in the winter....

Like I said, my setup isnt going to help YOU but I wanted to make a v-power reference

[rb25_s13*CHUKI]

well on My evo 8 I ran a bkr7 Ngk plug, Gapped them at .24 as my tuner suggested running a GT3076R @ 30 Psi on 101 octane. Idk IF that will help you out at all. Try gapping the plugs at 24.

[fliprayzin240sx]

NGK 8/9/10s

NGK Spark Plugs 4554 - NGK Racing Spark Plugs - Overview - SummitRacing.com

NGK Spark Plugs 5238 - NGK Racing Spark Plugs - Overview - SummitRacing.com

NGK Spark Plugs 5820 - NGK Racing Spark Plugs - Overview - SummitRacing.com

[steve shadows]

are you sure that's your issue?

And not that you're overly rich?

The feeling in the car feels almost the same as spark being blown out. Most fuel maps are designed on base correction to add additional fuel for additonal levels of heat. Could be just big rich

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by steve shadows

are you sure that's your issue?

And not that you're overly rich?

The feeling in the car feels almost the same as spark being blown out. Most fuel maps are designed on base correction to add additional fuel for additonal levels of heat. Could be just big rich

Steve, I think this is a contributing factor, definitely....

From 5000 RPM--->redline and probably 16 psi and up, that whole section of the map is retardedly rich....I am talking like mid 9's probably.

It's like that bc when my car was tuned, boost started falling off after 5K dramatically (turns out there was a slice in an IC coupler) so he added tons of fuel there in case I overboosted someday in the future.

I am gonna play with my fuel map and pull some fuel in that region to make it more reasonable.

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That being said, something is totally fubarred with my ignition, and I haven't done a thing to touch it or mess it up.

I even put the car on WG boost (like 10 psi) and tried to pull to redline in 3rd gear, and it just stops pulling around 5500 RPM or so.

This is nowhere near enough power to be blowing out spark....I may trying moving my head--->chassis ground to a better location than where it currently is.


This just sucks, bc I have been running the car on 19 psi, tapering down starting at 6000 RPM down to about 16 psi at redline (boost leak, as mentioned), and for 9 months, the car was pulling fine, no hesitation, no problems.

Now, even on 10 psi, it stops pulling at like 5500 RPM.

Gonna do a compression test, even though I am sure it is fine. No coolant missing, no smoke of any kind, oil and coolant were fine last time I checked....haven't touched timing, CAS, or ANYTHING.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by fliprayzin240sx

NGK 8/9/10s

NGK Spark Plugs 4554 - NGK Racing Spark Plugs - Overview - SummitRacing.com

NGK Spark Plugs 5238 - NGK Racing Spark Plugs - Overview - SummitRacing.com

NGK Spark Plugs 5820 - NGK Racing Spark Plugs - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Steve, maybe you and Ray can discuss this.

These plugs are "racing plugs", i.e. they are NOT resistor-type plugs.


I have read that these can potentially cause interference with the ECU or other electronics (don't care about the radio or whatever):

http://www.hondata.com/techksparkplugs.html


Others say they have had no issues, and some say they cause interference....care to discuss?

[Norty]

Just something to think ab. You might be on to something with the whole rich thing b/c most of the time people experience blow out when the weather starts getting colder not vice versa. You kno cause you get more air/boost when it gets colder. Just something to think ab.

[Technology]

I don't know too much about 240's but I use bpr8es plugs in my conquest gapped to .25. I use e85 fuel, 22psi and about 390whp. My tuner was saying he's tuned some evos with a .09 plug gap, but they are very high boost e85/e98 cars. Also, I was using a stock DSM coil pack and had a very noticable power drop at higher rpm. We switched to another one and the power was back up to where it should have been. With the weaker coilpack, the tuner had increased timing to compensate and after switching, we saw knock and had to pull some timing, but power wasn't affected.

[steve shadows]

Make absolutely sure that your Coil Pack harness is grounded, then grounded and then grounded again. Also make sure your coil packs arent dead.

If your ecu burn out an ignition driver....or one of the pins for one of the Coil Pack signals is messed up this can happen too...

Happened to me in one of the most important races of my S13's life, when I was racing a highly tuned S15 on the FWY, still hung with Paul's car but the ignition kept cutting out hard every 5500=6500 rpms

[rb25_s13*CHUKI]

Originally Posted by steve shadows

Make absolutely sure that your Coil Pack harness is grounded, then grounded and then grounded again. Also make sure your coil packs arent dead.

If your ecu burn out an ignition driver....or one of the pins for one of the Coil Pack signals is messed up this can happen too...

Happened to me in one of the most important races of my S13's life, when I was racing a highly tuned S15 on the FWY, still hung with Paul's car but the ignition kept cutting out hard every 5500=6500 rpms

Was It a grey S15? with 17x10 work vsx?

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by steve shadows

Make absolutely sure that your Coil Pack harness is grounded, then grounded and then grounded again. Also make sure your coil packs arent dead.

If your ecu burn out an ignition driver....or one of the pins for one of the Coil Pack signals is messed up this can happen too...

Happened to me in one of the most important races of my S13's life, when I was racing a highly tuned S15 on the FWY, still hung with Paul's car but the ignition kept cutting out hard every 5500=6500 rpms

Yesterday I doubled checked this....coilpack harness is grounded to the back of the head as it should be. Head is grounded to the firewall...I cleaned up the head--->firewall connection by sanding down the firewall to the metal.


Coilpacks have always been okay, spark first blew out a couple weeks ago....I just figured it was hot out and need to gap them down a bit.


However, now I can't even pull to redline at 10 psi even....just not sparking.


Gonna change oil soon and double check coolant, but I am 99% sure headgasket is fine...

Also, the map in the 10 psi region should NOT be so rich as to cause this, as I have previously driven the car under 10 psi with no problems 100s of times.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by Technology

I don't know too much about 240's but I use bpr8es plugs in my conquest gapped to .25. I use e85 fuel, 22psi and about 390whp. My tuner was saying he's tuned some evos with a .09 plug gap, but they are very high boost e85/e98 cars. Also, I was using a stock DSM coil pack and had a very noticable power drop at higher rpm. We switched to another one and the power was back up to where it should have been. With the weaker coilpack, the tuner had increased timing to compensate and after switching, we saw knock and had to pull some timing, but power wasn't affected.

I really want to use BCPR8ES, but they don't make them anymore.

BPR8ES has a 13/16" hex portion, too wide for an SR well I believe.

Plugs show that they are sufficiently cold, so 8s are probably overkill anyway and will foul too much for a lot of the local driving I do

[jamanrr]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

I really want to use BCPR8ES, but they don't make them anymore.

BPR8ES has a 13/16" hex portion, too wide for an SR well I believe.

Plugs show that they are sufficiently cold, so 8s are probably overkill anyway and will foul too much for a lot of the local driving I do

one thing that might be simple and you should double check is the fuel cut and rpm it is set at?

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by jamanrr

one thing that might be simple and you should double check is the fuel cut and rpm it is set at?

Thanks for the suggestion...however, I have a standalone, and I know where these are set to (7800 RPM).

I have hit fuel cut many times before and know what that feels like.


This doesn't feel like sputtering like that does.

This feels like the car just stops pulling, but doesn't make any sputtering noises like fuel cut.

[slow92]

I know I already posted this in your other thread but I will do it again. I made 400whp and used bkr7e (I lived in Savannah so it is hot there) gapped to 0.028 and my car started breaking up in the higher rpm range just like yours. So I took it back to my tuner so he could put it on the dyno and try to figure out what was wrong. It felt like fuel cut but then would power through it and pull to redline. After 30 minutes we figured out it was the ignition. We checked each coilpack with a diode tester and they were all firing and at about the same speed. I couldn't borrow someone elses coilpacks to figure out which one it was so I upgraded to ls1 coilpacks. I know you can't do this because you are using a power fc, but once I switched over the car pulled like no other.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by slow92

I know I already posted this in your other thread but I will do it again. I made 400whp and used bkr7e (I lived in Savannah so it is hot there) gapped to 0.028 and my car started breaking up in the higher rpm range just like yours. So I took it back to my tuner so he could put it on the dyno and try to figure out what was wrong. It felt like fuel cut but then would power through it and pull to redline. After 30 minutes we figured out it was the ignition. We checked each coilpack with a diode tester and they were all firing and at about the same speed. I couldn't borrow someone elses coilpacks to figure out which one it was so I upgraded to ls1 coilpacks. I know you can't do this because you are using a power fc, but once I switched over the car pulled like no other.

I am gonna throw in some new plugs soon and see what works.

Grounds are better now than they were before, when it was working. Going to check my igniter chip too.....again I believe it is probably fine because it always worked before and all cylinder fire fine except for under boost.

I think 5000 RPM+ is okay under light load, no misfires....just high load.

This leads me to believe it is weak ignition/blowout/fucked up plugs.

[jamanrr]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

I am gonna throw in some new plugs soon and see what works.

Grounds are better now than they were before, when it was working. Going to check my igniter chip too.....again I believe it is probably fine because it always worked before and all cylinder fire fine except for under boost.

I think 5000 RPM+ is okay under light load, no misfires....just high load.

This leads me to believe it is weak ignition/blowout/fucked up plugs.

put some BKR V Powers in there then report back ?