This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread.

[Croustibat]

I dont remember wisefab needing any fabrication ... their first front model needed some work on the coilover mount to turrets, their FD legal design does not i believe, it has a bracket that bolts to the standard turret.

[PoorMans180SX]

Wisefab is 100% bolt on as far as I know.

[Mr_Flamenco]

really?

then why it is in my big NO list
i thought you would cancel the sway bar as well the you can't fit was it 17" or 18" wheels and the fenders need to be modified to get the room for the wheels to get that extreme angle?
its ok its not the first time i am wrong

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Mr_Flamenco

really?

then why it is in my big NO list
i thought you would cancel the sway bar as well the you can't fit was it 17" or 18" wheels and the fenders need to be modified to get the room for the wheels to get that extreme angle?
its ok its not the first time i am wrong

Yes you will have to remove your sway bar.
Yes the fenders will probably have to be rolled and pulled or replaced with wide ones.
17" or 18" wheels should work just fine.

But these are things you are going to have to do with any angle kit that will get you to 55 degrees or more.

[Mr_Flamenco]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Yes you will have to remove your sway bar.
Yes the fenders will probably have to be rolled and pulled or replaced with wide ones.
17" or 18" wheels should work just fine.

But these are things you are going to have to do with any angle kit that will get you to 55 degrees or more.

man I cant tell you how much I really learned from your posts on this thread
really appreciate your generous and taking the time to answer noobs like me.

ok great, what about this one Abercrombie Motor Sports i know some people talked about it here but no one gave thorough feed back.
its seems like 1/3 of the price of the wiseFab, and doesnt have to remove the way bar?
I have trying to contact Cor Integration "When Form Meets Function" as well to see what they have but their site seems down. not sure they they are priced

I just need to know that i am not wasting money ,, rather investing it you know

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Mr_Flamenco

man I cant tell you how much I really learned from your posts on this thread
really appreciate your generous and taking the time to answer noobs like me.

ok great, what about this one Abercrombie Motor Sports i know some people talked about it here but no one gave thorough feed back.
its seems like 1/3 of the price of the wiseFab, and doesnt have to remove the way bar?
I have trying to contact Cor Integration "When Form Meets Function" as well to see what they have but their site seems down. not sure they they are priced

I just need to know that i am not wasting money ,, rather investing it you know

Abercrombie is good stuff, it's modded stock knuckles, so there's going to be some ackerman in them, and yes you can keep your sway bar, but you won't be able to get the crazy zero-ackerman angles that the other (Wisefab/TDP) kits will. Maybe if you have a Cor Integration sway bar. Cor Integration is good stuff as well. But they both require you to send in your stock knuckles for them to modify as far as I know.

I've been wanting to try the Cor sway bar out to see if it allows the full clearance on my Track Day Performance kit.

[Mr_Flamenco]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Abercrombie is good stuff, it's modded stock knuckles, so there's going to be some ackerman in them, and yes you can keep your sway bar, but you won't be able to get the crazy zero-ackerman angles that the other (Wisefab/TDP) kits will. Maybe if you have a Cor Integration sway bar. Cor Integration is good stuff as well. But they both require you to send in your stock knuckles for them to modify as far as I know.

I've been wanting to try the Cor sway bar out to see if it allows the full clearance on my Track Day Performance kit.

" But they both require you to send in your stock knuckles for them to modify as far as I know" they both you mean Abercrombie?

that what is really attractive about wisefab, but what happens to handeling I know someone installed it here and he sold his car and complained the cars control went really bad after installing wisefab kit,, and the whole drifting community stopped ordering it after I was about to reserve 10 pieces and.. now i am not sure what went wrong there either his installation or its his driving style, so it had me to have a phobia.

TDP seems to have a weak website no info about their product.. well there is info but you cant order through website no pricing. but come on man that is the sexist kit so far,

so apart from wisefab what is my best bet? zeroish ackerman, 55-60 degrees of lock, minimal fabrication, hate bumpsteers

[derass]

MA Motorsports have been doing modified knuckles forever. I'm also digging the new Part Shop Max Forged knuckles with the roll center correction. If you want zero ackerman, you could go with GKTech knuckles.

The only handling problem I can see after installing a Wisefab kit would be the reduced turn-in response due to low/zero ackerman.

With any steering angle modifications, you will need to consider a few things. Over-centering, that can be prevented by relocating the steering rack or using offset rack spacers. Tension rod / sway bar clearance, which is largely affected by wheel width and offset. Finally, frame rail clearance, which can be solved with extended lower control arms. Perhaps the Part Shop Max LCA / tension rod combination would be a good option for you, as it would help with 2 of those concerns at once.

[PoorMans180SX]

Some cool shots of the TDP kit in action in this vid:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200345572902533

[scir16v]

I've read this whole thread and i don't think this question has been asked.

Do you use the inner tie rod spacers that come with the tein inner tie rods with modded knuckles?

[Mr_Flamenco]

Originally Posted by scir16v

I've read this whole thread and i don't think this question has been asked.

Do you use the inner tie rod spacers that come with the tein inner tie rods with modded knuckles?

Yes to get increased angle.. actually you can get almost 5-10 degree angle just buy adding the spaces with stock knuckles, 1 or two degree extra if grind the knuckle stopper

[Croustibat]

Originally Posted by Mr_Flamenco

that what is really attractive about wisefab, but what happens to handeling I know someone installed it here and he sold his car and complained the cars control went really bad after installing wisefab kit,, and the whole drifting community stopped ordering it after I was about to reserve 10 pieces and.. now i am not sure what went wrong there either his installation or its his driving style, so it had me to have a phobia.

Championnat de Drift Round 1 Ledenon 2013 (13) - YouTube

The white S13 that does not have its paint done is running in pro drift championship french serie with a wisefab at the front and no other suspension mod than cheap ass coilovers. I'd say the drifting community needs to learn how to drift properly. Considering his total lack of budget, he is doing pretty well.

[Mr_Flamenco]

Originally Posted by Croustibat

Championnat de Drift Round 1 Ledenon 2013 (13) - YouTube

The white S13 that does not have its paint done is running in pro drift championship french serie with a wisefab at the front and no other suspension mod than cheap ass coilovers. I'd say the drifting community needs to learn how to drift properly. Considering his total lack of budget, he is doing pretty well.

I guess you are right, its hard for me to say since I did not try them my self.

[Croustibat]

I think what happened with the guy who sold it is quite simple. He had a poor setup, and was used to it. Then he installed the wisefab setup , which is quite good, and he could not do anything with it because he went from poor grip to good grip. Of course if it is different, the driver needs to learn again. It is not just a matter of getting more angle, the front wheels just work properly and grip with that kind of kit. This needs some time and practice to get used to, but in the end it allows to pull more angle and go faster.

I have one advice for all the people tempted to buy one of those kits: if you are happy with how your front wheels work, or do not want to relearn anything, do NOT install modded knuckles ...

[pjmrnolife1]

If there was an unlimited amount of angle available, how much could we handle functionally mid drift?

[Motary]

Probably not more than 180 degrees

Originally Posted by Croustibat

I dont remember wisefab needing any fabrication ... their first front model needed some work on the coilover mount to turrets, their FD legal design does not i believe, it has a bracket that bolts to the standard turret.

FD legal kit needs a hole drilled in the strut tower like this:



Non Formula Drift legal kit only needs a hole drilled for the fourth bolt:



You only need a drill to do that. TDP kit is full bolt on, but imo the bolt together knuckle and lower arm is just silly

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Motary

Probably not more than 180 degrees


You only need a drill to do that. TDP kit is full bolt on, but imo the bolt together knuckle and lower arm is just silly

You do need to make a notch in the subframe to clear the front lower arms.

The amount of bolts is a little silly, but the part that mounts to the subframe pivots to compensate for caster adjustment.

The cool thing about the TDP kit is that I can set it to be basically stock geometry, full zero ackerman/low caster, or anything in between.

Oh and the MASSIVE roll center correction.

[Croustibat]

Originally Posted by Croustibat

I think what happened with the guy who sold it is quite simple. He had a poor setup, and was used to it. Then he installed the wisefab setup , which is quite good, and he could not do anything with it because he went from poor grip to good grip. Of course if it is different, the driver needs to learn again. It is not just a matter of getting more angle, the front wheels just work properly and grip with that kind of kit. This needs some time and practice to get used to, but in the end it allows to pull more angle and go faster.

I have one advice for all the people tempted to buy one of those kits: if you are happy with how your front wheels work, or do not want to relearn anything, do NOT install modded knuckles ...

A pic is worth thousand words, so i am going to post one.
This is the same driver we saw in the video i posted, with the latest evolution of the car. It is an S13 with a custom front end, has a 370HP sr20det with a gtx2863r . Chassis wise : cheap ass coilovers, wisefab front kit. I think he does not even have adjustable arms rear. Stock VLSD .

I would like to hear the drifting communty telling me how much this kit sucks, please (and he did not spin after that pic)

[Silvi]

some pics of tension rod relocated holes on a stock LCA ,to get more wheel space?

[jaysgottaredtop]

finished putting all my stuff together the other day.

PBM forged drop knuckles
~56mm extended FLCAs (+40mm welded ext. plus inner rose joint threaded out another ~16mm)
Megan tension rods
PBM eccentric rack bushings
PBM inner tie rod spacers
Maxima/I30 inner tie rods (damn, these things are long as hell)
S14 outer tie rods

rear is nothing fancy, just adjustable arms and PBM solid subframe risers.








thumbs up for these PBM front knuckles putting my FLCAs and tie rods damn near level. i'm impressed.

effective wheel specs are 16x9 -32 and 16x10 -32. yes, the front has a big scrub radius. no, i don't really care. and no, it doesn't rub anything lock to lock. hooray for short tires!

[derass]

Nice setup! I'm assuming you have the camber plates fully positive? I need flares like those so I can be low again. How much thread engagement do you have between the inner and outer tie rod?

[Mr_Flamenco]

Amazing setup
love the flares, how much steering angle are you getting now?

[slidewayz240]

I have been working with RLD Fabrication on some caster/camber plates. They need a few more tweaks before a final prototype is ready for testing but I figured I would show you guys a few pics of the design.

Camber can be adjusted by rotating the plate to use one of the 3 sets of holes. There is nearly 1.5" of rough camber adjustment allowing for a variety of LCA lengths. Fine tuning camber adjustments can be made with a slotted hole in the strut, or an adjustable LCA. In the pictures I have camber as far removed as possible with the top hat.





Static Camber:


Full Lock Camber:


Once the design is finalized I'll get my car on an alignment rack and give you guys full specs on adjustments.

My current front end specs are PBM first generation weld on max angle kit, relocated the steering rack 1" forward, 1.5" extended s13 LCAs, Ikea formula inner tie rods, Moog s14 outer tie rod ends.

Tape marks show steering angle from lock to lock and the wheel straight.

[derass]

Originally Posted by Mr_Flamenco

how much steering angle are you getting now?

If he's off the tension rods, then all of it! How much TC rod clearance do you have at lock with that offset?

[jaysgottaredtop]

Originally Posted by derass

Nice setup! I'm assuming you have the camber plates fully positive? I need flares like those so I can be low again. How much thread engagement do you have between the inner and outer tie rod?

camber plates are right around the center of the circle. enough tie rod engagement that i'm not worried, but i'm not sure on the exact thread count after tweaking the toe.

Originally Posted by Mr_Flamenco

Amazing setup
love the flares, how much steering angle are you getting now?

not sure how many degrees. the first and only thing that hits is the outer tie rod on the LCA. i might pull off these LCAs and weld in a relief arch for that tie rod to travel further. but i'm fine as-is, this is gobs more angle than i'm used to having.

Originally Posted by derass

If he's off the tension rods, then all of it! How much TC rod clearance do you have at lock with that offset?

plenty of clearance everywhere. the top and back of my wheel wells are bashed in with a hammer, and the front sides are completely cut out. plus these 225/45/16 front tires are pretty short. the wheel still isn't close to the tension rod at full lock, mostly thanks to the low effective wheel offset.

[shoguner]

Originally Posted by Silvi

some pics of tension rod relocated holes on a stock LCA ,to get more wheel space?

I had to basically max (make my tension rods super short) to keep any kind of caster.

[Matej]

Has anyone attempted using R32/Z32 front coilovers as S13 rears? It looks like they could be a direct fit, as long as the S13 top mounts are used.
It could be a possible way to help retain some rear suspension travel on a low car, though I am trying to find out how different the valving is.

[G5SR20240]

Originally Posted by Matej

Has anyone attempted using R32/Z32 front coilovers as S13 rears? It looks like they could be a direct fit, as long as the S13 top mounts are used.
Being shorter, they could go low while still retaining some rear suspension travel.

That's irrelevant, even the most basic of coil overs now for the s chassis have adjustable perch mounts. Shock travel stays the same although the proper roll center and geometry will need to be fixed being that low

[Matej]

Originally Posted by G5SR20240

That's irrelevant, even the most basic of coil overs now for the s chassis have adjustable perch mounts.

Indeed, but the length of the S13 rear damper itself is what becomes the hindrance when trying to go really low with most S13 coilovers. Thus many people end up maxing the rears out and/or using shorter springs, which is not necessarily good for the lifespan of the damper, nor will it perform at its potential.
I suppose one way to remedy this is to raise the rear strut towers, such as C's Garage did.

Do the aftermarket rear knuckle options space the bottom shock mounting point lower? Or would that have an adverse effect on something else?

[Silvi]

Which inner tie rod is recommended for those who extended their LCA and now the stock are too short?
Im using Altima tie rods, they are bit longer than the stock ones but i'm almost maximized them and it's kinda dangerous.