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Tech Talk Technical Discussion About The Nissan 240SX and Nissan Z Cars |
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08-23-2020, 02:52 PM | #391 |
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Has anyone seen how the GM flex fuel tank is setup to keep water out of the tank? Like how they vent it, is there any desiccant?
As the fuel tank empties it must draw air from outside, so there has to be a vent which functions under vacuum to let air in. that air will contain water, so I am wondering how GM is keeping the water out of the fuel tank? Or any special measures in regards to that. I'm trying to figure out how to setup the safety/check valves on a couple fuel tanks, and I just wonder how many check valves are necessary (I won't risk using just 1 pressure check) and where they are (one in the fuel cap, I think?) |
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08-23-2020, 09:55 PM | #392 | |
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You do need to worry about water and fuel in your catch cans, hah.
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10-08-2020, 06:53 PM | #394 | |
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i ran E85 with all stock lines and a stainless inline filter for over a year. unfortunately i sold the car, but i can tell you for sure, get e85 compatible injectors lol....as far as cleaning the tank, yank it out of the car and clean it the old fashioned way. run a hose and some purple power or simple green with a scotchbrite pad. kind of annoying tbh...i just ran a hose and shook the water and simple green solution about 3 times |
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10-08-2020, 07:12 PM | #395 |
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Thanks. I'll give the purple power a go. I've got everything I can reach by hand. Its where the tank gets thin and baffled where theres still crud on the surface. Have you tried any method where you let it soak in something?
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10-09-2020, 11:11 PM | #396 |
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Can someone sanity check this for me:
-Goal: 450-700whp -Engine: s13 sr20det (currently stock internals, will build eventually) -Turbo: GT2871R @20psi -Cams: JWT S3HL -Lines:-8 PTFE feed and return -Filter: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-650100 -Injectors: currently on 1200cc side feeds in stock rail. Should I go larger and top feed? -Pump: Aeromotive 340 E85 in-tank How are people running -8 lines into the s13 tank without a surge tank? Just adapting to the stock fittings? or modifying the lid? Is a 6AN ORB outlet on my FPR going to create a noticeable restriction with -8 feed/return lines and an 8AN fuel rail? Same thing for the flex fuel sensor. It's 6AN in and out. Should I run a 'Y' around the sensor to reduce restriction? Thanks in advance. Last edited by zombiewolf513; 10-10-2020 at 01:08 AM.. |
10-10-2020, 04:42 PM | #397 |
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-8an is massive!
-6an will support hella power. Foolish to runn 8an to just reduce it at multiple sports to 6an. I know its an extra line but any reason noto run dual feeds if ur tryn to push such high hp? Edit from what ive seen/read 6an would flow wayy more then u need... aslong as u have the supply(pump) 6an should be perfect |
10-10-2020, 05:06 PM | #398 | |
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2871r is like 400rwhp range, pushed to its absolute max iirc that is a pump gas 93 octane turbo, will not make use of E85 verily, you can make 400rwhp with a 5/16" hard line using that turbo Actually you can make around 700rwhp using 5/16" fuel line on gasoline with typical in tank fuel pump like Aeromotive stealth. Complicating the fuel system massively with E85 requires a significantly large turbo to take advantage of that fuel quality, maybe two 2871r turbos together and I would consider it. Consider |
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10-10-2020, 06:43 PM | #399 | ||
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The outlet fitting on the radium fpr is the only spot I cant avoid dropping down to a 6AN ORB. I can put a 6AN ORB to 8AN male fitting on it, but its still in a 6AN ORB port. I might just bite the bullet and try the -6 return, first. I found a piece to run 8AN across the flex sensor: https://www.powerhouseracing.com/pro...x-fuel-adapter I have these 1200cc injectors in a stock rail rn, but I'm debating the radium fuel rail, which can allow for 8AN dual feeds, and a switch sooner than later to 2000cc top feeds for future proofing. Looking at the in/out ports on the gas tank, it seems like that is where the real restrictions start (without a surge tank), but maybe I'm off base. Quote:
I'm in at a precarious point in this build where it would be less expensive/ easier to switch to the top feed rail and injectors sooner than later. Do you think I'll have issues running the 2000cc top feeds at lower duty cycles to match my current setup, until I rebuild? |
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10-10-2020, 10:59 PM | #400 |
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Rebuilding has nothing to do with injectors working better
If they won't idle now they won't ever 'idle' but that doesn't really mean anything This is a loaded question, book worthy Usually with such large injectors the engine gets a large cam, which causes a higher idle speed, and orients the engine more towards racing and peak power. Those type of setups can idle at 13:1 for a few minutes then run their race, then shut off. Never run an engine at low speed or low load at rich a/f ratios for very long. If the intention is to drive the car regular, daily, or on the street, then anything as rich as 13's 13:1 will gradually foul the plugs and coat the cylinder/valves/exhaust with carbon coating, which will gradually turn to hard-diamond like and interfere with piston ring function and valve sealing. An engine that needs to idle and drive at low speeds for prolong periods should operate in the 14.5 to 15.2:1 air fuel ratio range with suitable heat range plugs to keep carbon buildup from becoming significant when using gasoline. It is highly unlikely on gasoline with 2000cc injectors to achieve that a/f ratio at low engine speeds. With ethanol at least the on-time can be increased some (more volume flow) but its still dependent... Alcohol tends to have some cleaning effect on engine parts so the richer a/f ratio may not be as much of an issue if running mostly Ethanol content, it depends how well the cylinder is scavenged and how much heating is allowed to take place at low speeds and light loads. Again, race oriented engines have marked advantage because they tend to run hotter (more wide open throttle actions when the engine is running) so less chance to cool down and collect carbon content. what does it depend on? 1. injector quality and design/style 2. ECU injector driver quality (control theory) 3. System & injector voltage 4. manifold and fuel pressure 5. overall control system operation quality The short answer is that most injectors may not open at all, or will open sporadically "sometimes" when the commanded on-time is less than 2ms total (or 1ms + 1ms delay) at say 14volts. The best injectors in the world may find it difficult to command fewer than 1.75~ms range on-time total. The long answer is that due to the myriad factors which influence the ability of an injector to precisely open and control it's fuel volume flow, a good engine tuner with experience can often squeeze a better result from a fairly quality injector with enough fussing around and by making sacrifices such as higher idle speed than desired, lower fuel pressure, living with random misfires, paying more for better injectors, measuring frequency response to find suitable delay breakpoints given the memory capacity of the ECU, adjusting injector phase or cam overlap which will allow fuel to 'escape'(misplaced/wasted fuel) before it can reach or stay nside the cylinder, etc... anything to help low speed operation hold a reasonable 14 to 15:1 air fuel ratio even if it means giving up fuel economy or engine smoothness or idle quality. And finally a word about fuel system. If you have significant racing plans then I can understand the need for surge and aux fueling with external pumps etc... I guess.... However just be aware that there is probably a single, in-tank pump out there which can support your power goals 700rwhp Etoh by it self if placed inside a normal fuel tank with appropriate fittings and pickup. Eliminating all that other mess. My personal view is to keep something simple as possible, and quiet if possible, and a single in-tank submerged pump is adequate for nearly all situations... And keep in mind the return line only "works" when the engine doesn't need fuel. in other words, when the engine's fuel demand is very high, there will be very little fuel in the return line, or none at all for example. So tuning the engine at higher fuel pressures due to inadequate return line size is an idle/low speed issue, not a performance issue or WOT issue. It may make the vehicle difficult to lean out at low speeds, even more so, but it won't interfere with making peak power. |
10-12-2020, 07:44 PM | #403 |
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10-12-2020, 08:26 PM | #404 | ||
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10-14-2020, 12:15 PM | #405 |
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lol WUT. The increased octane and knock resistance of E85 means you can always make more power than on pump 93. Why are you classifying turbos by gas type? There isn't a turbo car in the world that won't make more power and torque on E85 vs pump gas if tuned properly.
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10-14-2020, 12:39 PM | #406 | |
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i agree E85 will allow for more timing to be added (producing more power) than pump in most situations, but the increase with a gt2871 when using E85 compared to pump fuel is small compared to a bigger turbo, which will see a much larger increase in max timing advance (torque) when comparing pump and E85 fuels. this concept is know as minimum base timing (MBT) for best torque and is how you tune. this is also why if you tune using a proper dyno it doseent matter what gear you tune in, its a matter of hitting the right cells on the map and tuning those cells for MBT. |
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10-15-2020, 06:03 AM | #407 | |
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10-19-2020, 12:02 PM | #408 |
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I've been trying to "future proof" my current build so that i'll be able to run flex fuel/e85 when it's done.
Currently putting together an S15 sr20det, 2871R turbo. I just installed the Radium fuel rail with new ID1300xds injectors. The plan is to go with the Link S15X G4x plug and play ecu, with an ethanol content sensor (conti/gm). Think i'll have any issues controlling idle on pump 91 with these new 1300cc injectors? They're supposed to have really good control for low duty cycle. I really only plan on running e85 at the track and 91 when driving the car around otherwise. It's not available at every station so i'd probably order a barrel of Ignite to keep in the garage or in cans. |
10-19-2020, 12:04 PM | #409 | |
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10-19-2020, 05:17 PM | #410 | |
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All engine can gain power from E85. But with E85 comes many new risks and challenges. Therefore it is a risk/reward fuel, and for one to really 'make good use' of that fuel, the gains should be significant. Now this is where your opinion is as valid as mine. For you, maybe 30hp is significant. Maybe 50hp is significant. To me, 50hp is not worth using E85. The hassles of containing, storage, filtration, and cost, doesn't worth the benefit of 30-50hp IMO. In my application (V8 turbo) for example, Switching from pump to E85 is worth around 400 to 500hp for me. THAT is significant for me. THAT is the only way I would even consider E85. Somebody using a single 2871r turbo in a 2L application can not 'significantly' gain enough to be worth the hassles of E85, IMHO, is what I am saying. 50hp even 100hp I don't think it worth. Now, 300hp or 500hp, sure sign me up. The same thing we can say about engine displacement, going from 2L to 3L for example I can get 200HP or 300HP Extra using a stock 3L over stock 2L (700hp instead of 450hp). But going from 3L to say 6L I only get an extra 300HP again(1000hp over 700hp), was it worth? To some, yes. For others, they would rather keep the 3L engine stock, more efficient. |
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10-22-2020, 01:46 PM | #411 |
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Maybe instead of considering only power numbers, consider the benefits of e85 on that same 2L 2871r engine when drifting all day. Detonation protection, cooler temperatures, etc. It's not ALL about power.
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10-25-2020, 06:24 PM | #412 | |
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First, detonation protection and cooler temperatures, that is a misnomer. And not only because both of those attributes tend to lead to increased power (cooler temps and detonation protection = more power is available). So it's like saying "don't just focus on the power... consider the other benefits such as more power". For the 2871r at 2L (and even larger turbochagers), there is no detonation protection using E85 over 93 octane in gasoline friendly settings, if the engine is healthy, because any SR20 can max those size range turbo without detonating on either fuel. So what exactly are we protecting it from? Bad gas? E85 is more likely to 'go bad' than 93 octane, plus, the engine is far more likely to suffer an instance of clogged filter or clogged injectors and subsequent melt-down due to insufficient E85 maintenance-related aspects. The cost and potential for failure using E85 in any situation where gasoline would also be appropriate isn't worth the risk without significant power gain to be had. Now, we both will argue that an engine being used in a race/drift situation would be far more likely to suffer catastrophic failure on 93 octane due to temperature related issues, and that IS true, no matter what kind of engine or power or towing is involved. However, 93 gasoline has NO PLACE in racing situations in the first place, so the point is moot. It's like arguing that not having a disease is better than having a disease, well yeah of course it is, for everybody in the world. The IDEA of the fuel is great in theory; but the risk of using it and understanding how to maintain it is the issue some struggle with (I do, for long term storage and usage). In other words, gasoline is an economy fuel, the only reason to ever use gasoline is to save money, achieve distance/$$, which is not important in racing unless you are unable to re-fill the fuel for some reason. Saving money has no place in racing events, if you know what I mean. Nobody should push a race car to the limit in an actual event using gasoline, unless it was some kind of rule that one must use gasoline, in which case E85 is off the table anyways. So what we really need to try and understand is the benefits per application, and the necessity of using Alcohol as a fuel when appropriate, regardless of the power potential, and compare that with the cost of setting it up to be used effectively in applications where gasoline might suffice as an economical alternative. I.e. proper filtration, alcohol content adjustability (flex fuel is a requirement) which usually means a stand-alone is necessary. Plus the increase capacity of the fuel system (lines, pumps, filters) and knowledge of how to care for Alcohol and how to test it or be aware of it's condition at all times. There is alot of cost and maintenance associated with using Alcohol for long periods in high flow situations where the sheer volume of Ethanol being sourced means that much more filtration is taking place (more than say, a regular truck would use/filter). Iirc aeromotive recommends cleaning the fuel filters every 10 run hours or something like that when using E85 for example. So using it in say, a daily driver application with moderate to low power (150-180hp/liter < 4L), is purely based on preference, budget, willingness to tackle the maintenance issues, since the engine would be safe with EITHER fuel when properly supported and tuned, at which point we should ask ourselves (I would) is the fuel really worth all that hassle? For say 200hp+ (200hp/L+ displacement >4L) I would admit the extra power is the driving factor there to me. But for 20 or 50hp just isn't worth the trouble and cost of stand-alone and all that extra plumbing and maintenance at any displacement for cars that sit in traffic and need to be reliable (gasoline acceptable applications). |
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10-26-2020, 06:31 AM | #413 |
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There you go again, arguing your opinions as facts.
"93 has no place in racing applications"... Are you just ignoring the fact that 95% of enthusiasts use premium pump gas at track events? Not everyone wants to constantly mix up batches or purchase and transport barrels of high-octane racing fuel for events. It's enough of a PITA to fill up a bunch of E85 canisters the day of the race, as there's rarely a station close to the track that carries it. There is absolutely increased detonation protection when using E85. If you were to tune a car on pump gas, then fill the tank with E85 and retune for proper air/fuel, the car would make roughly the same power but have loads of safety margin. You might even need a bit more timing to make the same power as on pump. You don't have to take advantage of the additional octane and latent heat of evaporation for power production and use it as a safe zone. Yes of course there is the pros/cons list of more fuel usage and the need for nitrile rubber everywhere etc, but you can't say that it's not a safer fuel to make power with when it comes to actual combustion.
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10-26-2020, 06:46 AM | #414 | |
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E85/Alcohol is superior in every aspect to 93 octane gasoline and equally as available. Therefore, gasoline has no place in racing when E85 is available. This is not an opinion, merely an obvious inference. Only a fool would use gasoline when Ethanol or similar fuel is available. The same can be said for towing, or any duty application. Some people like to eat fried chicken and some tan in the sun, but that doesn't mean those things belong on the menu. To someone well versed in biology its pretty obvious when one should avoid certain things, you need to 'see' beyond personal preference for taste and color. Avoiding sun and fried chicken is a PITA but it might help you live longer. As to safety margin, a miss is as good as a mile. A clean running gasoline engine is no less safe than a clean running ethanol engine. It makes no difference. Again, not an opinion. I know of at least two(hundred million) engines that used gasoline for more than 200,000 miles without issue. If you know what you are doing and understand the limitations of the fuel you are using then there is no need for additional safety margin unless you are willing to cope with the additional cost (as many decide to use racing fuel on race days, this happens quite a lot) as a matter of fact |
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10-26-2020, 07:18 AM | #415 |
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As anyone knows that has done a moderate amount of racing, shit happens. One of the most common things is overheating, and then detonation as a result. On E85, the car has less EGT and will withstand more temperature rise without detonation than pump gas. Sure, if everything was perfect then there's no difference, but if we're talking about shit getting hotter than it should, the E85 car is indeed more tolerant of temperature.
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10-26-2020, 04:14 PM | #417 |
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You know not every state has 93 at the pumps right? Arizona barely has 91 at most pumps... I don't trust 91 on anything more than a bolt on SR making maybe 300hp.
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10-28-2020, 03:20 AM | #419 | ||
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And why I said "a miss is as good as a mile" The gasoline argument holds up as long as it's a miss. it's like I said "gasoline vs ethanol makes no difference as long as the engine doesn't violently explode" and you responded with "but what if the engine violently explodes" I mean... its in there... I would never say something without covering every possible rejoinder/remark... because I know how internet people be Quote:
In other words, you can always have alcohol shipped to you, no matter where you live. With enough money or desire (distillery) You can have ethanol anywhere, in any state, as much as you want. With enough cash you can have a guy follow you with a tanker and supply unlimited Alcohol. You can make it yourself or buy it and have it shipped. But not everybody can afford that (I sure can't). Thus, the only reason to use gasoline is to avoid spending the extra money on procuring the ethanol. 'Real' racing is a place where spending money without any limit is basically the first requirement, anybody who is racing will be using the highest quality fuel/tires/etc... by definition as a necessity to out compete all other teams and win the prize. Which takes gasoline and cheap tires off the table. Also gasoline does not impose any limit on power. 300, 500, 800hp it doesn't matter. The limitation is more about temperature... If the engine is built properly and the person tuning it knows what to do you can make incredible power. I've seen 650rwhp at 2.0L with 93 octane fuel from 4g63 for example. |
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10-28-2020, 03:34 AM | #420 |
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Ethanol is a very powerful solvent, sterilizing, cleaning agent. And S14 fuel tanks are very old.
Imagine you have a 20 year old fuel tank and pour in a very powerful cleaning agent for the first time in 20 years. Do you realllyy want to run a fuel system right after you pour in the cleaning solution? As you should be able to imagine, when you put in the alcohol, it will probably solubize (soluabize? solubilityize...) It will probably dissolve all manner of filth from the tank and pull that into solution. Thus I believe you will be setting yourself up for a crazy amount of fuel system failure... clogged filters, ruined pumps, who knows what will happen next. The other issue is, even if the tank is unaffected itself, there are many items inside fuel tanks which were never expected to come into contact with high concentration Alcohol. Maybe some metal piece or foreign O-ring materials, or maybe some low quality plastic with poor seals, who knows what. You put that Alcohol into a tank without going over/through every single submerged item is asking for big trouble. The only way I would put alcohol fuel in my S14 tank is if I removed it first, completely empty it out, then wash and clean it spotless like new. And remove everything from it and inspect those things and verify they are alcohol friendly (perhaps by submerging them in a bottle of alcohol on the kitchen table for a while... or something like that). It's just my way of being absolutely sure... because a fuel system failure is no joke. Thousands of dollars in repeat spending and the chance of a double failure when you forgot to clean or replace just one thing. Probably the only way I Would use alcohol fuel is by installing a fuel cell and strict return system for that cell to contain the alcohol away from my factory tank. IMO IMO Finally I am worried about the factory flaw in S14 fuel tanks, you know the one where they start to leak? I am worried that the only thing holding mine together is the gunk on the bottom of the tank (ha-ha??). Be very careful because alcohol is powerful and will strip, clean, and potentially corrode (as it will gradually pull in water) many things... unexpectedly... better just to drink alcohol instead usually |
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