Product Review - Fortune Auto 500 Series Coilovers

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Perfect Balance

I mean soft simply in terms of the spring rate you're running.

The graph definitely shows a stiffer rebound curve than before, the issue is that it's a progressive curve instead of a digressive curve. Anything under roughly 2 in./sec is typically stuff like the suspension compressing for a corner or something like that. Weight transfer, basically. The quicker the movements get, basically what happens when you hits bumps in the road, rumble strips, jumps (basically everything above 2 in./sec), you don't want the rebound too stiff because the car will simply skip over bumps instead of absorbing them. Having too much compression or rebound at very high piston movements creates a very harsh ride and is very unstable. This is why you want a shock dyno to flatten off as the piston speed gets higher. This is difficult to do, so most shock dynos from cheap manufacturers are typically just a linear graph, with a linear relation between "stiffness" (I don't know the proper terminology) and piston movement speed.

What you've got posted above is a progressive rebound curve that gets exponentially stiffer the quicker the piston speed. Basically the harder of a bump you hit, the more your dampers will restrict any kind of movement. Granted, this is the rebound curve and not compression, but essentially what it's like is driving your car off a small step each time you hit a bump instead of the wheels coming down and absorbing it.

Like I said, it probably feels "ok" because of simply how soft the suspension is, it more or less just soaks everything up.

So what you're saying is all basically right and all, but Odi knows what he's doing. Do you know what a damper graph should look like for an S13? What specific values it should run? I don't either.

Also, rebound force pushed the wheel back on the ground after compression, and if you don't run enough of it, your suspension will tend to "pack down" over a long bumpy section.

Basically, if Odi added it, it's because it needed to be there.

[Perfect Balance]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

So what you're saying is all basically right and all, but Odi knows what he's doing. Do you know what a damper graph should look like for an S13? What specific values it should run? I don't either.

No, not specifically for an S13, but they should ALWAYS be some form of a digressive curve, except for maybe drag racing or something, I have no idea.

Really high end companies like Moton and Penske, ect, a lot of them don't offer many applications, but they sell dampers individually that you have to get fitted for your car. A damper graph "for an s13" isn't different from any other application in any noteworthy way. Things like spring rate, wheel rate, and the weight of the car all play a factor, but it's all really modifications to an already "ideal" damper.

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Also, rebound force pushed the wheel back on the ground after compression, and if you don't run enough of it, your suspension will tend to "pack down" over a long bumpy section.

You've got that backwards. The damper resists movement. Increasing rebound damping prevents the spring (the whole assembly, really) from expanding as quickly as it should and THIS is what creates what you're describing, not the other way around. This is why it makes the car feel unstable over bumps if you've got too much rebound damping. Not enough rebound damping simply makes the car bouncy. This is why cars with stock struts and lowering springs bounce.

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Basically, if Odi added it, it's because it needed to be there.

I don't know this guy, so I can't comment on his knowledge, he seems to have good results, but if "it needed to be there", then why are all high end manufacturers saying a progressive damper curve is completely ass backwards of what you actually want? Ohlins, Sachs, Penske, Koni, Moton, all have digressive dyno plots...

[PoorMans180SX]

Well spin me around and call me a newb. My bad. That is strange. This is Odi's FEAL 441 valving...

Notice rebound goes nice and low, unlike the typical Fortune, which has tons and tons of rebound at all clicks.

Razi, how many clicks do you run front and rear? I think the graph with only one reference point might be deceiving.



This is interesting as well (notice progressive 3000GT insert).



And here I very roughly graphed Odi's 441's at 10 clicks into it (thick black lines). Seems to be pretty similar to Koni's...

[Perfect Balance]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Well spin me around and call me a newb. My bad. That is strange. This is Odi's FEAL 441 valving...

Notice rebound goes nice and low, unlike the typical Fortune, which has tons and tons of rebound at all clicks.

The Feel graph only goes up to 300lb in force , where as the Fortunes go up to 600ish. Between those two graphs, the Fortunes are much stiffer. In fact, from what little we can see, the Feal graph is nearly identical to the "before" Fortune Auto graph Razi posted, which Odi said was WAY too soft, even for 3k springs?

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

This is interesting as well (notice progressive 3000GT insert).

The progressive 3000gt insert is exactly the kind of shock dyno you get from a mass produced, cheap strut that is intended to last a very long time. And yet, they "feel" ok. This is what I was referring to when I said that his might feel ok simply because of how soft the springs are, in the same way $20 autozone struts feel ok. Given a stiffer spring, it becomes more important to have proper damping. The Fortune Auto graph you posted has a lot more rebound damping than the one Razi posted. In fact, it's over twice as much in a lot of places. I'm nor sure what happened with Razi's shock that they either became that soft, or were valved that way, I just don't really see the new dyno plot as an improvement.

EDIT:

This is an Ohlins shock dyno. You tell me which one it looks more similar to. It's slightly progressive at first but then flattens out. Where they flatten out between 2-4 in/sec velocity, Razi's revalved Fortunes do the exact opposite and ramp up on the rebound.



Bilstien: Rises at first and then flattens out as it gets into the higher piston speeds.

[PoorMans180SX]

That Ohlins graph also has way too much rebound damping for an S-chassis besides in the 25-30 sweep range, where it looks very similar to both the FEAL and Koni graphs...

I think we need to focus more on values than shapes here, as I would say that they are more important.

[Perfect Balance]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

That Ohlins graph also has way too much rebound damping for an S-chassis besides in the 5-10 click range

What makes you say that?

Also this depends a lot of spring rate as well.

Also, it looks nowhere NEAR the Feal graph. The feal graph is only at 150lb in the 5 sec velocity range, where the Ohlins is there at 2.5 seconds, even on the softest setting. It's at 250lb at 9ish in/sec velocity, and the Ohlins at that point is 500+lb. The "shape" is somewhat similar but its only because they aren't spaced nearly the same way. The Feal graph is at 10 in./sec velocity halfwa across the graph and all the others stretch only to 10 across the whole thing.

EDIT: I am focusing on values rather than shapes. I thought you were simply looking at the shapes.

[PoorMans180SX]

Hahah, I think we're fighting the same fight here.

It is well known that an 8611 damper is a good match for the typical 8/6 spring rates and S-chassis weight. It's at the very least a dang good benchmark.

So comparing those values to any other shock damping value is a good place to start when trying to find something good for the s-chassis.

Hence why your Ohlins graph and the Fortune 510 graph have WAY too much rebound.

Maybe if you were running a race slick and super high spring rates.

[Razi]

As I said before, the graph was with the coils at 20 clicks.
I don't know about the fronts, I haven't touched those in ages. Lucky they haven't blown yet.

The difference between the Fortunes on Odi's dyno and the one you posted might be because I believe I got the Fortunes (Summer 2010) just as they were switching to Gen 3, so the valving might've been a bit different than the ones the posted online.

While looking for older Fortune graphs I ran into these graphs and thought you guys might be interested.

2009


S2000 (Posted in 2011)


GC Impreza Gen 3

[PoorMans180SX]

Yeah their 500 series graphs are actually better than the 510's...

[Razi]

That's could be why the dyno on my stock Fortunes look different than the graph you posted. Mine was a 500 series one.

[PoorMans180SX]

For sure. I was mainly using that one because it already had the koni and 3000gt insert plots on it, and perfect balance and I were still arguing about nothing hahhah.

[Perfect Balance]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Yeah their 500 series graphs are actually better than the 510's...

I think if they could get the damper curve from the 510's but at the values of the 500, I think that would be the best of the two, at least from my understanding of dampers. As the 510s are they're too stiff for a typical 8/6kg setup. I should mention mine are 10/8kg so what I've considered "ideal" for a 240 might be skewed for that reason.

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

For sure. I was mainly using that one because it already had the koni and 3000gt insert plots on it, and perfect balance and I were still arguing about nothing hahhah.

It's also worth mentioning the Fortune Auto's have been redesigned a number of times already, these dyno plot we're finding are probably nowhere near accurate anymore.

[95KA-Turbo]

Yeah they hand build the latest version in Virginia for all US orders. I don't believe they had the man power to do this originally. They're also always experimenting with their own cars to try out different dampening settings when they do track days, so you can expect changes to continue for the better.

[indytrucks]

I just got the latest version of the 500 series on my 180 and they are pretty good so far. My last suspension (other than the blown kts that came on the 180) was an Ohlins set up on my R33 and these are just about as comfy in the softest setting. Ill give them a few days to "break in" before I turn the stiffness up and see how they feel with more aggressive driving.

[godrifttoday]

Shit and I bought 510!!

[2muchboost]

Glad I went with the 500's with Swift Spring upgrade. Should be interesting with the re-valving and my 11kg Front and 7kg Rear setup. Once the car is on the road I will provide more feedback.

[PoorMans180SX]

Why so much spring in the front?

[2muchboost]

2JZ plus it was setup with daily/drag race in mind. Sat on the phone with the guys at FA going over my entire build and that was the forumula we came up with plus custom valving.

[fliprayzin240sx]

So far, I like my 500s. I cant really enjoy them much on shitty VA roads since I have to pucker up my ass cheeks ever so often when I hit potholes on the freeway, doing 70mph. But in my opinion, I still like Silkroads bestah. Those things are some of the smoothest S14 coilovers I've ever ridden on. I'd put these up there with my Aragostas when they were newer.

[xMOAR LOW S13x]

what is the price of these fine coilovers

[zooopreme]

Originally Posted by xMOAR LOW S13x

what is the price of these fine coilovers

Google still exists in 2013, you know...

[DJ-of-E]

Originally Posted by zooopreme

Google still exists in 2013, you know...

Well 18 years old. Just wait until he realizes it costs as much as half the car.

[Z_Spool]

Originally Posted by DJ-of-E

Well 18 years old. Just wait until he realizes it costs as much as half the car.

trololol... I actually paid less for my S13. (pre-drift tax)

[DJ-of-E]

Originally Posted by Z_Spool

trololol... I actually paid less for my S13. (pre-drift tax)

So darn true. My current S13 was so cheap back in 2002 because everyone still has Hondas in their eyes and before Nissan rolled over their 350z. So cheap that I bought 2 and still cheaper than today just to buy 1 in good condition.

[killer240]

anybody have a review of their 500 series 4 and 510 series 4?
I'm looking to buy a new set of coils

[indytrucks]

Originally Posted by killer240

anybody have a review of their 500 series 4 and 510 series 4?
I'm looking to buy a new set of coils

I have the 500 v4. What do you want to know? So far they are pretty nice. Good build quality, easy instal, valving seems spot on for the 8/6 springs. Only thing I would add is the roller bearings since they do make a little noise sometimes. I am going to do those and swifts eventually just to see what the hype is about. But for the price they are great. I bought them through Import Image Racing on here. Billy is great to order from.

[Nick@Fortune-Auto]

Razi, I wish that you contacted me directly. I would have helped you out. I also quickly skimmed through this thread and read about all of the dyno graphs and comparisons.

A few things to take into consideration:

1. The fortune graphs posted up are not of 240sx shocks

2. The 510 graph posted has way more rebound than most 240's would ever need.

3. The shape of a graph (digressive-ness or linearity) actually do matter.

4. Generation 1-3 was a gentle progression through each generation. The general architecture and materials used were all the same. Just few tweaks here and there were made. Generation 4 shocks made a HUGE leap in advancement with materials used, finishes, coatings, shim stack material, shaft strength, internal materials and jetting consistency.

I am not saying this to just try and be a salesman but comparing a Generation 3 shock to a Generation 4 is like comparing a Motorola flip phone to a iPhone5. Its just that more advanced and robust. We also now use a considerable amount of domestic and European parts in the construction of our shock absorbers.

Here is a breakdown the main new improvements on Gen 4 shocks: I just copied and pasted the wording from our website






Revised Jetting

When the Fortune Auto engineers designed the Generation 4 Series, they made it a priority to revise the jetting for more accurate damper control. The engineers also increased the adjustment range. Every click in the adjustment range now has a very profound effect on damping force and each click is very audible and distinct. We responded to our clients' comments regarding the lack of audible distinction in the clicking mechanism. Our desire is to constantly refine our products using the valuable feedback from our clients, so we have addressed this issue with our Generation 4 shocks.



Stronger Piston Shafts

The data we have compiled through our racing program has been thoroughly implemented in our new Generation 4 Series. The delicate science behind the strength of piston shafts can be difficult to perfect. If the shaft is too hard, it will be brittle and break easily, but if the shaft is too soft it will bend too easily. Through extensive R&D we were able to achieve an optimal balance between shaft hardness and malleability in the Generation 4 Series to ensure peak safety and performance.



Lower Friction Shaft Seals

The new Generation 4 shaft seals have 40% less drag than our previous models. This provides for less hysteresis and for superior control of driver inputs. Our new seals are made of a specially formulated Buna rubber compound that provides a great balance between reliability and performance! Since the shaft seal is the most important seal on the shock, a stronger seal will greatly improve quality and performance.



Improved Shaft Cap Design

Our new shaft caps utilize a twin O-ring design. Furthermore we have upgraded our rubber O-rings to Viton O-rings. The new Viton O-rings are made of a synthetic rubber compound which provides a superior tensile strength and a wider range of operating temperatures. This new design provides a superior seal preventing potential leaks from developing.



Structural Improvements

Utilizing our engineers' in-house design software we were able to revamp our whole line of suspension in the Generation 4 Series. We reinforced brackets and mounting points for more rigidity and strength.



Brake Line Brackets

Now most models will have OEM brake line tabs welded to the lower mounts. This provides the end user with a clean and safe install solution.



Digressive & Ultra Digressive Pistons

To ensure superior ride quality and driver control, the digressive piston technology on our 500 and 510 series has been carried over to the Generation 4 Series as well. All Generation 4 shock absorbers will continue to utilize our digressive piston technology on our 500 series models and ultra digressive piston technology on our 510 series models. Digressive piston technology allows for massive amounts of low speed rebound force that translates driver inputs into razor sharp control. Furthermore, the rebound force "blows off" to provide the driver with a supple and compliant ride while maintaining superior mechanical grip over rough surfaces.



Dyno-tuned and Tested

Our commitment to providing the best shock absorber in the market has not changed with the Generation 4 Series. EVERY shock absorber is still dyno-tested at our facility. We do not spot check our shocks like some other manufacturers. Once your shock absorber is built it is tested and matched. We refuse to treat our shocks with a “one size fits all” mentality. Our philosophy is simple. We provide our clients with a high quality, affordable, and personalized suspension solution.

[Future240]

^Question. I have Gen 1 coils in need of a serious rebuild. When they are rebuilt will it be a hybrid between Gen 1 and 4 or will it be the same coil I bought before?

[Nick@Fortune-Auto]

Also if anyone has any technical questions please feel free to post them up, I would be happy to answer them!

[Nick@Fortune-Auto]

Originally Posted by Future240

^Question. I have Gen 1 coils in need of a serious rebuild. When they are rebuilt will it be a hybrid between Gen 1 and 4 or will it be the same coil I bought before?

It would be basically a generation 1 rebuilt with new seals, new oil etc.
We can not really apply any of the Gen 4 improvements because the architecture / sizing is all different from Gen 1-3