This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread.

[Def]

Originally Posted by SicBastard

What bearing are you refering too?

A bearing.... for a Nissan.... that's heavier than an S chassis... with a 5x4.5" bolt circle. That's like... all of the cars that Nissan made with 5 lug hubs besides the 240SX, so that should narrow things down.

[Def]

Originally Posted by swiftmini

So apart from the lack of sphericals (which i dont want/need) and the handbrake cable routing are these recommended? Iam just about to place my order but wanted to double check on here.

Cheers

Nice work on the sphericals btw

Why would you want to start jacking around with the rear roll center(which is not as much of an issue as the front) and not want to go to spherical bearings in the rear?

Let me put it this way, the benefit from spherical bearings in the rear is HUGE. The rear roll center isn't a huge problem unless you start getting REALLY low, which at that point your front roll center is probably hanging out around the center of the earth. Just chillin' with a 748.3 mile long roll couple.

Just letting the rear suspension actually work and articulate by putting proper bearings in the spindle is a HUGE improvement. It's step 1 to take on getting a suspension that actually works well. Tweaking the stock geometry is secondary.

[95KA-Turbo]

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

So, just to clarify, the Z32 and Z33 inner tie rods are the same length? The tie rod ends I made are pretty long and one of my inner tie rods is shot anyway, so I need to order new ones. I'd rather not have to cut up new tie rods.

Does anyone have any actual measurements I couldn't find any online.

Can I get any confirmation on this? I need to order them so I can get my car on the trailer!

[GSXRJJordan]

Originally Posted by Def

Why would you want to start jacking around with the rear roll center(which is not as much of an issue as the front) and not want to go to spherical bearings in the rear?

Let me put it this way, the benefit from spherical bearings in the rear is HUGE. The rear roll center isn't a huge problem unless you start getting REALLY low, which at that point your front roll center is probably hanging out around the center of the earth. Just chillin' with a 748.3 mile long roll couple.

Just letting the rear suspension actually work and articulate by putting proper bearings in the spindle is a HUGE improvement. It's step 1 to take on getting a suspension that actually works well. Tweaking the stock geometry is secondary.

Agreed 100%.

[SoSideways]

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

Can I get any confirmation on this? I need to order them so I can get my car on the trailer!

Sorry, wasn't online all weekend and then yesterday I was really busy so I didn't have time to come onto Zilvia.

I have the Tein S-chassis and Z33 tie rods in my hands right now, so I can measure those for you.

I do not have Z32 tie rods in my hands, but if you go to SPL Parts' website and go under the TECH section and look up the procedures for installing their tie rod ends, they did mention a slight adjustment between putting on the Z32 and Z32 tie rods.

However, I think my tie rod ends are going to be long enough to be able to adjust out the difference between the two.

I will measure the length for the tie rods for you later on in the day... I gotta run to drop my wife off at the airport right now.

[PoorMans180SX]

You should get with Skullworks and Def and offer your tie rod ends as a package with the knuckles they will hopefully come out with.

Double-sheer, double-sheer!

[SoSideways]

If they do come up with a design I'm sure they will manage to design the tie rod end bit into it.

But if they don't, I already have a line with the machine shop to just crank out a few sets and what not.

I'm just wanting to do some testing on them before I start selling them, just in case I need to change anything.

BTW, I still owe 95KA-Turbo some measurements. Yesterday was crazy hectic for me and I ended up not having time to measure the tie rods, and then I ended up forgetting about it, till just now.

I'll get it measured today.

[sonomadrifter]

All of these companies seemed to have opened their doors to knuckle modification in the form of chopping the tie rod end arm and shortening/lowering/moving to gain response, angle and/or reduce bump steer.

What is the actual process past “get it hot, weld then cool it slow in sand”? Because I cant seem to find anything concrete on welding forged metal past that.

I have all the tools to do this myself but I don’t want this snapping on the freeway. I would gladly pay for the peace of mind of that not happening to a reputable company but if they don’t or wouldn’t do anything different in the process or structurally, I would like to keep the money and reduce the turn around time by doing it myself.

So what’s the deal? I’m not trying to copy someone’s idea, because I have my own, but like most people in college, I need to weight the situation.

Love this thread.

[SoSideways]

I don't think the knuckles are forged metal.

I think they're cast iron.

[atutt]

Yes.. They are in fact, cast iron.
I should mention. that just because one has the tools. Doesn't mean they have the skills to utilize them properly.

I've been working on a friend drift car and he has modded knuckles... Not even on the car and they have already cracked. Someone had the tools. But, didn't have the skills...

[sonomadrifter]

Originally Posted by atutt

I should mention. that just because one has the tools. Doesn't mean they have the skills to utilize them properly.

Which is exactly why I'm here not chopping mine to pieces, sorry if it came out that way.

I feel as though through myself, and older brother's experience we know our way around metal. However, cast/forged what have you, we do not have experience with and looking to learn.

[atutt]

Originally Posted by sonomadrifter

Which is exactly why I'm here not chopping mine to pieces, sorry if it came out that way.

I feel as though through myself, and older brother's experience we know our way around metal. However, cast/forged what have you, we do not have experience with and looking to learn.

Sorry I wasn't trying to come off as a dick. I was just trying to make a statement.

Cast iron needs both a pre and post heat treatment. Putting in sand is a good way to let it cool down slowly. Also needs to be welded with a high nickle rod.

[95KA-Turbo]

My friend that made mine just had their shop opening down here in VA Beach last week. His knuckles have been on 3-4 cars without any issues. In fact, one of my friend's who has the knuckles snapped his inner tie rod end and his welds are just fine.

He does them pretty cheap if you feel like making the trek down here .

[GSXRJJordan]

I love the fact that VA Beach has some cool performance shops now... when I was living there in 2003-2005, nobody even knew what drifting was, and everyone thought my roommates S13 hatch was FWD.

[GripTerror]

I always get excited when I see collaboration amongst us enthusaists with the s chassis... Innovation rocks!

I wish I could contribute but unfortunately pretty much all I can do is use the parts and race with them

I'm awaiting for mmdb to post reviews of his driftworks modded knuckle... although the expense on his end doesn't make sense The knuckle should have been designed that way from the get go.

Its too bad powered by max is lazy/preoccupied with other projects (as i contacted them)... it seems like no one else is jumping on the bandwagon of making more knuckles like these The only other knuckles available are drift oriented ones which just focus on steering angle

Def you got me real excited... if you pull through.. well.. in either case I am mega excited to see what you come up with.

[Def]

Originally Posted by GripTerror

I always get excited when I see collaboration amongst us enthusaists with the s chassis... Innovation rocks!

I wish I could contribute but unfortunately pretty much all I can do is use the parts and race with them

I'm awaiting for mmdb to post reviews of his driftworks modded knuckle... although the expense on his end doesn't make sense The knuckle should have been designed that way from the get go.

Its too bad powered by max is lazy/preoccupied with other projects (as i contacted them)... it seems like no one else is jumping on the bandwagon of making more knuckles like these The only other knuckles available are drift oriented ones which just focus on steering angle

Def you got me real excited... if you pull through.. well.. in either case I am mega excited to see what you come up with.

I've already done some preliminary design work. It's just a question of making something that will actually sell at least a few sets.

Pretty sure it's going to be a package setup, since there are just too many design compromises trying to use crappy stock parts like FLCA or tie rod ends. It might increase the cost into the "too much at one time" category, but I'm hoping people see the benefit of buying a single solution which is all designed to work together and work well.

Things are going to be modular and adjustable. It'll make things cheaper in the grand scheme of things if you look at it as a package. The design phase is going to take a while though, and cost quite a bit buying parts, so if it looks feasible I'll go ahead and do it.

[mmdb]

Yeah sucks to spend money on something trusted to bolt right up and work. I guess it worked like this, they (Driftworks) tried a product (SP-TEC's knuckles), liked 'em, decided they could produce 'em for much cheaper since there's only a single developer, and BAM - spindles for a fraction of the price. They did put out a product that doesn't fit correctly, and I did spend a bit of my money getting them to work; but ultimately I'm thankful they did it. NO ONE offers these units and the performance outweighs the cost. Now that it's helping spark DEF's hand at it, it's a bit of a win-win situation since DEF's design will be better and someone else will get my used set at a fraction of the cost

[SoSideways]

95KA-Turbo,

I finally did some measuring.

I measured the entire length of the tie rod, minus the ball joint part and the part that threads into the rack itself, so these are just the lengths of the "thin" rod part.

Tein Z33 - 7-3/16" from the ball joint to the end of the rod.
Tein S-chassis - 9-1/8" from the ball joint to the end of the rod.

So you see, it's almost exactly 2 inches in difference between those two.

I believe the only difference you'll notice between the Z33 and Z32 tie rods, would be that the Tein Z33 tie rods come with the Tein steering rack spacers, which are 6mm in thickness, so if you put those on, the Tein Z33 tie rods will be 6mm longer, in a sense, than the Z32 tie rods w/ just the locking plates on them.

I ordered the PBM steering rack spacers, which are 7mm instead of 6mm, so that should give me a tiny bit more angle before going with modified knuckles, and they should be here tomorrow.

I will see where my tie rod ends place my toe tomorrow night.

[95KA-Turbo]

Yeah I called a few places today and got enough of the answer I was looking for to order them, haha.

Thank you for the exact measurements!

I measured my Tien S14 outers and they're ~4.5 inches, my new outers are ~5.9 inches so I will need the extra space!

My new front spindles should be here tomorrow or Friday and I am dropping my Z32 rear uprights off at my friend's as well so the rear shock mount will be corrected. Once the car is running and I can drive it I'll mess with the rear toe arm angle.


GSXRJJordan - I didn't even get my first 240 until 2005, but I know there was drifting around as early as 2001 and 2002....you just REALLY had to look for it. I started out doing auto-x because I was afraid I'd mess my car up drifting, so I probably didn't even do my first drift event until 06; then it was all down hill from there!

[SoSideways]

I just measured my tie rod ends.

They're 5-7/8" in length fully collapsed.

So yeah, you and I are pretty much on the same boat.

Although.... you have modified front knuckles, and I don't.

[xpinoyxmk]

Dmax tie rod ends and adapter just came in

[!Zar!]

I'm tempted on picking up those steering rack add ons. Will the bump stops need to be cut? And I'd imagine some crazy angle would be picked up with those and a shorter knuckle.

[PoorMans180SX]

Yeah, those are huge spacers. I don't even think I would use those without modded knuckles, seems like they would make the steering like 3.2 or 3.5 turns lock-to-lock.

[95KA-Turbo]

I had some first gen D-Max outer tie rods with URAS inners and the inner ones went bad in two events and when I went to go remove the outers they had seized to the inners and had rust on the heim joints.

Hopefully they improved their design - it looks like they are made with better heims now.




Also, got my new front spindles this afternoon, officially ordered my Z33 inner tie rods, and dropped my rear spindles off to be cut/welded - so hopefully this time next week my car will be back on the ground, rolled on to a trailer, and taken to get the motor dropped in so I can get the bitch running and muck around with the suspension geometry properly.

[Def]

I wouldn't run those - look like any other cheap Chinese made 14mm shank tie rod outers. I had some and the cast rod end is absolute junk. Mine developed a noticeable amount of play on one end with only 1000 miles(they had bronze races, totally not up to the loading requirements). The articulation angle is pretty low, so you are constantly in danger of binding the shank up and shearing them right off.

BTW - quick rule of thumb... NEVER run a rod end where you can see the casting line on the housing. Pretty big tip that they're the cheapest and lowest quality units on the planet.

[GSXRJJordan]

This would be a great place to mention that I'm stocking top-of-the-line M14 x 1.5 rod ends. Have 6 left from my last order @ very reasonable prices since I buy so many at a time. Cro-moly body, chrome ball, Teflon race. Got seals-it boots in stock too.

I can also get all-stainless heims similar to Auroras best stuff for half of what Aurora wants... Just gotta wait a little bit.

[Def]

Some decent M14x1.5mm rod ends would be the MINIMUM you'd need to run those things, so definitely a "must buy." There's still a risk of snapping the shanks due to low articulation with a typical 3 piece rod end and no reliefs on the spacers to give more angle.

I wouldn't run a stainless steel rod end in this application - its strength is far less than an alloy steel.

[GSXRJJordan]

Originally Posted by Def

Some decent M14x1.5mm rod ends would be the MINIMUM you'd need to run those things, so definitely a "must buy." There's still a risk of snapping the shanks due to low articulation with a typical 3 piece rod end and no reliefs on the spacers to give more angle.

I wouldn't run a stainless steel rod end in this application - its strength is far less than an alloy steel.

Even a cheaply casted heim will be strong enough if it stayed perfectly maintained, right? I've always thought environmental resistance was the primary concern for tie rod ends, not the tensile strength. I figure stainless would have the best resistance of them all? I've never bought any since they're ~3x more expensive than the best alloy joints, even in bulk.

Either way, the cro-moly stuff looks awesome, performs perfectly (I've used these same joints in every possible spot on my S14 for years with no signs of wear), and I offer a lifetime warranty. Hope to stock more in the near future, and am going straight to the manufacturer to have "Jordan Innovations"-branded heims made this year as well in a few popular sizes, M14x1.5 being one of them.

[Def]

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

Even a cheaply casted heim will be strong enough if it stayed perfectly maintained, right? I've always thought environmental resistance was the primary concern for tie rod ends, not the tensile strength. I figure stainless would have the best resistance of them all? I've never bought any since they're ~3x more expensive than the best alloy joints, even in bulk.

Either way, the cro-moly stuff looks awesome, performs perfectly (I've used these same joints in every possible spot on my S14 for years with no signs of wear), and I offer a lifetime warranty. Hope to stock more in the near future, and am going straight to the manufacturer to have "Jordan Innovations"-branded heims made this year as well in a few popular sizes, M14x1.5 being one of them.

Well, most of the rod ends used on S13s are grossly overspeced as far as ultimate radial failure is concerned. So that part is right. But a stronger/stiffer race supports the liner better, and a better liner material resist pound out/distortion better. So it adds up to a rod end that just lasts longer.

The main problem with cast parts, or roughly machined cast parts like this, is questionable tolerances when new(minimal machining to the cast body is apparent). They typically use cheap races or no races at all(steel on steel), so they just can't handle any kind of articulation for very long, even with lubrication.

It all just adds up to a cheap rod end that won't last long at all when used on a car.

[xpinoyxmk]

I have the Dmax coils and they are very nice. They made new versions of the tie rod ends. Ima try them out and let everyone know what happens. How long till i give results? 1000 miles?

Adapter will require cutting of the tie rod. Just not sure how much, trying to find out right now. rhdjapan says 18mm but not sure.