Team Zimmerman Vs Team Martin?

[Matej]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Soundz lyke uz our profying me.

I'm well aware of the difference between Rodney Daingerfield and Rodney King.

After Rodney King got beat up, 30 white people were murdered during the LA riots just for the color of their skin.

Originally Posted by ineedone

We should all start posting random charts and graphs.

[xilovelsdx]

Lol I read an article on yahoo today by Pat Buchanan talking about this stat and how there is literally no cases of white men raping black women. Racial profiling obviously holds no weight.

[ineedone]

Sorry Zilvia. I give up. I will only respond to legal questions. Racist rants... eh, not my interest. Anyone who wants to ask/question where my legal analysis is wrong I am willing to address.

[imotion s14]

George Zimmerman is a criminal mastermind because he attended criminal justice class at a community college.

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Also, I love your source. Bias much? Above the Law: A Legal Web Site – News, Commentary, and Opinions on Law Firms, Lawyers, Law Schools, Law Suits, Judges and Courts + Career Resources

I'd like to see their data source - I'd also like to understand how you can have a "negative" percentage. Does that mean people that don't even claim SYG get convicted?

First, ATL is awesome. They are completely biased in every way possible. However, it goes both ways. They have commentators who clerked for the most conservative federal judges to ultra liberals who think animals should have more rights than humans.

The chart is not from ATL - sadly (not sure why I have to point this out to you). It was made by a Senior Fellow at the Urban Institute. His name is John Roman - he is smart he has degrees to prove it. The data he used to create that chart was from the FBI and local law enforcement.

The numbers below require little explanation. Drawing from Supplemental Homicide Reports (SHR) submitted by local law enforcement to the FBI between 2005 and 2010, we see that in cases with a white shooter and a white victim, the shooting is ruled to be justified less than 2 percent of the time. If the shooter is black and the victim is white, the rate of justifiable homicide rulings drops to almost 1 percent. However, if the shooter is white and the victim is black, it is ruled justified in 9.5 percent of cases in non-Stand Your Ground (SYG) states. In SYG states, the rate is even higher—almost 17 percent.

Now consider the situation that occurred in the Zimmerman case (and I note that none of these facts are in dispute). When there is a homicide with one shooter and one victim who are strangers, neither is law enforcement, and a firearm is used to kill, a little less than 3 percent of black-on-white homicides are ruled to be justified. When the races are reversed, the percentage of cases that are ruled to be justified climbs to more than 29 percent in non-SYG states and almost 36 percent in SYG states.

The one gap in the SHR data is the setting where the homicide occurred. If it turns out that almost all the white-on-black homicides occur in residences or businesses and almost all the black-on-white homicides happen on the street, then perhaps there is no racial animus. But if you look through data compiled by the Tampa Bay Tribune on cases in which a SYG defense was used, you do not see much of a difference in setting. Some may think that white-on-black shootings are justified more often because it involves the black person as an intruder while black-on-white shootings happen in different scenarios. This is not the case. Black-on-white shootings also occur in the shooter’s home.

I appreciate your suggestion that I watch CSI to learn how real cases get investigated and solved. Ill make sure to pass that tip along next time I have a criminal case... you know, because all that law school and passing the bar stuff is not what qualifies one to practice law... no not that... Just marathon sessions of CSI.

Protip - If you ever want to get thrown off a jury, tell them you learned about the justice system through CSI.

Originally Posted by godsmack

Why should he have been placed under arrest when the cops got there? He shot someone in self defense and there was no evidence that would've proved otherwise as he did everything that he should've being on night watch. He place the 911 call followed and then got attacked.

I agree that it sucks that someone died as a result but this is the reason that we are allowed to carry firearms. You can die from ground and pound. The funny ppl with mma experience should really know that. It's in the waivers that you sign since you can recieve massive brain trauma from it.

For the sake of argument I will accept the story Zimmerman said. However, I still believe that if someone shoots another person they should be arrested and it should be investigated as a homicide.

Police officers are given legal authority to use lethal force in doing their job. If they shoot someone they are immediately placed on administrative leave and the incident is investigated. I do not see the problem with requiring that of citizens. Especially when the homicide only has 2 witnesses 1 of which is dead and can not tell their side.

Now, to address the MMA issue. I agree, if you get punched the head enough it can do major damage. Do you really think that someone with just a barely broken nose (his nose looked fine at trial, not crooked or anything) and some minor bruises is getting punched enough to think they are going to die? The standard that Florida is setting is that if you get into a fight, for any reason, and you are losing that fight - you can escalate, pull a gun, and kill that person. That is sketchy stuff.

Originally Posted by Phlip

You are an idiot, I am having a hard time believing you are not a bigot and you can't spell.

Dude, this guy is beyond bigot. Full blown Towson White Student Union, Stormfront card carrying member man.

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by Matej

After Rodney King got beat up, 30 white people were murdered during the LA riots just for the color of their skin.



We should all start posting random charts and graphs.

Did you mean to post a graph from www.davidduke.com??? You do realize he is a full blown Klan member right?

Please tell me that was a joke...

[imotion s14]

So it's hosted by David Duke.. does it mean it's original source is not factual?

Because I did a quick google search for the source and found it literally within seconds.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/c...ous/cvus42.pdf

I hope you're just a law student or arm-chair lawyer with a law background and not someone who is actually practicing law. I'd be terrified if that was the case.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by ineedone

First, ATL is awesome. They are completely biased in every way possible. However, it goes both ways. They have commentators who clerked for the most conservative federal judges to ultra liberals who think animals should have more rights than humans.

Opinions, Assholes - you know how it goes.

Originally Posted by ineedone

The chart is not from ATL - sadly (not sure why I have to point this out to you). It was made by a Senior Fellow at the Urban Institute. His name is John Roman - he is smart he has degrees to prove it. The data he used to create that chart was from the FBI and local law enforcement.

A, proof?
B, thats where it's linked from
C, so having a degree from god knows where makes you smart?
D, Urban Institute - yeah, I smell unbiased research there.
E,

Originally Posted by ineedone

I appreciate your suggestion that I watch CSI to learn how real cases get investigated and solved. Ill make sure to pass that tip along next time I have a criminal case... you know, because all that law school and passing the bar stuff is not what qualifies one to practice law... no not that... Just marathon sessions of CSI.

Protip - If you ever want to get thrown off a jury, tell them you learned about the justice system through CSI.

Wow, lets whip out the "claimed" education/professional dicks. First off, I'm glad you are so ignorant/self absorbed that you failed to catch some tonge-in-cheek humor.

Second, for someone claiming to be a pro, you sure down act or sound like it. You fail to understand hour the prosecution could not create a time-line based off facts illustrating GZ was guilty of Murder 2 and you are stuck on the "well he can pass for white, so the white racists let him off".

Originally Posted by ineedone

For the sake of argument I will accept the story Zimmerman said. However, I still believe that if someone shoots another person they should be arrested and it should be investigated as a homicide.

You then realize you would be giving them an arrest record, correct? So a girl is getting gang raped, she shoots one of them, the others escape... you would have her arrested, lose her right to cary a concealed weapon, forced to pay bail and then have to spend months waiting to see if she's charged with a form of homicide?

Depending on where she works - LEO, Fed, certain companies - she may also lose her job for being arrested. Awesome.

Originally Posted by ineedone

Police officers are given legal authority to use lethal force in doing their job. If they shoot someone they are immediately placed on administrative leave and the incident is investigated.

Not true. I stayed a Holliday Inn Express, i know what the fuck i'm talking about. (lets see if you catch that one)

Originally Posted by ineedone

I do not see the problem with requiring that of citizens. Especially when the homicide only has 2 witnesses 1 of which is dead and can not tell their side.

Yes, because being arrested and POTENTIALLY being put on leave (a punishment) or pulled off street duty are exactly the same thime.

Originally Posted by ineedone

Now, to address the MMA issue. I agree, if you get punched the head enough it can do major damage. Do you really think that someone with just a barely broken nose (his nose looked fine at trial, not crooked or anything) and some minor bruises is getting punched enough to think they are going to die?

So... he should have waited to see if the beating was going to get worse? He also claims what happened was during the scuffle, TM saw the gun and went for it. Once it becomes a fight over the gun - it is a fight for life and death. I would not, nor would I ever expect anyone else to be like - "oh, no biggie, he'll just point it at me to defend himself and tell me to beat it".

Originally Posted by ineedone

The standard that Florida is setting is that if you get into a fight, for any reason, and you are losing that fight - you can escalate, pull a gun, and kill that person. That is sketchy stuff.

Hey, legal genius. I thought you had degrees and are a pro? Was the degree a 2-year associate from Ivy Tech? Oh wait, if that was the case - you may have known that...

This was not a "fist fight". This was not GZ walking up to TM and say "yo bitch, Lakers suck, I'm kicking your ass" and they proceed to brawl and GZ shoots TM.
GZ went before a jury and claimed he was attacked. In no state is looking at, talking to or following someone considered an act of aggression. GZ argued he was attacked and defended him self. This is not the same as a "fight that got out of hand and a guy killed the other guy because he claims at some point it went from a fight to a battle of life and death".

Also, there is no precedent stated. This was not a legal review that overturned a case, this was a trial by jury. Casey Anthony didn't set a new precedent that you can tuck tape, abuse and kill you child then lie to police. OJ Simpson did not set a precedent that you can murder your ex-wife, kill her "friend" and try and feel the country.

It didn't become "open season" on unwanted children and ex-wives after either case. Just like GZ isn't going to cause it to be "open season" on innocent black children - since in cities like Chicago, it already is.

Originally Posted by ineedone

Dude, this guy is beyond bigot. Full blown Towson White Student Union, Stormfront card carrying member man.

Yes, when you start to lose a fight, don't have facts to back up your argument or are just angry that someone has different opinion then you - lash out with personal attacks. A true mark of an educated professional.

[imotion s14]

Listening to Lionel Hutz makes me want to attend law school.

[stevenrapids]

Originally Posted by ineedone

Dude, this guy is beyond bigot. Full blown Towson White Student Union, Stormfront card carrying member man.

And how is this not a racist remark? talk about a double standard

[silviaks2nr]

There is certainly a double standard. You can only be racist if you're white. I wonder if that will change in 15 years when whites are no longer a majority group?

I consider Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton equally as vile as white supremacist leaders. Their causes are the same although their audience and following are polar opposites. It's a shame they are not all portrayed in an equally negative light in the media. All they are doing is perpetuating the notion that races should not be equal and that each race should be treated differently.

[1 88 U]

Originally Posted by ineedone

For the sake of argument I will accept the story Zimmerman said. However, I still believe that if someone shoots another person they should be arrested and it should be investigated as a homicide.

I'm not referring specifically to this case when I say FUCK THAT SHIT!

[xilovelsdx]

Originally Posted by silviaks2nr

There is certainly a double standard. You can only be racist if you're white. I wonder if that will change in 15 years when whites are no longer a majority group?

I consider Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton equally as vile as white supremacist leaders. Their causes are the same although their audience and following are polar opposites. It's a shame they are not all portrayed in an equally negative light in the media. All they are doing is perpetuating the notion that races should not be equal and that each race should be treated differently.

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson should be considered terrorists.

[AFSil80]

Originally Posted by Phlip

And again, Florida... A state doesn't want to pursue charges until the public outcry, and even then compiles the shittiest of prosecution cases. I honestly believe they only arrested and charged the guy to shut black people up, then blew the case so they could shrug and throw up their hands as if to say "shit, well we did all we can do." The lack of ANY male jurors, and the presence of at least one whose words since the trial suggests a bias to the advantage of the defense is where I draw this from.

How so? The judge included manslaughter (which I think he could've been found guilty of) but the jury didn't find him guilty? Sounds like your issue is with the jury, not the state.

The fact remains...George Zimmerman followed the kid because he was acting shady in a neighborhood that has a history of break ins and violence. The hell was he supposed to do? Was it a bad situation? Sure, that's what the neighborhood watch is there for. To report SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY. Not just shine a flashlight at people and shake their finger in anger and shout 'GET OFF THAT LAWN, ASSHOLE.'

George Zimmerman reported what he saw, and while trying to maintain an eye on him before the cops showed up, he gets jumped by the wannabe thug, and the rest we know because the liberal media just can't leave this subject alone since the story sells.

Originally Posted by Phlip

I don't much care about their races (5 white, one non-black minority, for the record). As Zimmerman was the one we were TOLD was on trial - though it wound up being the deceased on trial instead - that a jury of his "peers" would include zero men is curious. Since he was not a black guy, that there were no black men was not so much a curious omission.
And yes, the jury was selected by both sides, furthering my suggestion that the state never intended to actually CONVICT Zimmerman of anything. The time it took them to bother with charging him with anything, and then OVER charging does the same.

You do realize peers means citizens, right? If it meant a jury full of black men, it would be called a jury of sympathizers. There weren't any men PERIOD so I guess by your logic Zimmerman had no peers on the jury either.

[imotion s14]

Originally Posted by ineedone

For the sake of argument I will accept the story Zimmerman said. However, I still believe that if someone shoots another person they should be arrested and it should be investigated as a homicide.

Police officers are given legal authority to use lethal force in doing their job. If they shoot someone they are immediately placed on administrative leave and the incident is investigated. I do not see the problem with requiring that of citizens. Especially when the homicide only has 2 witnesses 1 of which is dead and can not tell their side.

He WAS arrested that night and taken into police custody where he was interviewed. The thing that corroborated his story and thus self-defense seemed INITIALLY plausible was his injuries. So they let him go. Based on the tons of evidence and documentation from the SPD that was made available because of the trial, we know they were working on it until outside forces took over their homicide investigation because of a handful of loud mouths THOUGHT and CLAIMED that the SPD wasn't doing anything about it. But the large amounts of paper work and evidence collection by the SPD is proof to the contrary.

It's irony is that the people who claim the SPD was doing such shoddy police work didn't even bother to criticize the City Managers' decision to show evidence of an on going homicide investigation to the Martin family with no police present and while everyone was in the room. Standard police procedure is to do 1 on 1 with each potential witness/suspect involved in a case to avoid contamination.

[quote]Now, to address the MMA issue. I agree, if you get punched the head enough it can do major damage. Do you really think that someone with just a barely broken nose (his nose looked fine at trial, not crooked or anything) and some minor bruises is getting punched enough to think they are going to die?[quote]

It doesn't matter, the standard for self defense only requires REASONABLE fear of great bodily harm and or death. Most cases of self-defense doesn't even require physical contact.

Slamming someone's head against the concrete can cause great bodily harm.

The standard that Florida is setting is that if you get into a fight, for any reason, and you are losing that fight - you can escalate, pull a gun, and kill that person. That is sketchy stuff.

See the problem with people is they think if someone attacks you, you have to fight back with fist.

Non-sense.

This isn't mutual combat where 2 participants enter into willingly for the purpose of some cock measuring contest to establish social pecking order.

That's what people think of when people "fight".

What we're talking about is assault and battery where one side instigates a verbal and or physical contact on an unwilling party and a one-sided fight ensues.

If I bump some guy at a bar and he gets pissed off at me and follows me to my car to try and fight me for that, there is no legal obligation on my part that says I have to meet his force with equal force.

[AFSil80]

As soon as Zimmerman hit the ground and Trayvon followed through, it turned into assault. (That's a crime, BTW)

Obligatory pot stirring:

Chicago Crime -- ChicagoTribune.com

When will we see nation-wide coverage of all of these victims of homicide? Seems like those nanny-state gun laws sure are working out for those law-abiding citizens.

[JFIVE]

Ive been racially profiled many times in my life and I thank god it's never cost me my life. Arguing want do anything....Get out be positive thats is whats needed. Everyone thinks they know, but most don't until you've been a Blackman in America you will never know the feeling. Sucks a kid had to die and yes it happens daily, I know that also.

[imotion s14]

This is what *I* believed happened.

Trayvon took a shortcut between 1460 and 1510 Retreat View Circle. This is a grassy alley way between homes. Generally NOT a walking path. A townhome differs from a condo in that a townhome owner has the right to the townhome + the surrounding lot.

Zimmerman spots Trayvon on the lawn of 1460 Retreat View Cr, which is the home of Frank Taaffe. One of Zimmerman's first supporters and known friend. He's a middle aged white guy.

This is where race played a part, both Trayvon's race AND Frank's race comes into play. He's a middle aged white guy. Trayvon a teenage black guy standing on his lawn.

If you say that's not suspicious then you're full of shit.

Then he's walking slowly.. while it's raining looking about according to Zimmerna's 9-11 call.

The loud mouths think Zimmerman is making those things up of course because he's clairvoyant and knows that he's about to be embroiled in a racially charged shit-storm for the next year. Really, that's what they believe; that Zimmerman's 9-11 was a self-serving attempt to hide what he was going to do.

Typical example that these loud mouths are illogical fools:

This is crazy this man should be arrested and charged with 1st degree murder Zimmerman was up to no good the kid ran away from him and zimmerman came after him. This blows my mind!!!

Because people who are up to no good call the police dispatcher.. to request the police to come immediately.

He says he drives past Martin and stops at the club house. Video recording shows headlights pulling into the club house parking area, confirmed by time stamps.

He makes his now infamous call.

He backs out and turns right unto Twin Trees and follows him in his car.

Trayvon comes to check him out.

He gives the dispatcher some haphazard instructions for about 25 seconds before saying that Trayvon started running.

I estimate that Trayvon had a good 80-100 ft head start, which placed him near the top of the T before he starts running.

SPD evidence marked at the scene places Zimmerman's key at the top of the T, in the grass.

Zimmerman in his reenactment says he got punched exactly where the crime scene techs marked the keys at.

So we're left with some conclusions.

If Martin ran, how did he make such poor progress unless he came back? Because 4 minutes had lapsed during which Zimmerman was on the phone.

He came back to teach Zimmerman a lesson and got a lesson of his own.. don't attack a man with a 9mm pistol.

But that's just too long, too much info, doesn't fit the narrative.

Trayvon was walking home with skittles and Watermelon flavored Arizona softdrink, white guy chased him (lol), caught up with him (LOL), cornered him and shot him then punched himself in the face to make it look like self defense (LMAO!).

[xilovelsdx]

Originally Posted by JFIVE

Ive been racially profiled many times in my life and I thank god it's never cost me my life. Arguing want do anything....Get out be positive thats is whats needed. Everyone thinks they know, but most don't until you've been a Blackman in America you will never know the feeling. Sucks a kid had to die and yes it happens daily, I know that also.

What do you think when someone is slowing walking behind your house in the rain that you have never seen before?

[imotion s14]

That would be snitching.

[stevenrapids]

Originally Posted by JFIVE

Ive been racially profiled many times in my life and I thank god it's never cost me my life. Arguing want do anything....Get out be positive thats is whats needed. Everyone thinks they know, but most don't until you've been a Blackman in America you will never know the feeling. Sucks a kid had to die and yes it happens daily, I know that also.

personally, where I am from, i have many friend of different ethnic backgrounds. AND as a college student i see that in no way are people of different ethnic groups treated different, if anything they get more opportunities from the state, and nation. Ya, there are individuals and groups that discriminate and maybe i am bias from where i am from, but race cannot be used as an excuse for everything.

[JFIVE]

[QUOTE=xilovelsdx;5353546]What do you think when someone is slowing walking behind your house in the rain that you have never seen
Thats happened before.grabbed my rifle. I will not describe everything for you to depict it to start a possible tennis match. I would never follow them and confront them just because I'm armed. I own the weapon the weapon doesn't own me. Don't stress it man things are jacked just stay positive and do whats right man. Don't let the media run you and blind you.

[xilovelsdx]

[Juantwo3]

and the rangers aim was deadly with the big iron on his hip.

[Phlip]

Originally Posted by silviaks2nr

There is certainly a double standard. You can only be racist if you're white. I wonder if that will change in 15 years when whites are no longer a majority group?

So are we speaking of this as a PROBLEM or a solution to a problem? Perhaps the striking down of items that can be defined as "minority" in number are just what we need. I mean, it is CLEAR how fucked up the opposite has been with regards to the way we have BEEN doing shit. It isn't like minorities have EVER had a reason to trust white people thus far.
And the fact that you think that this is something that could happen in only 15 years suggests that you have been listening to some DANGEROUSLY ill-informed people. It would take an extinction level event to cause a shift in the population like that. A genocide not seen since the Native Americans were exterminated.
And while we're at it, I want you to name one law that was ever in existence in the United States specifically designed to hold white people back.

[AFSil80]

Ohhhh the natives...the single, proven reason why government can't be trusted with anyone's well being.

And yet liberals think that a bigger government is less evil. Blows my mind.

[Phlip]

“single”? Not at all. More like the first in a line of reasons that apparently won’t end. Up to and including “shoot first” laws and tampered-ass juries put in place by prosecutors that never intended to convict anyone.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by Phlip

“single”? Not at all. More like the first in a line of reasons that apparently won’t end. Up to and including “shoot first” laws and tampered-ass juries put in place by prosecutors that never intended to convict anyone.

Honestly if the prosecution was all about letting the cracker, I mean crack'a off, they would never have challenged the defense's attempt to bring up TM's history of violence, drug abuse and alleged criminal involvement in theft.


Also, GZ didn't shoot first. TM broke his nose and grounded him first.

This isn't black kid walking in the rain, crack'a whips out a desert eagle and blasts him then says "shit I saw he was black so I thought he had a gun and was gonna kill me....I had to shoot"

[Phlip]

And if they wanted to win, they would have attempted to bring up Zimmerman’s old MySpace page which contained posts painting him as both prejudiced and quite probably a loose cannon.
I really believe they only arrested and charged the guy to shut black people up, not to convict him of anything. Allowing the jury to be put into position to be tampered with is a problem in and of itself, but the prosecution did themselves ZERO favors in their “attempt” to get a guilty verdict.
Nothing in me is surprised

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by Phlip

And if they wanted to win, they would have attempted to bring up Zimmerman’s old MySpace page which contained posts painting him as both prejudiced and quite probably a loose cannon.
I really believe they only arrested and charged the guy to shut black people up, not to convict him of anything. Allowing the jury to be put into position to be tampered with is a problem in and of itself, but the prosecution did themselves ZERO favors in their “attempt” to get a guilty verdict.
Nothing in me is surprised

Yeah...massive "tampering".

Just verified with Heather Smith, from the Seminole Country Sheriff’s Office at 407-474-6259. She states, “Generally speaking, jurors serving on the Zimmerman trial were afforded two hours of visiting privileges with family of friends each weekend.” I asked what she meant by generally speaking,” and she states, “there were more opportunities afforded jurors but not all took advantage.”

I'm willing to bet that's fairly standard. What, your going to lock them up in solitary at the county jail during the off hours. These people have their own lives to worry about as well. They didn't choose to be on the jurry and it would be appalling to think that for weeks, months or even a year they sound give up their lives for $15 a day to fullfil their civic duty.


I don't see anywhere someone claiming the jurry was paid off or threated. If anything I would think the sear insane hostility being shown people people regarding the verdict would be cause for them to vote guilty.

I'm awaiting a DOJ investigation into each one of them.