This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread.

[Odysseus]

Okay so I have a question about my tie rods and such. I have ERA1 rack offset spacers, Tein inner tie rods, Abercrombie 1" longer outer tie rod ends and KPR modded knuckles.

I put it all together today and my toe is gonna be fucked. I completely centered my steering wheel and one side is wayyy toed in and one is sort of toed in. This is with the outer tie rods threaded all the way down the inners to make them as short as possible. Its pretty clear that the tie rods are too long but I dont get why one is toed in way more than the other. I would just return the longer outer tie rods but they wont accept the return so here I am looking for options short of buying Tein outters. I cant thread the outers onto the inners any further even though there is still thread showing because the inners are bottoming out on the thread change inside the outers since each end of the outers has a different thread pitch...

On to the pictures...









I also dont even have these golden bronze things (spacers?) on the part of the inner tie rod that threads into the rack (Or in this case my rack offset spacers) cause it would space it out even further.



So any advice on why its more toed in on once side than the other with the steering wheel centered and what I should do about the toe...Cut the inners, cut on the outters, get Tein outters, etc.

Thanks guys

[az_240]

Cutting the inners won't do you any good unless you tap some threads.

I'd just get Z33/Z32 inners which are shorter or maybe oem outers.

[brainfood]

Cut the outers and the run a tap through them. Depending on how far down they are tapped may not even need to.

[Odysseus]

So Ill definatly cut the outters since if it comes to it those will be replaced anyways with Teins. Im thinking Ill cut on the heim joint side and then probably be forced to cut the part that threads in to the coupling nut too because half way down inside that long nut there is a change of thread pitch between the ends and that makes sense to me to cut it so it doesnt bottom out as quick. Right?

I still dont get why one sides way more toed in than the other. Ill have to cut them uneven to fix that...

[PoorMans180SX]

Tell us how you centered your rack.

[jaysgottaredtop]

^ this. if you properly centered your rack, i don't think your toe would be differing that badly from left to right. i think you need to get the rack DEAD centered, then rotate your steering shaft over a couple splines to re-center your steering wheel with your now-correctly-centered rack.

my apologies if you have already done this; i don't mean to sounds condescending.

[Odysseus]

No need to appologize, you have a good point and I'm here to learn. I think your right. I'm building this car from the ground up so when I had the enginebay tore apart to paint and cut out my wells, the crossmember was also dropped to clean and paint and so I could put in energy bushings, a solid steering bushing and a rebuilt rack. I had marked on the column and on the rack so I could just line them back up and have it be straight but I must have botched that.

To center it....do I just get each side equally toed in and then move my steering wheel hub to center or do I have to move splines on the rack/steering column? That's not gonna be fun with the motor sitting above the rack if that's the case. I'd measure how much of the rack is sticking out on each end to make sure it's even but both sides where the rack slides in and out are different.

Basically, what's the best/easiest way to make sure I'm 100% centered?

[IThaJokaI]

Easiest way is to turn full lock to the left, count turns till right lock. divide by 2 and turn your wheel to that point. IE: 3 full turns from left to right, 1.5 turns is centered.

[Odysseus]

I was playing with that earlier. It was pretty imprecise feeling. Like if I were to go a little over say 1.5 turns, it moved the rack quite a bit.

[towlie]

Could you use one of the spacers to space out the tie rod that isn't aligned properly? It sounds like your steering rack could be off also. Maybe find some z32/33 inners to play with and see if that would help. IMO, I don't like offset spacers (not brand bashing lol) maybe take them off and see what happens? Also tell me how u like KPR's knuckles I was just talking to him about a pair lol

[jaysgottaredtop]

Originally Posted by towlie

It sounds like your steering rack could be off also.

holy lord, i hope not. the rack only mounts one way, and in one specific orientation. if the rack itself was off that far, there would be a lottttt of other concerningly crooked things happening in the front of that car

my bet is still on a not-precisely-centered rack.

Originally Posted by Odysseus

To center it....do I just get each side equally toed in and then move my steering wheel hub to center or do I have to move splines on the rack/steering column? That's not gonna be fun with the motor sitting above the rack if that's the case. I'd measure how much of the rack is sticking out on each end to make sure it's even but both sides where the rack slides in and out are different.

Basically, what's the best/easiest way to make sure I'm 100% centered?

get it near center and keep checking until the ends of the shaft are both X distance away from their respective ends of the rack body. once its centered, unhook the steering shaft splined thing from the rack input, straighten the steering wheel, and re-spline it on.

THEN turn it lock to lock and check that the steering wheel ends up at roughly the same angle in either direction.

at least that's how i did mine. worked perfectly the first time. equal turns in both directions.

[huffandpuff00]

get rid of those ERA-1 rack spacers and move your rack forward 30mm. then your inners should be short enough to correct your toe

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by towlie

Could you use one of the spacers to space out the tie rod that isn't aligned properly? It sounds like your steering rack could be off also. Maybe find some z32/33 inners to play with and see if that would help. IMO, I don't like offset spacers (not brand bashing lol) maybe take them off and see what happens? Also tell me how u like KPR's knuckles I was just talking to him about a pair lol

The problem is the tie rods are too long already with the rack offset spacers. I need less length but I feel like nothing about my setup is out of the ordinary other than the 1" longer outers. I don't want to get it to work without the offset spacers since I actually wanna run them. And I will let you know about the knuckles for sure.

Originally Posted by jaysgottaredtop

holy lord, i hope not. the rack only mounts one way, and in one specific orientation. if the rack itself was off that far, there would be a lottttt of other concerningly crooked things happening in the front of that car

my bet is still on a not-precisely-centered rack.




get it near center and keep checking until the ends of the shaft are both X distance away from their respective ends of the rack body. once its centered, unhook the steering shaft splined thing from the rack input, straighten the steering wheel, and re-spline it on.

THEN turn it lock to lock and check that the steering wheel ends up at roughly the same angle in either direction.

at least that's how i did mine. worked perfectly the first time. equal turns in both directions.

My rack is installed correctly lol I think that it's just not centered too

What's the difference between centering the rack and moving splines at the rack/column and centering the rack and moving splines at the steering wheel? I feel like it will accomplish the same thing and be a hell of a lot easier. Unless the column down towards the bottom has a sort of stopper on it so I cant rotate that much once the steering wheel is repositioned. And also maybe my turn signals might not turn themselves off

Originally Posted by huffandpuff00

get rid of those ERA-1 rack spacers and move your rack forward 30mm. then your inners should be short enough to correct your toe

I'm not gonna pull the crossmember out again to mod it. The rack offset spacers are stayin. They will serve their purpose I'm sure. Plenty of people run them.

[swiftmini]

all i have ever done is removed the steering wheel from the column and replaced it in the centred position. usually only 1 or 2 splines over.

and if you use different spacing each side then you will end up with your rod ends screwed on more one side than the other

[swiftmini]

using offset spacers adds an element of bump steer imo.

modding the crossmember is 100% better.

Dont run modded crossmember and offset spacers!! There is such a thing as TOO much of a good thing!!!

The location of your rack has a big effect on your ackerman angle. Dan from psm has stated that a few times and also used a graph to show what he means

[PoorMans180SX]

EDIT:

Btw Ody, your tie rod ends are corrected much too far, you should only need a stock length shank with the knuckle arm dropped like that.

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by swiftmini

all i have ever done is removed the steering wheel from the column and replaced it in the centred position. usually only 1 or 2 splines over.

and if you use different spacing each side then you will end up with your rod ends screwed on more one side than the other

I want to just move the steering wheel a few splines instead of moving the column/rack area splines since itll be soooo much easier...Im just waiting for someone smarter than me to chime in and say it has to be moved at the bottom of the column to be right.

And no, I wont use different spacing each side. Its gonna be even, I just gotta know how to center to rack to start cutting to get it there...

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

If using offset spacers adds bumpsteer, then moving your rack forward does too, since the pivot points are in the same locations.

Maybe you meant it adds ackerman?

Btw Ody, your tie rod ends are corrected much too far, you should only need a stock length shank with the knuckle arm dropped like that.

I only got the extra long tie rod ends because my FLCA are extended and I thought Id need it. It turns out I dont with the rack offset spacers so now I gotta cut lol

[jaysgottaredtop]

Originally Posted by Odysseus

What's the difference between centering the rack and moving splines at the rack/column and centering the rack and moving splines at the steering wheel? I feel like it will accomplish the same thing and be a hell of a lot easier.

yep, re-splining the steering wheel will work the same, go for it.

i just mentioned the splines at the rack since that's how i usually do it. they tend to be easier to slip on/off, at least on my car anyways.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Odysseus

I want to just move the steering wheel a few splines instead of moving the column/rack area splines since itll be soooo much easier...Im just waiting for someone smarter than me to chime in and say it has to be moved at the bottom of the column to be right.

And no, I wont use different spacing each side. Its gonna be even, I just gotta know how to center to rack to start cutting to get it there...



I only got the extra long tie rod ends because my FLCA are extended and I thought Id need it. It turns out I dont with the rack offset spacers so now I gotta cut lol

I mean the vertical adjustment you have at the knuckle. Maybe you're just mocking it up, but they are lowered too much and will give you some weird bumpsteer.

[240sxr]

just extend your FLCA's ,i used maxima/i35 inner and otuer tie rods,and are longer,so i just extended my FLCA's and got more negative camber,more angle and didn't needed to cut the tie rods

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by jaysgottaredtop

yep, re-splining the steering wheel will work the same, go for it.

i just mentioned the splines at the rack since that's how i usually do it. they tend to be easier to slip on/off, at least on my car anyways.

I find it alot easier to take off my NRG hub and move it than to have to have do the lower one. I'll try it and see if I can get it more normal from up top lol

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

I mean the vertical adjustment you have at the knuckle. Maybe you're just mocking it up, but they are lowered too much and will give you some weird bumpsteer.

Ahh you mean how far they stick down past the mount on the knuckle which has already been lowered when they were modded? So I really should get Tein outers not only for their shorter length but for their shorter height too?

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by 240sxr

just extend your FLCA's ,i used maxima/i35 inner and otuer tie rods,and are longer,so i just extended my FLCA's and got more negative camber,more angle and didn't needed to cut the tie rods

They are extended 30mm already.

[Odysseus]

Here is a photo I found of them actually tightened up. They suck up quite a bit. It's just the nylock nut that hangs down a ways.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Odysseus

Ahh you mean how far they stick down past the mount on the knuckle which has already been lowered when they were modded? So I really should get Tein outers not only for their shorter length but for their shorter height too?

Yeah, if you can't adjust those to stock height then yeah. I'm sure there would be someone who wants the ones you have on their now.

[Odysseus]

Posted for sale on this site. Any takers?

Thanks for the help guys.

[swiftmini]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

If using offset spacers adds bumpsteer, then moving your rack forward does too, since the pivot points are in the same locations.

Maybe you meant it adds ackerman?

Btw Ody, your tie rod ends are corrected much too far, you should only need a stock length shank with the knuckle arm dropped like that.

So your saying that making your rack wider by an inch either side DOESNT increase bump steer at all??



Even adding a 7mm spacer alters your bumpsteer caracteristics!!

In the uk some guys will use the dw offset spacer, but will also redrill the inner lca mounts further outboard to correct some bump steer.

Adjusting camber at the top plate also has an affect on bumpsteer.


Moving the rack forward and using the offset spacers, will massively alter ackerman!!!! I already said that though and so has Dan@max

EDIT:

[swiftmini]

Originally Posted by Odysseus

I want to just move the steering wheel a few splines instead of moving the column/rack area splines since itll be soooo much easier...Im just waiting for someone smarter than me to chime in and say it has to be moved at the bottom of the column to be right.

And no, I wont use different spacing each side. Its gonna be even, I just gotta know how to center to rack to start cutting to get it there...

LOL I just did say that you can do it

And if your spacing Will be the same either side then why the hell are you re centring your rack??

Iam confused now because i have been running knuckles, with recentred rack since 2009 and on one side my track rod end is screwed about 5-10mm further than the opposite side. If it wasnt different each side i wouldnt have needed to recentre the rack.

The 5-10mm is the equvalent of one or two splines on the column

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by swiftmini

So your saying that making your rack wider by an inch either side DOESNT increase bump steer at all??

Even adding a 7mm spacer alters your bumpsteer caracteristics!!

In the uk some guys will use the dw offset spacer, but will also redrill the inner lca mounts further outboard to correct some bump steer.

You are correct sir, above post edited.

[kristinachelsea]

My rack is DEFINITELY centered and my tie rods are adjusted to about 10mm different lengths for Zero toe. Your problem is normal, IMO.

[Motary]

Some progress on my setup:









Next up adding a spacer or rack spacer to the left side, because I dont have that much lock after rack recentering and time to start thinking about a new lower control arm.

I have thought about doing it many ways, one is like Wisefab did and tdp followed is where they used standard chassis mounting points. My idea is to make a new tension rod brackets so i could place the rod ends straight