This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread.

[ballinnmiami240sx]

This is the official trial and error thread!!

[SoSideways]

At least some people are willing to give things a shot themselves.

The whole entire S-chassis suspension tuning pretty much halted since like the mid nineties and not a whole lot of development has come out for the whole scene until recently, when the close minded drift kids actually opened up their minds about roll centers and how to make their cars handle better, then the flood gates opened.

So yeah, if things don't work, fine, at least you gave it your all, and I bet you you would have learned a shit ton by going hands on about all the details of something, whether it works out or not.

[95KA-Turbo]

I was thinking of caster as the wheels position in the wheel well, not the angle of the shock.

Anyway, my stage 2 roll center modifications up front will involve a tubular LCA with 1" spherical bearing and 3/4" straight bolt so I don't have to worry about binding on the bearing. By then I'll have made some caster plates as well. I had not seen those GC caster plates, that is a much simpler design but would also effectively raise the car up higher then a double plate method, not much, but still.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

I was thinking of caster as the wheels position in the wheel well, not the angle of the shock.

Well, please think of it as the angle of the shock from now on.

Originally Posted by SoSideways

I don't know about that.

I have personally adjusted my front suspension to extreme positive caster, probably in the 8 degrees + range, and have seen my wheels lean over, and when I adjusted it back to close to stock, the leaning was much less severe, all without touching the camber, which was done via the top camber plate...

Please read my post. I am saying camber plates do not affect steering axis. Caster plates would. So running more static camber using camber plates is not going to do anything for the wheel leaning over issue. Slotting the lower mounts on the coilover brackets will.

I think it's funny how we always misread each other, and usually have the same idea in actuality.

[Tearlessj]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Slot your lower brackets on your coilovers. This is the only way to get more leading tire on the ground besides running less caster. The first choice would be running less caster. Use your tension rod to pull your tire farther from the firewall and use caster plates to decrease your caster. It might even out. You can always slot the strut tower (I know, lots of people are against this).

Are you running stock tension rods? If so, there's your problem. Those bushings are gone and causing the whole front suspension to move back with the bushing flex in those and the LCA.

BTW, your front roll center is at somewhere around the core of the earth.

I'm actually running SPL tension rods. I told the alignment shop that I was shooting for around 7 and they told me that they couldn't adjust my tension rods anymore. They said they were already fully extended? Could it be that I installed them incorrectly?

I'm running a 225/40/18 in the front with a 18x9 +3. I've already hammers the crap out of the firewall, but its still pretty close. I'm going to go take some pics later today.

[SoSideways]

You probably installed the tension rods incorrectly then.

Or the shop adjusted them incorrectly.

This is the proper way to do it.

http://splparts.com/instructions/SPL_TR_S13.pdf

Basically you screw the rod into the adjuster, and the rod end into the adjuster until neither can go in any more, then you extend the rod by only turning the adjuster piece, which should thread the rod and rod end out at the same rate, so you don't have one side longer than the other.

[longfellow]

I had 7.5* castor on my S14 using SPL ver. 2 tension rods. Had plenty or room to go further if I needed.

[mikerbike]

I disconnected my front sway bar today just for fun. I didn't like it at all. It made the steering feel mushy until the car rolled over a bit, then it gripped pretty well. It seemed like it pushed a lot more through the turns, unless I was really close to the 'limit'. And then it just felt like it was going to lose rear traction. DID NOT LIKE.

I went to a local drift spot (race track, all legal ) and same thing, mushy turn in, then normal while sliding, but when changing directions, the front had too much grip because the car was already rolling over from the momentum of the switchback. So I reinstalled the sway bar link on the side of the road (race track I mean..) and tried again. For sure I do not like not having a front sway bar.

[ballinnmiami240sx]

its all on the your cars full set up. We ran no front swaybar with ISIS coilover set on 10 front stiffness and the rear full soft. It made the car very predicable with lots of grip up front and out back. Its all on your style and how you drive the car. My setup may not be the same as yours. I set my car up for aggressive driving and making the car handle while in drift. I like to initiate fast and early, thus needing a lot of front bite.

Depending on the track our tire pressure up front will range from 28psi to 42. on the rear we usually start around 65psi depending on tire wear and grip. Also remember that this is a KA24de car and your setup might be different.

[95KA-Turbo]

Yeah, I definitely like running a front sway bar. The car felt like a bag of dicks without one. I was pushing because the rear had more grip then then front (at least thats what it felt like), as soon as I put the sway bar on the car suddenly became more predictable and I had way more steering feel and grip. Still not as much front grip I was wanted, but a stickier tire should fix that (I hope). I know not drifting in freezing temperatures will help that a whole lot!

[longfellow]

I personally cant stand driving with out sway bars. On the S14 had 6k/4k springs on KTS coilovers and a progress front sway bar and it was the best handling DD set up ever. I also had way more confidence on the back country roads with it on the soft springs/big bar set up because it wouldnt bounce and hop over every little bump. It was insanely easy to drive fast. Lots of front end bite and a slightly loose back side yet still had insane traction. It was perfectly balanced for my driving style.

I out ran a C6 Z06 and a few Exige S Lotus's at an auto-x back in june with only about 275hp. (only my second DE)

[Def]

No sway bars is horrible for our cars. They need more roll stiffness, not less.

I can only think the people that like no bars only pull like .5 Lateral Gs or something so it "feels good." most drift cars rarely pull many lateral Gs so maybe that's why drifters like it sometimes.

[singlecamslam]

No sway bars with coilovers feels like stock suspension with blown shocks in the corners, SO much roll.

[articdragon192]

Originally Posted by Def

No sway bars is horrible for our cars. They need more roll stiffness, not less.

I can only think the people that like no bars only pull like .5 Lateral Gs or something so it "feels good." most drift cars rarely pull many lateral Gs so maybe that's why drifters like it sometimes.

Originally Posted by Jeff Naeyaert from MotoIQ

For those snobby racers that continually tell me that drifting is not a motorsport or lame, I suggest looking at the data overlay on the video we have attached. Dynamically we are reaching way over one lateral G usually reaching as much as 1.3 g’s in drift! The car also spends a lot of time accelerating at just under one G, sometimes reaching over one G. That is a lot of mechanical grip which says a lot for both the capability of the Falken 615K street tire and the Falken/Discount Tire S13.

Link: Revenge of the Nerd: End of the Formula D Season and a Lesson in Drift Car Dynamics

[GripTerror]

i second the no swaybar thing.. i ran without one in the rear and thought the car was utter crap and all over the place not to mention understeer city.

Went to a hicas swaybar in the rear.. and boy oh boy the car felt more stable and just better.

Internetz advice = fail.

[e1_griego]

Originally Posted by articdragon192

Link: Revenge of the Nerd: End of the Formula D Season and a Lesson in Drift Car Dynamics

Guess who's also running a front sway bar...

[longfellow]

Originally Posted by articdragon192

Link: Revenge of the Nerd: End of the Formula D Season and a Lesson in Drift Car Dynamics

$60K+ competition car =/= what people on Zilvia drive.

Thats like me saying my old S14 is comparable to the Exceed Moat S14's.

[Def]

Originally Posted by articdragon192

Link: Revenge of the Nerd: End of the Formula D Season and a Lesson in Drift Car Dynamics

Sigh... drift fan boy... no big surprise I suppose.

Fact - tires generate less lateral traction when they're sliding than when they're not. Same tire, all things equal, you will pull less lateral G's in a drift than not - this has been proven time and time again.

My statement wasn't knocking drift cars, but most use pretty cheap/hard tires just because they're burning through them quickly (I would too). So that gets back to my statement that most drift cars pull low lateral G's - somewhere around 0.5 in a drift.


So it wasn't a knock, just simple physics.


I know I know, your scraping low mad tite S chassis looks so cool drifting and all the local hard parkers say you're super fast as you initiate at 27 mph into your "street drift" - that still doesn't mean you're pulling many lateral G's, even though you might pop on over to MotoIQ once in a while and read about your drift heros.


BTW - transient G readings are stupidly meaningless when you're throwing the car around, of course they can peak much higher than your steady state. Note they didn't mention much about steady state lateral G's in a drift...

[singlecamslam]

DEF is my hero.

[GripTerror]

Def - 1
Fanboi - 0

lol jk :P

[Z33dori]

Originally Posted by singlecamslam

No sway bars with coilovers feels like stock suspension with blown shocks in the corners, SO much roll.

which is why i wanna find out why mine wont fit back in..... its killing me.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Z33dori

which is why i wanna find out why mine wont fit back in..... its killing me.

When you're as low as you are, the FLCA's move up at an angle, and the endlinks start to point in.

Loosen the endlinks up, put the sway bar back on, and tighten them up, it's okay if they are pushed out a little.

[nieko]

gripterror and singlecamslam = Def fanbois.

chumps.

Edgar(arcticdragon) isn't a fanboy at all... He was just posting info that he saw.

At first i was like wo thats a lot of gs while drifitng.

but then as Def stated, those arent steady state gs, thats probably while hes throwing the car, transitioning, etc...

[articdragon192]

Originally Posted by Def

Sigh... drift fan boy... no big surprise I suppose.

Fact - tires generate less lateral traction when they're sliding than when they're not. Same tire, all things equal, you will pull less lateral G's in a drift than not - this has been proven time and time again.

My statement wasn't knocking drift cars, but most use pretty cheap/hard tires just because they're burning through them quickly (I would too). So that gets back to my statement that most drift cars pull low lateral G's - somewhere around 0.5 in a drift.


So it wasn't a knock, just simple physics.


I know I know, your scraping low mad tite S chassis looks so cool drifting and all the local hard parkers say you're super fast as you initiate at 27 mph into your "street drift" - that still doesn't mean you're pulling many lateral G's, even though you might pop on over to MotoIQ once in a while and read about your drift heros.


BTW - transient G readings are stupidly meaningless when you're throwing the car around, of course they can peak much higher than your steady state. Note they didn't mention much about steady state lateral G's in a drift...

Uh Def, I wasn't knocking you. Just pointing out that drift cars can pull 1 G or more. We aren't exactly talking about shitty put togetther drift cars in this thread, but rather their imporvements and such.
and please don't resort to calling me a drift fan boy. That's uncalled for. I do actively road race my car. And I don't drive an S chassis. My super lowness doesn't affect my suspension as much as it does an S chassis, so my scraping low mad tite Z32 chassis looks so cool drifting as it does road racing
all poking fun aside, please don't be little me just because I enjoy drifting and posted one link from MotoIQ that had drifting in it. I have been following this thread since day 1 looking at way several of the things you guys are doing to the S chassis can be transferred over to my Z to improve its performance while still being chassis scraping low.

EDIT: btw, if you look at the chart of Gs vs. Ti,e on the second page, you'll see dips from initioation, but you'll also see the car sitting at around 1G sideway for a decent amount of time. That would be considered transient wouldn't it? Not to mention its still on street tires.

[Def]

Originally Posted by nieko

gripterror and singlecamslam = Def fanbois.

chumps.

Edgar(arcticdragon) isn't a fanboy at all... He was just posting info that he saw.

At first i was like wo thats a lot of gs while drifitng.

but then as Def stated, those arent steady state gs, thats probably while hes throwing the car, transitioning, etc...

That's what dynamic means...

The link he posted up and the stupid quote had nothing to do with my post. He might not be a fanboy in your eyes, but anybody who tries to talk about how super fast drifting is or how many lateral Gs they're pulling are just missing th point IMO. The whole point of drifting is to slide the car, tar laws of physics state that if you didn't slide the car it'd have more grip to go around a corner faster or pull more Gs. That's cool if you like it, but as far as speed/Gs go, you'd be faster if you didn't drift that same section of road.

So that brings me back to my original statement, which holds true for 99.9999% of the cars on this forum, no matter how butt hurt it makes the fanboys.

[Def]

Originally Posted by articdragon192

Uh Def, I wasn't knocking you. Just pointing out that drift cars can pull 1 G or more. We aren't exactly talking about shitty put togetther drift cars in this thread, but rather their imporvements and such.
and please don't resort to calling me a drift fan boy. That's uncalled for. I do actively road race my car. And I don't drive an S chassis. My super lowness doesn't affect my suspension as much as it does an S chassis, so my scraping low mad tite Z32 chassis looks so cool drifting as it does road racing
all poking fun aside, please don't be little me just because I enjoy drifting and posted one link from MotoIQ that had drifting in it. I have been following this thread since day 1 looking at way several of the things you guys are doing to the S chassis can be transferred over to my Z to improve its performance while still being chassis scraping low.

I guess no one here knows what dynamic means?

I could probably hit 1.3 G peak lateral if I threw a Geo Metro into a cambered corner, it doesn't really mean much other than it just hit it for a few microseconds.

Like I said, my original statement still stands about why drift guys seem to sometimes like no sway bars.

[WISH ONE]

Def, you compesate for no rear sway bar with higher rear spring rates, right? or no?
My bar is still there, im just curious.

[Z33dori]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

When you're as low as you are, the FLCA's move up at an angle, and the endlinks start to point in.

Loosen the endlinks up, put the sway bar back on, and tighten them up, it's okay if they are pushed out a little.

ya thats the only thing i could think, i just couldn't remember them pushing out that much before. But maybe b/c i never took it off. idk. i'll prolly try and handle it tomorrow

[Def]

Originally Posted by WISH ONE

Def, you compesate for no rear sway bar with higher rear spring rates, right? or no?
My bar is still there, im just curious.

I have 9.2/6.6 kg/mm rear springs (same rates as with no sways on the car, and front only no rear) - it's very stiff in the fore/aft weight transfer direction. Significantly stiffer and the car would just not grip the road well, and I feel it's not far from the limits of what the chassis can really support from a stiffness standpoint.

I have a ~12% stiffer S13 25mm solid front sway and a ~15% stiffer hollow 19mm J30 rear sway right now.

These cars *NEED* sway bars front and rear to actually corner well. There's nothing you can do to the car to get enough roll stiffness without having a comical amount of spring which will have the car skittering over any bumps (I'm talking 750+ lb/in).

[WISH ONE]

Thanks Def!
It was something that was on my mind.
I am still running both bars, I didnt remember where I read or who said that they ran no rear bar for their grip car (s13), so i thought id ask and see if could get someone to elaborate a tad more.