Team Zimmerman Vs Team Martin?

[TougeLove]

I still dont understand why this is a big deal.

3 kids under the age of 10 were shot in chicago in one weekend while i was there.

The media/government is making this bigger than it is all while I'm sure they are doing something or a story is being swept under the news rug.

but you sheep play into this and thats what make you predictable and when you're predictable, you're controllable.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by TougeLove

I still dont understand why this is a big deal.

3 kids under the age of 10 were shot in chicago in one weekend while i was there.

But they were shot by black people... we've come to expect that.

[drftngs14]

Originally Posted by TougeLove

but you sheep play into this and thats what make you predictable and when you're predictable, you're controllable.

My thoughts exactly!!! SHEEEEEEP! Profiling is part of our lives and part of security and being a police officer, hell it was TAUGHT in my CJ classes in college. We are profiled everyday we get behind the wheel of our "imports", dont want to be profiled like that, dont drive it. Dont want to be profiled as a potential threat dont dress like the ones that are! Really no sense in anyone arguing on this worthless, time and money consuming case.. Tons more issues we should be debating than another kid being shot and killed, happens everyday...

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by bc.

The 'kid' did see the gun, and when he saw it he said. "you gonna die tonight" and tried to grab it from GZ.

Only a real asshole would sucker punch a neighborhood watch man in the face causing him a broken nose and then jump on him when he fell to the ground and continue pummeling him there.

In fairness, the only person who says that happened is the one who is alive. If you were to accept Zimmerman claim that Martin was on top - it would have been nearly impossible for him to reach under Zimmerman's body to grab a gun that was holstered in his pants on his backside (again that is what Zimmerman told the cops in his initial interview - as an aside to that, in those situations people always have a terrible time of really remember what exactly was happening and/or said because of the stress of the situation).

Originally Posted by bc.

So you agree TM was on top in a 'ground and pound' position (as corroborated by witnesses) and you think GZ instantly goes into a coma? Have you ever seen a MMA fight? Those guys don't instantly go into a coma when getting 'ground n pounded' they get fucked up though.

btw, when laying on your back with a bloody noose, the blood can run back up your nasal cavity and into your throat, very much 'drowning' you.

TM had been training in MMA, not sure if you got him confused with GZ...

One witness said that he believes he saw Zimmerman on the bottom. However, lets accept that he was mounted. Zimmerman claims that he felt in fear of his life because his head was being bashed against the concrete - that is what would put someone in a coma, not getting punched in the face (which by his injuries looks like one punch). I fought semi-professionally in a few organizations in PA and VA a few years back - getting mounted and punched sucks but its certainly not life threatening. I bring this up because the legal standard for a self defense claim (not SYG) is that one must be in a reasonable belief his life is in imminent danger or suffer sever bodily harm. Zimmerman was training in MMA - for over a year I believe (they had his coach/owner of the gym testify). Therefore, how could someone who had been training really be in that sort of belief? I just find that skeptical. I did not see any evidence that Martin had been training - I did see that he had been in school fights. I thought the prosecutors missed a huge point here. If this kid was so dangerous as to put a grown man, who trains into a reasonable belief that his life was in danger, then why did all these kids he fought in school or whatever do so well against him? He lost fights if I remember. I just raise that point to reiterate that if you are a semi trained fighter - getting a bloody nose and a knock on the head is common - it sucks and it hurts - but it is certainly not life threatening.

Originally Posted by bc.

You were not there, so what you "believe happened" has nothing to do with anything, especially if it is contradictory to the evidence presented in the case. shit, a forensics expert on gsw testified that the way the bullet passed thru the shirt and entered TM proves he was on top of GZ when shot.

GZ had said HE was confronted by TM when he was on his way back to his vehicle, not the other way around, and after he told his story to the police, the police lied to him and said we got the whole thing on CCTV. Do you know what GZ said? He said "thank God" Not the reaction of someone who lied to the police...

You have to remember that when it comes to experts - a well funded defense team can get an expert to testify to whatever best suits their case. The prosecution does not have that luxury (hence why the prosecution GSW witness was awful and combative v. defense who was a absolute beauty of a witness). The prosecution also had a theory that both men were standing when Martin was shot - again, they have to use the witnesses and experts that they have, they do not have the luxury of using a large budget to recreate the story in a believable manner that fits your narrative. Only one person alive knows exactly what happened and he did not take the stand and testify to that - a smart move for any defendant in these types of cases.

Originally Posted by bc.

Florida law.... this case had nothing to do with 'Florida Law' it is a USA law called SELF DEFENSE. It has nothing to do with any other laws, it was not a SYG case, that law is irrelevant to these matters. GZ shot once, probably with no intent to kill anyone.

I am not gonna pretend to know how that works, it's tricky. how young is someone trying to kill you supposed to be before you can't fight back?? Not sure, but certainly you wont have time to check their I.D.

No, when it comes to homicide it is a state issue. Therefore, state law applies. For example, Florida laws on murder/self defense can be a lot different than New York. There does exist a "model" code but every state generally has its own intricacies (hence why you take a State Bar exam as well as the Multi State bar exam when becoming an attorney).

The intent issue is interesting as well. It would be required for the 2nd degree murder charge but not the Manslaughter or the 3rd degree felony charge. Like I alluded to before - I saw this as an imperfect self defense case which means that he used more force then was reasonably allowed.

Stand your ground was important to this case when it came to the initial investigation. In most states - when someone is shot, the shooter is arrested and the case is investigated as a homicide. That is a good thing. We want to investigate those things to make sure that the only person who is saying what happened is telling the truth. With SYG - the police can make a prejudicial decision that someone is innocent. I just think that is completely unfair and impairs the judicial process. I know there are tons of other arguments against SYG - but for this conversation I am sticking to purely procedural issues that it creates for a prosecution.

As far as how young your victim is - think of it like this, you sleep with a girl who says she is 18 but in reality shes 15. That is statutory rape, no matter what you say, you lose. You get the victim that is presented to you, you do not have to know their age so if you kill them and they are under a certain age it does not matter whether you knew that or not. 17 seems to close to being considered an adult... but Florida is absolutely nuts so you never know.

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by AFSil80

^^^ How about the link I posted towards the top of the page? Kinda counteracts your claims of him being a racist, just sayin.

I never said Zimmerman was a racist. Just that his pursuit of Martin was because Martin was black.

[drftngs14]

Whats your point, so what he profiled??? You've never profiled anyone or anything based on your perception at the time?

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by drftngs14

Whats your point, so what he profiled??? You've never profiled anyone or anything based on your perception at the time?

Sure, but I do not follow those people and inevitably shoot them. What I am trying to distinguish is the difference between being a "racist" and committing a crime that violates someones civil rights because of their "race." Subtle, but important.

[drftngs14]

I must not understand civil rights.. cause GZ followed and approached TM with in my opinion no intention of shooting or even fighting him, but simply doing his job as a security guard. Whether he followed him just cause he's black doesn't violate any rights, cops can follow a "suspicious vehicle" and inevitably pull them over for being nothing but "suspicious". What happens from that point is whats in question which I cant argue, but following cause he's black doesnt violate any rights

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by drftngs14

I must not understand civil rights.. cause GZ followed and approached TM with in my opinion no intention of shooting or even fighting him, but simply doing his job as a security guard. Whether he followed him just cause he's black doesn't violate any rights, cops can follow a "suspicious vehicle" and inevitably pull them over for being nothing but "suspicious". What happens from that point is whats in question which I cant argue, but following cause he's black doesnt violate any rights

Well, I am no expert on civil rights litigation and from what I have heard from some friends - it is highly unlikely that this case raises to the level needed to bring a case at the federal level.

But, to kind of explain it - Zimmerman was not a law enforcement official. Therefore, he has no right to act under the color of the state (acting like a police officer). His only right would be to call the police, maybe follow, and maybe even ask him what he was doing.

So, the theory of those who want the case is that the only reason Martin was followed was because he was black (not that Zimmerman was really out there to shoot the first black kid he saw). That is why it is unlikely to happen - all of the cases I have seen are when it is blatantly obvious that the person was murdered based on race (dropping N bombs and overkill are the big ones). The important part of the statute is this "to any person, because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, or national origin of any person." So, in theory you do not have to be a racist to commit a race based hate crime. 18 USC § 249 - Hate crime acts | Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute

You have a civil right to walk around, walk home and not be confronted and shot. So, if the only reason he was followed/stalked and eventually shot was because he was black, then you have a violation of his basic civil rights. You also have to consider that Martin had not broke any laws and, arguably, had every right to "stand his ground" or "defend" himself against a person he feared was following/stalking him.

[drftngs14]

Ok so at least we are both not experts here hahah! But as a security he does have a duty to do his job which "maybe follow" and call the police, from what Ive seen this is what he did. In addition asking TM what he was doing, where any one of us would probably say going home fuck off, but I dont think thats what TM did. At some point, people have to take responsibility for putting themselves in situations.. Not saying its his fault but he could have said going home and kept walking and then this wouldnt even be a topic of discussion. I HIGHLY doubt this will bring a civil suit, if it does we'll get another circus for a year...

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by drftngs14

Ok so at least we are both not experts here hahah! But as a security he does have a duty to do his job which "maybe follow" and call the police, from what Ive seen this is what he did. In addition asking TM what he was doing, where any one of us would probably say going home fuck off, but I dont think thats what TM did. At some point, people have to take responsibility for putting themselves in situations.. Not saying its his fault but he could have said going home and kept walking and then this wouldnt even be a topic of discussion. I HIGHLY doubt this will bring a civil suit, if it does we'll get another circus for a year...

Volunteer neighborhood watch is not security. I would have liked the actual police to investigate it as a murder when it first happened. We would have had a lot more evidence to show the truth one way or another (and it would not have been a national story). Remember the reason so many people got into this was that it took 40+ days and protest just for a basic arrest.

As for a civil suit - it is more likely than not. The standard to win the civil suit is much lower. Remember the O.J. Simpson case where he was acquitted but lost a huge civil suit. This could end up the same way. Just depends on the Martin family willingness to keep living through this to win a meaningless sum of money and a decision in their favor.

I also think the city of Sanford will be sued civilly. They fired their Chief of Police over this incident which is a pretty big admission of guilt.

The federal civil rights case would be another criminal trial, not a civil suit if that is what you meant.

[Te37]

Originally Posted by TheWolf

Facts.
Zimmerman disobeyed a 911 operator and pursued Martin.

There is no law that you have to obey a 911 operator order. So it is not disobeying.

[silviaks2nr]

ineedone, what do you make of this? A group of 13/14 year old black kids beat a white man almost to death, and now he's dead 9 months later. To say there's a double standard is an understatement. Only whites can profile, infringe upon another's civil rights, and be racist.

Cincinnati man who was badly beat by 'bored' teens dies

There's really something wrong with America's youth in poor urban areas and something needs to be done about THAT before "civil rights" and "racism" are made into social issues.

Originally Posted by ineedone

Volunteer neighborhood watch is not security. I would have liked the actual police to investigate it as a murder when it first happened. We would have had a lot more evidence to show the truth one way or another (and it would not have been a national story). Remember the reason so many people got into this was that it took 40+ days and protest just for a basic arrest.

As for a civil suit - it is more likely than not. The standard to win the civil suit is much lower. Remember the O.J. Simpson case where he was acquitted but lost a huge civil suit. This could end up the same way. Just depends on the Martin family willingness to keep living through this to win a meaningless sum of money and a decision in their favor.

I also think the city of Sanford will be sued civilly. They fired their Chief of Police over this incident which is a pretty big admission of guilt.

The federal civil rights case would be another criminal trial, not a civil suit if that is what you meant.

The police saw no reason to investigate a murder because there was little evidence to support it was anything other than an act of self defense. The district attorney and prosecution were bullied by the media and the martin family into pressing charges and doing an investigation which is why they really had nothing to go on. The prosecution was very weak at the trial and tried to play to the jurors emotions because of a lack of evidence.

Comparing this trial to OJ's is comical. They have nothing in common other than heavy media attention.

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by silviaks2nr

ineedone, what do you make of this? A group of 13/14 year old black kids beat a white man almost to death, and now he's dead 9 months later. To say there's a double standard is an understatement. Only whites can profile, infringe upon another's civil rights, and be racist.

Cincinnati man who was badly beat by 'bored' teens dies

There's really something wrong with America's youth in poor urban areas and something needs to be done about THAT before "civil rights" and "racism" are made into social issues.

It is not relevant to the Zimmerman case or issues. The teens all plead guilty and will likely be brought up on murder charges if the man died as a result of the attack. There is a double standard - just not the one you are trying to make. Here the people who beat a innocent person for no reason went to jail and there was no need for a protest to put them there. There also was no mass public effort to get the kids a legal fund so that they could pay expensive defense attorneys to represent them - they most likely used an overworked public defender - another fun topic (watch Gideons Army on HBO it might change your mind a bit).

Also, if you take them at their word they did not beat him because he was white. They did it because they were just bored. If they said they were looking for white men to beat up then that is a different story.

I think racism and the lack of civil rights for some is a reason why some urban areas are so bad. That is another discussion though.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by Te37

There is no law that you have to obey a 911 operator order. So it is not disobeying.

But there are laws that say you should not give beat downs to "creepy ass crackers".

Wait - cracka... the "A" makes all the difference.

Sounds more like Matrin was the racist and thought he was going teach some dorky "cracka" a leasson and give the beat down to a "white" boy.

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by silviaks2nr

The police saw no reason to investigate a murder because there was little evidence to support it was anything other than an act of self defense. The district attorney and prosecution were bullied by the media and the martin family into pressing charges and doing an investigation which is why they really had nothing to go on. The prosecution was very weak at the trial and tried to play to the jurors emotions because of a lack of evidence.

Comparing this trial to OJ's is comical. They have nothing in common other than heavy media attention.

Well, Sanford county will disagree with you - they fired the Chief of Police over that decision. The reason the police saw no reason to arrest Zimmerman was because of SYG. That was a legal decision that affected the case that was not made by a Judge or by an attorney - that to me is implicitly unfair. Whenever one person is murdered by another there should be an arrest and a thorough investigation. Police go through more scrutiny when they shoot someone in the line of duty - lets at least hold citizens to that standard when they have not been sworn by the state to use lethal force against its citizens. Is that a ridiculous idea?

Both sides tried to play the jury, that is what you do in a case. You present your theory to the jury in the most sympathetic way possible. The difference is when you have a well funded defense it makes it nearly impossible to compete. Hence why people with money (or a fat legal fund like Zimmerman) typically get off or get lower charges. That is just a fact of our legal system.

[silviaks2nr]

Originally Posted by ineedone

It is not relevant to the Zimmerman case or issues. The teens all plead guilty and will likely be brought up on murder charges if the man died as a result of the attack. There is a double standard - just not the one you are trying to make. Here the people who beat a innocent person for no reason went to jail and there was no need for a protest to put them there. There also was no mass public effort to get the kids a legal fund so that they could pay expensive defense attorneys to represent them - they most likely used an overworked public defender - another fun topic (watch Gideons Army on HBO it might change your mind a bit).

Also, if you take them at their word they did not beat him because he was white. They did it because they were just bored. If they said they were looking for white men to beat up then that is a different story.

I think racism and the lack of civil rights for some is a reason why some urban areas are so bad. That is another discussion though.

The double standard is that the media does not care about a black on white crime in today's society and this horrible crime had little media attention because of that. I wonder if those boys would have beat a black man to death instead? Surely they chose their target for a reason, and it was probably because of a gang affiliation. Care to comment on what I mentioned is the real problem here? Poor "BORED" urban teens growing up with no guidance and learning no morals and becoming criminals by the time they turn 13.

[trickey1991]

I work for a call center for a cable company in florida

Spoke with gracie Zimmerman the other day on the phone (his sister) she's a cunt ahhahaha

[silviaks2nr]

some peaceful protesting going on still I see

Caught on Tape: Pro-Trayvon Martin ‘Protesters’ Attack Houston Grandmother and Refuse to Let Family Take Child to Hospital | Video | TheBlaze.com

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by silviaks2nr

The double standard is that the media does not care about a black on white crime in today's society and this horrible crime had little media attention because of that. I wonder if those boys would have beat a black man to death instead? Surely they chose their target for a reason, and it was probably because of a gang affiliation. Care to comment on what I mentioned is the real problem here? Poor "BORED" urban teens growing up with no guidance and learning no morals and becoming criminals by the time they turn 13.

The kids were immediately arrested when found and put in jail. That is not a national story in my opinion. Sure, that is important local news and I bet it was treated that way. Why the outrage and the desperate plea to make this something?

I do not care to comment on your opinion, it has nothing to do with the Zimmerman case at all. If you want to believe all "urban" (we get it, you mean black... just say it) kids are out there looking to commit crimes, so be it. Nothing I say will change your mind. If you have a legal question I will be happy to comment.

[bc.]

Originally Posted by ineedone

No, when it comes to homicide it is a state issue. Therefore, state law applies. For example, Florida laws on murder/self defense can be a lot different than New York. There does exist a "model" code but every state generally has its own intricacies (hence why you take a State Bar exam as well as the Multi State bar exam when becoming an attorney).

The intent issue is interesting as well. It would be required for the 2nd degree murder charge but not the Manslaughter or the 3rd degree felony charge. Like I alluded to before - I saw this as an imperfect self defense case which means that he used more force then was reasonably allowed.

Stand your ground was important to this case when it came to the initial investigation. In most states - when someone is shot, the shooter is arrested and the case is investigated as a homicide. That is a good thing. We want to investigate those things to make sure that the only person who is saying what happened is telling the truth. With SYG - the police can make a prejudicial decision that someone is innocent. I just think that is completely unfair and impairs the judicial process. I know there are tons of other arguments against SYG - but for this conversation I am sticking to purely procedural issues that it creates for a prosecution.

I had actually heard that the police did a very thorough investigation and found no evidence to support anything except that GZ was acting in self defense. Hence why they did not charge him.

As for why he 'followed' the kid, I really really really don't think it was because he was black. He was in a hoody, sneaking around houses, that's suspicious. And to add to that, they had a problem with break-ins recently.

You make some good points dude, but I still think justice prevailed in this case.




To the people claiming he didn't listen to the 911 operators 'orders' not to follow the kid, that is BS on many levels.

1. They don't make orders over the phone because then it comes back on them if something bad happens.
2. Therefore, they only make recommendations, hence the convo "We don't need you to do that" that doesn't sound like an order to me.
3. Since they only give recommendations, there is no law that you have to follow what they say, and they would like to keep it that way otherwise they would get dragged into this kind of thing all the time.

[bc.]

Originally Posted by ineedone

The kids were immediately arrested when found and put in jail. That is not a national story in my opinion. Sure, that is important local news and I bet it was treated that way. Why the outrage and the desperate plea to make this something?

Because it was a hate crime I guess, whereas the GZ&TM thing was at most a scuffle that ended in a tragic death (regardless if you think justice was served), but is being painted as racial profiling and what not.

I think people are upset that obvious racial profiling and hate crime stuff is being ignored to push this episode, which really isn't a race issue.

[tiggertsi]

there are issues in this nation that require more attention from the people than this sad tragedy. issues that can and will affect everyone in the 50 states if they are not discussed. instead we have people rioting and protesting the outcome of this event while citizens in the US are being targeted and spied upon, among other detestable and fascist actions, by criminal elements within our government. this country is now repeating the process that germany went through in 1933 and no one except a few seem to get it or give a shit. shits need to be given now, when you're loaded onto cattle cars the time is too late.

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by bc.

I had actually heard that the police did a very thorough investigation and found no evidence to support anything except that GZ was acting in self defense. Hence why they did not charge him.

I will have to disagree with you on that. They did not inspect Martins clothing, body, etc. before making that decision. They took Zimmerman for his word. Again, had the police done a full investigation at first (and arrested him) this would not have been any media frenzy. I believe that manslaughter would have been an appropriate verdict, but, again, the acquittal was not something that was all that shocking to me either.

But as far as the 911 operator - Legally they are not allowed to give orders because of liability issues. That was one of the bigger myths of this case, that the operator gave an order not to follow. I believe they said "we do not need you to do that."

Originally Posted by bc.

Because it was a hate crime I guess, whereas the GZ&TM thing was at most a scuffle that ended in a tragic death (regardless if you think justice was served), but is being painted as racial profiling and what not.

I think people are upset that obvious racial profiling and hate crime stuff is being ignored to push this episode, which really isn't a race issue.

I want to point out how you immediately jumped to the hate crime. The kids admitted they were bored looking to beat someone up - unless I missed something they did not say they were looking for a "white" guy to beat up. Now, maybe this is because you may be white and are coming at it from that angle and if you are, flip it around from the Zimmerman case - you would do the same and immediately think it was a hate crime because of race.

What I think a lot of people miss is that the initial outrage was not that he was killed by a hispanicsih/whiteish guy because he was black, but that his murder was not investigated because he was black. That is to say, that because some guy said this suspicious black guy was around and attacked me that the police accepted that story whole sale even though only one of the two people were around to tell that story. I get the media twisted it as much as possible, but in the beginning this was about a kid being treated like a criminal who deserved to be shot. When in reality he was an innocent kid just getting candy from a store walking to his Dad's home - and that fact alone made him suspicious and allowed his pursuer/stalker to shoot and kill him with impunity.

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by tiggertsi

there are issues in this nation that require more attention from the people than this sad tragedy. issues that can and will affect everyone in the 50 states if they are not discussed. instead we have people rioting and protesting the outcome of this event while citizens in the US are being targeted and spied upon, among other detestable and fascist actions, by criminal elements within our government. this country is now repeating the process that germany went through in 1933 and no one except a few seem to get it or give a shit. shits need to be given now, when you're loaded onto cattle cars the time is too late.

Yeah, there is another thread for that... Go loon out there and make ridiculous comparisons to Nazi Germany. Keep to the Zimmerman topic.

[bc.]

Originally Posted by ineedone

But as far as the 911 operator - Legally they are not allowed to give orders because of liability issues. That was one of the bigger myths of this case, that the operator gave an order not to follow. I believe they said "we do not need you to do that."

Exactly what I said before, the operator did her job, didn't instruct anyone to do anything.

Originally Posted by ineedone

I want to point out how you immediately jumped to the hate crime. The kids admitted they were bored looking to beat someone up - unless I missed something they did not say they were looking for a "white" guy to beat up. Now, maybe this is because you may be white and are coming at it from that angle and if you are, flip it around from the Zimmerman case - you would do the same and immediately think it was a hate crime because of race.

I guess that story is a bad example, I didn't read about that story. There was a jogger picked up and mugged in one of those red neck states in the south and he claims the muggers had said, "this is for Trayvon". Heard about that yet?

I wish I knew how they picked which stories they want to blow up and which they want to ignore. Is there a formula they use?

Originally Posted by ineedone

What I think a lot of people miss is that the initial outrage was not that he was killed by a hispanicsih/whiteish guy because he was black, but that his murder was not investigated because he was black. That is to say, that because some guy said this suspicious black guy was around and attacked me that the police accepted that story whole sale even though only one of the two people were around to tell that story. I get the media twisted it as much as possible, but in the beginning this was about a kid being treated like a criminal who deserved to be shot. When in reality he was an innocent kid just getting candy from a store walking to his Dad's home - and that fact alone made him suspicious and allowed his pursuer/stalker to shoot and kill him with impunity.

Whatever the initial outrage was has been lost on 98% of the people now, thanks to the media spin that turned this into a race issue so they could get views that last all summer.

[Mikester]

Originally Posted by bc.

I wish I knew how they picked which stories they want to blow up and which they want to ignore. Is there a formula they use?

initial outrage thanks to the media spin that turned this into a race issue so they could get views that last all summer.

Brad- Formula they use highlighted in your own words

Any random act and/or tragedy + Anything easily spun to reap large return on investment (ratings) = HYPE THAT SHIT UP!!!

Personally, I wasn't there and like most everyone else in this thread; I haven't sat and read the entire courtroom transcripts front to back. Therefore I have no opinion on who deserved what.

However, the bottom line is that our loveable, sweet & innocent little Tryevon found out the hard way that attacking and commencing to pummel a guy with a conceal & carry permit is never a good idea. Black, white, brown or yellow is irrelevant. The only thing I see in this whole shabang is as follows: Stupid kid made stupid choice and payed the ultimate price for being stupid.

Charles Darwin- 1
Treyvon Martin- 0

[J3123MY]

Fuck this shit. It is complete bull shit. Fucking wannabe hero vigilante fuckers.
Fucker pulls out a gun in a fist fight that he provoked.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by J3123MY

Fuck this shit. It is complete bull shit. Fucking wannabe hero vigilante fuckers.
Fucker pulls out a gun in a fist fight that he provoked.

Following abd talking to people is not provoking a fight.

[drftngs14]

This was a great debate/discussion with logical opinions and facts, until that post ^^.. come back and join us with logic instead of your street talk bullshit. If thats you're only input pleast dont bother