Datsun L series into S13 swap?

[shinrekka]

Anyone have any idea about swapping in an L series engine? Theres plenty of L28ET's out there. I have helped swap an L28ET into a 240Z and I know the wiring will be a peice of cake.

Anyone know if the L series engines share the same mounts as any of the RB series engines.

[PoorMans180SX]

AH! why would you want to do that?

[drift freaq]

^^^^^^^ Ditto, the L28 is ancient on technology side, besides being an absolute dog of engine. I.E. revs to 5-5500k max. No power above that unless built for full race.
It does not use the same mounts as the RB series the RB series.It is an actual descendant of the L series and is a so much superior engine, it puts the L series to shame.
In other words putting a L series engine in our cars is a complete waste of time and thought.

[harlockssx]

I think there was one on Freshalloy a few months ago...he did it since the motor was free & it was much better than the stock KA, a LOT more usable power for a daily driver. Ancient technlogy? What do you call most V-8s out there? The old L-motor is pretty much bulletproof!

[drew935]

yes the L series is ancient. Sidedrafts or carbs on any car nowadays is not modern unless used for racing...It's not like you can buy a L series crate engine, making it ancient and plus it was made like 30 yrs ago...ok, it's like the oldies.

[shinrekka]

1983 L28ET, its turbo, its feul injected, and its got great potential. I had a 78 280z and i loved the way it drove. It was easy to work on and it didnt take much work to make that car fly. My friend has a 3.0 (or was it 3.3? litre stroker 304hp to the wheels. Not bad at all for all motor. Im not looking for that much HP. I'd be happy with 250 to the crank. Even less would be fine. Just looking to do something a little different. L series inline 6's are great engines. It may be ancient but there are tons of parts available and I could always rebuild it. And yes there are crate engines available.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

^^^^^^^ Ditto, the L28 is ancient on technology side, besides being an absolute dog of engine. I.E. revs to 5-5500k max. No power above that unless built for full race.

I believe the reason for it's short rev and horrible HP output is due to somewhat of it's larger stroke than the RB. As far as low end is concerned the L28 is far more superior than that of an RB 25/26det if you look at comparisons between the 2 engines below 3000RPM torque curve. It defenitely isn't a high rever as much as the RB, which I believe the RB makes great power up to about 6500RPM.
What is the down fall to the L series is that it is seriously outdated. I recently had to go shopping for parts for an L28 for a buddy of mine for his 240z, the parts are defenitely not around like they use to be and as age and condition of the L28s progress the condition of the heads become worse as well.
Another problem that the Lseries had lack of which was a major down fall to making HP was the fact the L28 head does not use a cross flow design, nore does it use a pentroof design so lack there of making a decent flame front isn't there either. Having the induction system above the headers also causes vapor lock which can infact be a serious problem, and strapping a turbo to it only causes greater heat under the hood.
In my opinion Drift freak is right about the RB being upto date, and having well enough high rev for an inline 6. Parts for the RB are far more abundant an the technology is far more superior, and it would increase the resale value of your car which the L28 defenitely would not.
If the thread starter wants an Lseries, just keep the KA since that is what it is, and the rev on the KA is far superior to that of the L28. (Which I have infact gone up against my friends NA L28 240z VS my NA 240sx KA24de, and for the 240z to have a lighter chassis than the 240sx, and for me to walk the 240z on the track every time, I would put my money on that the KA is far more superior to the older and outdated L28.)

[shinrekka]

Just wonderin, I could score the motor for free right now if i want to. Cheaper then a CA18.

[drift freaq]

you are correct Vinnie, Also the RB actually will rev right to 7500 rpm without breaking a sweat and has power pretty much all the way up rev band to redline. When I dynoed mine its HP curve did not start to drop off till right around 6900 rpm. That was at 5-6lbs of boost putting down 239whp. It has a nice broad flat power band. Turbo lag? no such thing. It may be a little down on torque in the under 3k range compared to a L28 but it is still very torquey down there and has a mid range and top end to die for.
Vinnie is also right about the KA being another descendant of the L series the 4 cylinder L series engines. Lets just say its the most stroked out 4 cylinder series.
Like I said earlier the L28 is waste of time. In fact this whole thread is pratically a repost from around 4 months ago.

P.S. if you can get the motor for free, then pick it up and sell it to some z car guy. Use the money towards doing something to your KA or saving for a RB or SR. You would be much better off in the end.

[shinrekka]

its a repost of what i posted 4 months ago and no one realy answered me then either. Im not looking for why I shouldnt do it. Im looking for tips on how to do it.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

That was at 5-6lbs of boost putting down 239whp. It has a nice broad flat power band. Turbo lag? no such thing. It may be a little down on torque in the under 3k range compared to a L28 but it is still very torquey down there and has a mid range and top end to die for.

There is also a misconception in the term (TURBO LAG). Basically it isn't lag it is just indirect power loss that is made from back pressure from the turbo until manifold pressure becomes greater than the pressure or resistance that comes from what takes energy to allow the turbo to spool. Jon Knight of boost head actually calculated that the loss from turbo charging has a greater inneffeciency than that from super charging. Inline sixies overall will feel less of what people call lag since 6 cylinders are more effecient than the lag that is provided from an inline 4 such as the SR, KA, or CA.

Originally Posted by Jon Knight

THE FORMULA FOR THAT IS {[(CID X RPM/2) X PSI] /396,000} % IN/EX PRESSURE RATIO. SO LETS DO SOME MATH.

180CID X 6000RPM/2 X 10 PSI/396,000 /1:2.7. THIS MEANS WE ARE LOSING 35HP TO BACKPRESSURE. NOW WE LOOK AT AN SC. THERE IS NO PRESSURE AFTER COMBUSTION, SO WE ADD THIS POWER TO THE FORMULA.
180 X 6000 X 10/2 /396,000. SO WE GAIN 13HP JUST FROM THAT. SO NOW WE MUST CALCULATE THE ADDITIONAL HP LOSSES FROM SPINNING THE SC.
PSI X CFM /229/AE OF SUPERCHARGER. 450CFM X 10 PSI / 229 /70% AE = 28 HP + 2HP BELT FRICTION LOSSES. SO WE HAVE A 30HP CRANK POWER LOSS WITH THE SC, BUT WE SUBTRACT 13HP FROM THE INTAKE STROKE PISTON PUSH WHICH MEANS THE SC ONLY USES A NET 17 CRANK HP. THE TURBO LOSES 35HP-13HP, OR 22HP TO BACKPRESSURE. SO WHY DO TURBOS MAKE MORE POWER? USUALLY BECAUSE THEY ARE INTERCOOLED WHICH RAISES THE AE, AND USUALLY BECAUSE THEY RUN HIGHER BOOST.

[theicecreamdan]

I don't have any trouble with the term "turbo lag"

You have a turbo and at lower RPM you are waiting for the power to "kick in"
wait = lag
the wait is caused because the turbo creates an inefficiency at low rpm.

wait caused by turbo = turbo lag

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by shinrekka

its a repost of what i posted 4 months ago and no one realy answered me then either. Im not looking for why I shouldnt do it. Im looking for tips on how to do it.

That's our point. it's not worth it. The L28ET is heavy, old, ugly, power-bound from a crappy port design, and would probably require custom mounts.

Do what he said, get the engine and sell it to some Z guy that needs one.

[racer98]

Originally Posted by Turbo711

AH! why would you want to do that?

OMG X's 1k .


The food stamp motor !

[shinrekka]

like i said, im not interested in hearing why i shouldnt do it, but any info on actually doing it. It had to of been done already. Everything else has.

[racer98]

Originally Posted by shinrekka

like i said, im not interested in hearing why i shouldnt do it, but any info on actually doing it. It had to of been done already. Everything else has.

so, yes it has been done but you want to spend $20K parts labor and bs and all of the time it will take to get it too the power of an Rb26 motor ?

yes its all about being different. Dont need approval from zilvia to do a swap that intrests you.

[racer98]

yes the L31 was put into an R32 car and was in one of the books

[!Zar!]

If a l28 swap was such a great idea, it would be more common now wouldn't it?

For the time and effort it would take just to get it in, it's worthless.

Why don't you just turbo your ka?

I'm sure you would enjoy that alot more.

Unless you want hard parking bragging rights.

[HyperTek]

heavyness.com

[shinrekka]

Originally Posted by racer98

so, yes it has been done but you want to spend $20K parts labor and bs and all of the time it will take to get it too the power of an Rb26 motor ?

yes its all about being different. Dont need approval from zilvia to do a swap that intrests you.

I find it hard to beleive it would cost 20grand for custom motor mounts and driveshaft. The KA transmission can be used as well.

I dont want the power of an RB26. I want something different. Something I would enjoy driving. I loved driving my 280Z. I love driving my 240sx. I could combine the 2 and have the perfect car for myself. My Z has been far more reliable then any of my KA powered car. Maybe thats just my luck, but I dont want the KA anymore.

If any of you are ever in town, you should check out Z1 motor sports. 600hp 280ZX, its the owners car. It didnt have as much work into as i thought it would of either. That cost around 7k to build. I'd be more then happy with 250hp to the crank. Easily done with an intercooler, boost controller, and exhaust.


When the RB20 first came out, people in japan were swapping it out for the L28et, now if i could find some research on those old skylines it could help me out a little.

[!Zar!]

You'll need custom motor mounts, custom driveshaft, custom trannty mounts. Start measuring and have fun.

[corwin]

How about instead of bashing his decision, you actually give him USEFUL INFORMATION. You think it'd cost 20k to swap an L28ET into an s13? Dead wrong. A guy from zcar.com has done the swap, and it cost him less than 2k.

And FYI, you can build up an L28ET to 400hp easily.

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by shinrekka

I find it hard to beleive it would cost 20grand for custom motor mounts and driveshaft. The KA transmission can be used as well.

I dont want the power of an RB26. I want something different. Something I would enjoy driving. I loved driving my 280Z. I love driving my 240sx. I could combine the 2 and have the perfect car for myself. My Z has been far more reliable then any of my KA powered car. Maybe thats just my luck, but I dont want the KA anymore.

If any of you are ever in town, you should check out Z1 motor sports. 600hp 280ZX, its the owners car. It didnt have as much work into as i thought it would of either. That cost around 7k to build. I'd be more then happy with 250hp to the crank. Easily done with an intercooler, boost controller, and exhaust.


When the RB20 first came out, people in japan were swapping it out for the L28et, now if i could find some research on those old skylines it could help me out a little.

Ok, you seem to miss a lot of our points and we are trying to help you here.
1. L28 as it came in the U.S. was a stop gap engine. It was originally installed in the 280Z because the cars had become heavier due to federal crash safety standards. Considering it only had 20hp more than a L24 and did not rev it was a dog engine.
2. Yes high HP L28's have been built at some expense and drivability.
3. There is a reason Paul Newman decided to build a V8 Z car for racing in the GT prototype class. It was called the L28.
4. Enough about past facts, Your KA is capable of the same kind of numbers actually even greater numbers Turbo charged than the L28ET.
5. The L28 is heavier and has no real performance advantages.
6. It is expensive to get parts at this time for older L series engines due to their age and dwindling stock.
7. There are so many other engine options to go with why even bother with this?
8. The KA is and can be a very reliable engine properly taken care of.
9. Do not base your opinion of a KA off of the couple of most likely ill treated ones you have come across.
10. L28's are old you will need to rebuild one.
After expenses for that you could probably wind up spending the same amount of for a Turbo KA or a RB clip.
Oh yes and in reference to your comment about the reason people in Japan were swapping L28's into earlier skylines in Japan and in place of RB20's was one reason and solely one reason. The S series that came in 70's GTR's and the FJ20 that came in 80's GTR's as well as RB20's in the new R32 GTST's were quite expensive engines even in Japan to purchase. S series and FJ series =rare, low numbers made, hard to find. RB20? Brand new engine not a lot of performance stuff right at the time. People had built L28's sitting around so they stuck them in. Does it mean it was logical? No, it was just one of the crazy mod things Japanese have a tendacy to do.
Are you Japanese? Do you live in Japan, is it 1988 and L28's are all over the place in great shape? No.
Like I said in the beginning we are trying to help you see the light here.
If you want to do it, do it. Don't expect lots of info on it here though or pretty much anywhere in the states. No one has bothered to waste their time doing it.
Good luck.

[TheSnail]

It will bolt in if you use an r32 crossmember and rb20 mounts. You use the stock 240sx tranny mount that bolts strait to the L series tranny. The drive shaft, you will use the stock 240sx one. The only thing Im not to sure on is the front sump oil pan and pickup. Search on the net to see if you could find an L series that comes with a front sump.

[TheSnail]

Actualy thinking about it, you use the stock L28 mounts and not the rb20 mounts, though you will still need the r32 crossmember and 240sx tranny mount.

[shinrekka]

Thanks to Corwin and The snail who have actually helped me. This is the message i received from corwin. In case anyone in the future would like to do this swap im going to post it here.

You know, this is why I really hate this board, you put out an idea, and everyone starts screaming its shit because its not SR or RB. Hell, anyone who has driven an S30 knows what an L28 can do.

Anyways, if you hit up the zcar.com forums, a guy named Pallnet has done the swap already and put up a lot of documentation on it. He also makes custom fuel rails and other shit. Heres some links you'll need for the info. (I plan on doing this swap myself eventually =)

http://www.atlanticz.ca/zclub/techti...all/index.html
For using the 240sx tranny with the L28

http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?...81028&t=281028
http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?...1#reply_278298
http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?...3#reply_277956
http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?...1#reply_277902
http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?...4#reply_270201
http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?...4#reply_269496
http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?...7#reply_266584
http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?...8#reply_265121
http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?...6#reply_260561
http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?...86956&t=286956

This is also what he said to me over e-mail:
Go to Blue's links and you will find that he's gathered up as much info on
the swap as possible (The first link I gave you about the tranny swap).
I will give you everything here so that you have an idea what you're looking
at.
Parts needed:
1) 240SX or Z31 N/A tranny. I recomend 240SX cause the engines have "0"
torque which means a good tranny.
2) 240Z-280ZX "A" or "B" box bellhousing. You have to shave the countershaft
boss. You will find pics on Blues site. You can swap over the Z countershaft
bearing and it will be fine that way. If you use the SX countershaft bearing
then you have to have the hole in the Z bellhousing opened up and that cost
a few bucks.
3) A universal GM tranny mount. It will replace the stock Z tranny mount.
You have to bolong the hole in the tranny X-member but the GM mount makes
for an easier install.
4) A custom length DS. Have it made from scratch with new parts ($300.00) or
use a 240Z DS to make it from for about $150.00
5) Use the shift fork, collar and clutch setup from your current tranny
unless you're upgrading.

The the shifter sits an inch or so back but still fits the car. You can't
tell once you put the car back together. The "C" box trannys have more
syncros so the shifting is smoother. You will want a 4:11 or 3:90 rear for
N/A cause of the gearing of the SX tranny.

Good luck......

Hope this gives you all the info you'll need. go inquire over at zcar, or probably even hybridz.com

Lucas

[DatsunZ]

You guys are forgetting how cheap an L28ET can be had, you can get a whole 280ZXT for a fraction of what you pay for a KA-T kit or an imported DET engine. They make 180hp/203ft-lbs stock on an unintercooled 6psi, 7.4:1 compression ratio, and ancient EFI technology. 300 is easy with an intercooler and some tweaking of the old EFI. These engines are very stout, they stand up to all kinds of a abuse. As far as weight goes, doesnt weigh any more than an RB20DET.

And if you think RB parts are easier to find than l-series parts in the US, l-series parts are available at chain stores like advance and autozone RB parts arent.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by DatsunZ

They make 180hp/203ft-lbs stock on an unintercooled 6psi, 7.4:1 compression ratio, and ancient EFI technology. 300 is easy with an intercooler and some tweaking of the old EFI.

O.K now lets compare to a naturally aspirated VG30e or VG33e.
I happen to have a naturally aspirated VG33e in my frontier, no turbo charging, or super charging and the engine makes 180HP,220FT/LB.s of torque.
Those old L28ets are worthless and archaic and due to DOT and EPA approval back then it ran like crap just like the NAPSZ series of engines (with hemispherical low flame front heads) that 7.4:1 compression is horrible for making any kind of substantial power(if anything you would want to stay between 8:5~9:0CR) , if you want to go cheap hell why not a VG platform. The VG outsurpassed the Lseries and was made for over 20years before Renault discontinued the engine in 2004.
Also remember the RB engine has less displacement and still makes more power than an L28et on 6PSI. Hell why not an old school sohc KA, I've seen them push over 200HP on 7PSI without intercooling(SOHC KA'S ARE CHEAP TOO).
L28's are crap, I mean in all reality if Nissan continued to produce it along with technology it could of been a great engine. Even a cross flow head would of made it better which they did do in Japan for 2 years called the LZ head, but you won't see it in the U.S or the dimequarterly and it was very RARE.
Good luck though I have seen mad scientist engineers cut, seperate, and weld 2 KA head pieces to make it fit onto the L28, with custom cams, I would say thats the only way to get it up to date on serious power issues.

Cough,cough, snicker....Looked through my archives and found the O.S Giken DOHC head kits.....All of which are discontinued for every L series........
http://www.datrats.com.au/OS%20TWIN%20CAMS.pdf

[shinrekka]

300hp can be made easily. Its cheap, can be swapped easily. So what if the design isnt to good. 300hp is 300hp. Plenty of torque to go along with it. Not only that, saying you have something different that hundreds of people dont have.

As a matter of fact I think I may run all motor with the L28 and run some nice carbs in my S13. Now thats different.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by shinrekka

So what if the design isnt to good. 300hp is 300hp.

Design is everything...You will blow the headgasket at 300HP, no joke...