RB25DET or Built KA-T?

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Well if you want to know about me here we go....
First off I've been building/rebuilding NAPS-z/KA for about 4 years... been building engines in general as a hobby since I was 19, I am now 26. I have prior knowledge and experience mostly with datsun 510's, and swapping in KA's and SR's (I'm mostly Old School). I do understand the power the KA produces and so do most of the people in this forum. Or else this wouldn't of been a thread to begin with.
There is no beef as you would think there is with me in this thread, and at some point in my life I would love to drive an RB powered car, personally my opinion is Nissan didn't design the silvia/240 that way, then maybe it shouldn't be.....
I defenitely don't oppose the power output that the RB makes, and at the same time you shouldn't discredit the engineering that goes into the KA either. There are plenty of guy's in the KAT forums that have presented slips of 600WHP KA's and reaching the mid to low 10seconds.... That which would be comparitive to a guy running boost on his RB. Although the worlds fastest 200sx with the RB26det is runnin a 8.98 in the 1/4mile, ( I have the VID just need to find it). Vision Boy productions isn't falling to far behind with there estimated 9second KADET either, (since they've already built one that hit's low 10's.)
As far as comparing PEAK Horse Power Output there is no denying, the RB having 2 additional cylinders will infact make more peak power, but that doesn't mean that you can't allow other engines (KA24 or even the SR22) to compete, especially since all engines make power at different points in the power band (RPM range). In all means of competition you can't just label a specific engine that it is the best suited for all applications, that just isn't the case with the RB, or for any engine for that matter.
I was implying that for the money @ about $3500 I can build a KA24det that can infact compete with an imported rb25det.
No question about it the KA parts are much cheaper, and I specialize in KA, I think I know what I'm talking about.............. RB has it's advantages, but as far as KA being a USDM and having parts readily available, I'de rather chose something that is an easy fix, rather than waiting on downtime for some parts for an RB.

Well know your showing points of info about where your coming from. I should tell you I am not discounting the KA as an engine per se. Nor any other engine. This thread is a poll and thread based on the merits of one or the other though. I am on the side of the RB so I am going to back it. I have a vested interest in doing that.
This also does not mean I hate the KA or discount it. It only means I will point out, what I feel are its weak points and the superior points of the RB. In that sense all my points have been very factual and valid.
I also feel the engine compartment of the S13/S14 is very well suited to the 6 cylinder engine and it is not at all out of place there. Nissan did not put a 6 in the car due to the fact that it would have crowded the market for the Fairlady Z and the Skyline . Sure the Silvia and 180sx did not come with Sixes but the chassis was large enough and well designed enough to handle it.

For all your experience you made some bold statements not rooted in fact but in your belief and conjecture. I called you on these and you did not like it. I am sorry if you took it personally. To me it was a factual debate.
I guess since you took the position of KA and I took the position of RB we got to a point of assuming the other side preached the engine as a sole thing. I do not and have actually said in many threads claim the RB to end all.

On to a little background about me just so you know were I am coming from , funny indeed. I started with Datsun 510's in high school. I was part of Norcal 510 and UFO. I was responsible for the facts in Triple S engine articles in the newsletter. Yes I know Rex Jennett, though I have not talk to him in Years. I built my first pumped L16( 240z flattop pistons, Balanced bottom end, ported and polished 1800 head , Delong Cam,Triple S distrubutor , Weber 40DCOE sidedraft with Hooker headers, at the end of High school in Palo Alto. I also owned a Japanese engine and transmission business Sun Performance Imports. I sold Triple S engines as well as 2TG's and FJ20's among others. In the early eighties I moved on to 240z's. I have owned and played with 10 240z's. I went to De Anza Auto tech at the time I attended it was the third best Auto Technologies school in the nation. I have been involved with 240sx's for over 6 years now. Yes in the early Nineties I took a hiatus from the Automotive world . I am also in the Music Business. In the late nineties I returned to building and modding cars with the 240sx.Why you may ask, because its a world class , low cost sports car platform to start from. If you search here on Zilvia you will see the facts that uphold that statement, as I have stated them before. Do not let someone tell you otherwise our cars are some of the most underrated sports in the U.S. today.

I too have played with KA's as well as SR's . I prefer sixes, I have since the early eighties. Though again the facts I have reiterated throughout this thread are true .
You have been the only person who with no RB experience has taken it upon yourself to state things you know nothing about. The KA is a slow revving engine, if you have SR experience you know thats true. To use the KA's low revving , slow revving long stroke as arguement in favor of it shows you have really not checked out a RB yourself. To claim it makes more bottom end HP earlier on because of it shows your lack of RB experience.
Fact is the RB has an extremely broad flat torque and HP band. Much broader than a KA. There is a reason the RB line in Skylines got christened Godzilla.
To compare a KA to RB is actually a insult to a RB and if you told any Skyline owners that the KA was as good, they would have a real hard laugh and tell your crazy. I am more open minded, but I do agree with the Skyline owners. Overall stock for stock the RB is a vastly superior engine.
If you drove a RB I think you would eat your words on the KA for the sake of the silky smoothness of how they rev.There is no comparing a KA to it in this area, KA's just don't rev that way.

P.S. I think when you resorted to insults it severly weakened your arguement.
We are having a civil discussion and debate here, calling people names and deriding a persons sexual organs of which you know nothing of is immature.

[SimpleS14]

Good posts to most of you....lengthy, but good.

drift freq - A/C....is it possible to get it to work?

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by SimpleS14

Good posts to most of you....lengthy, but good.

drift freq - A/C....is it possible to get it to work?

it is indeed. not really that hard either, main thing is you have to retain the fittings with the lines sticking off them on the RB AC compressor. We can wire the AC no problem. Once you take those fittings to a good AC that has a welder , they can then extend your stock lines to those fittings. I have done this with SR compressors its really not all that different.

[EchoOfSilence]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

it is indeed. not really that hard either, main thing is you have to retain the fittings with the lines sticking off them on the RB AC compressor. We can wire the AC no problem. Once you take those fittings to a good AC that has a welder , they can then extend your stock lines to those fittings. I have done this with SR compressors its really not all that different.

When I go home to LA during my next break, can I get a ride in your car?? haha I'd love to be converted

[Tenchuu]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

I was implying that for the money @ about $3500 I can build a KA24det that can infact compete with an imported rb25det.

link to the $3500 KAT complete kit (includeing ECU tune) producing 300+ WHP and this arguemt will bet better supported. no SS autocrome specials either. OEM quality.

[HolyShiznit]

Tenchu it can be done quite easily. All it consists of is a T3/T4 running around 12-14 psi, utilizing a JWT ECU. Really not that big of a deal but its more a matter of what shape the KA is in.


Also if it hadn't been the gay ass tuning charges I incurred prior to getting a JWT Ecu then yes for 3500 dollars I made 310 whp.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by HolyShiznit

utilizing a JWT ECU.

Actually I was thinking Mega Biki all the way.... Turn your OEM into a standalone for $300, you can't beat such a bargain..........
Leaves more room to buy better QUALITY parts for the KA......

OH wait did I also fail to mention that there is a fully counterweighed crank in the works for the KA??????? Guess not, all you suckers will have to wait for the truth...... Since I guess...... Nothing I say is truthful or factual....LOL

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Actually I was thinking Mega Biki all the way.... Turn your OEM into a standalone for $300, you can't beat such a bargain..........
Leaves more room to buy better QUALITY parts for the KA......

OH wait did I also fail to mention that there is a fully counterweighed crank in the works for the KA??????? Guess not, all you suckers will have to wait for the truth...... Since I guess...... Nothing I say is truthful or factual....LOL

Vinnie , Vinnie , Vinnie , once again you take words out of context. man you seem to be defensive. I have really touched a nerve with you. hahhahhahha , read what I wrote carefully Vinnie.
What I said, is the arguements you were trying to give, to prove me wrong were not rooted in actual fact, just conjecture on your part. You seem to be pretty tweaked about it, since you have to find a way to ridicule the debate or I .
You have some knowledge Vinnie, but your not all knowing like you would like to think you are.
Tell you what Vinnie, why don't you just quit now , before you make yourelf look any worse.

[smokeybear]

ive done research on all the motor swaps, the RB is the best of the best. performance (redline, they have great, way better than a KA, even with a balanced crank) the aftermarket on the KA is tiny compared to the RB, most companies that make performance parts are not too interested in the KA. the weight of the RB is in the tranny, which is more to the center of the car than the front, not changing the driving dynamics very much at all. (your gonna pick up extra weight with your intercooler, turbo, lines, fittings, etc etc when you do a KA-T, maybe not 180 lbs as someone said earlier about the RB vs KA weight difference, but youll be picking up more weight just the same) the KA is an iron block, RB is aluminum. the cost of the KA build is comparable to how much a RB25det stock and installed (mount kit, DIY wiring, etc etc) id be more likely to do a sr20det build because of the aftermarket, but my dreams/plans are all RB powered.

[BigVinnie]

[QUOTE=drift freaq]You have some knowledge Vinnie, but your not all knowing like you would like to think you are.
[QUOTE]

Not one person in the forums is ALL knowledgable. The design of the forum was so that we can all bring what ever knowledge we do have and learn from it together. I understand that your opinion is that the KA is dogshit compared to RB, that is fine with me. I have always bet on the underdogs, and I don't have a problem with that. Guys that actually use there intellegence to build an underdog engine that can compete well should be praised and admired, for building something other than average. But if you read what you wrote, you were implying that I don't know any facts. So whatever...........

RB swap is instant gratification, kinda like masturbating. Any one can swap and be happy.
KA building is like having sex with a hot bitch, you remember the orgasm for a life time.........
That is the difference and that is why I entered the poll weither I drove an RB powered ride or not.....

[HolyShiznit]

Why would you use the Biki-rom? That would add so much time and pain in the ass to the KA-T set-up. We are talking about the easiest way to make HP. A JWT ECU would be cheaper, less problems. Because with the Biki rom you would have to also buy a wideband to tune it, OR go to a dyno. Either of which would put it well over the cost of a JWT ECU. Biki isn't a bad idea but in terms of n00b and cost effectiveness to 300whp it is a little excessive.

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

I understand that your opinion is that the KA is dogshit compared to RB, that is fine with me. I have always bet on the underdogs, and I don't have a problem with that. Guys that actually use there intellegence to build an underdog engine that can compete well should be praised and admired, for building something other than average. But if you read what you wrote, you were implying that I don't know any facts. So whatever...........

RB swap is instant gratification, kinda like masturbating. Any one can swap and be happy.
KA building is like having sex with a hot bitch, you remember the orgasm for a life time.........
That is the difference and that is why I entered the poll weither I drove an RB powered ride or not.....

once again Vinnie, you draw conjecture and result to using profanity to explain a position. I do not hate the KA, nor do I look on it as in your own words"dogshit". You would be putting words in my mouth at best if you were to say that. Do I feel the RB is superior yes. Does that make the KA dogshit? No, its has its place. Your own arguements, bringing out the KA's weaknesses, which you felt were actually strong points, is what made the KA look worse, than I had ever stated. I knew this stuff, but it was not the gist of the discussion.
To say that putting in a RB, is instant gratification is oversimplification at best.
Funny how you relate engine building to having sex, hahahhahhaha. Nothing sexy about building an engine. Do you build your girlfriend? hahhahhaha.
Plus a RB is a much sexier acronym for a girl than a KA would ever be from a tech standpoint . hahhahahhahha
Now driving a car with a hot engine can be like an orgasm and if we are going to use that analogy, than I can gurantee hands down the RB orgasm last s longers and feels better. I like girls that can keep on going. I guess you just don't have that kind of stamina. hahahhahhahhahaha

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by HolyShiznit

Why would you use the Biki-rom? That would add so much time and pain in the ass to the KA-T set-up. We are talking about the easiest way to make HP. A JWT ECU would be cheaper, less problems. Because with the Biki rom you would have to also buy a wideband to tune it, OR go to a dyno. Either of which would put it well over the cost of a JWT ECU. Biki isn't a bad idea but in terms of n00b and cost effectiveness to 300whp it is a little excessive.

I don't think you know how the new mega biki works.......
Besides JWT tunes cost $600.
You don't need a dyno tune, at the biki forums they have programs ready for use on the Mega Biki. JWT doesn't dyno before sending you there ecu do they????????? JWT ecu's usually run rich and you end up buying an SAFC to lean out anyways, it's just more equipment also. Shure tuning an ecu is a hassle, but a standalone that would cost you $1200~$2000, Mega biki offers as a unit to the OEM for $300. You can't beat that price.
Screw Jim Wolfe on any level too expensive by any means no matter how convenient.... Do you know DSM swapping???? For $200 (well maybe $300 depending on where you get it) in parts you can get a used ecu, 1G sensor, CAS, and wide band o2, it is self programming with knock input responce. KA guys are using these ecu's with no programming required to run upto 400CHP on stock internals (about 380WHP). I believe ABEL Racing is using these set up's. Pretty archaic with the wire splicing, but it does a good job.
In my personal opinion Jim Wolfe is a rip off, and there tunes run richer than leaner.

[SimpleS14]

Vinnie - Don't ruin this thread, your taking stuff out of context....its funny but yea


I might go KA-T because I'm going to be more of a DIYer and I'm not looking for a high HP goal since traffic sucks and so do the cops in most areas around me. I can also pass visual emissions inspection with the KA unlike the RB (no EGR, etc.) Another factor is cost, if I was making just a tad bit more and lived in a more suitable area, I'd def go RB. Besides financial cost, there will be cost of downtime. I'm tight on available time and no matter how well I plan things I still have to give myself a cushion time and how I'm planning things out...I'll have more downtime with the RB25.


But remember....I might go KA-T. This is a good thread (and poll), thanks for the responses.

[Tenchuu]

it seems like this has turned into an opinion match between big vinnie and Drift freq. what has facutually been staed so far is:
~RB weighs more, but really isn't a big deal due to the balance of the weight
~RB is more expensive than a DIY KA-t but less expensive than a KA-T kit
~more factory replacement parts/easier to get parts for the KA-T
~More aftermarked parts, but harder to get for the RB
~both can be built up to a reasonable level, but KA-Ts have not had eough support/time in he tuneing scene to tun into the 1000+HP dyno queens that the RBs have, witch means nothing to us drivrs that drive daily for fun.

and that is about this whole thread. did i leave any facts out???

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by Tenchuu

it seems like this has turned into an opinion match between big vinnie and Drift freq. what has facutually been staed so far is:
~RB weighs more, but really isn't a big deal due to the balance of the weight
~RB is more expensive than a DIY KA-t but less expensive than a KA-T kit
~more factory replacement parts/easier to get parts for the KA-T
~More aftermarked parts, but harder to get for the RB
~both can be built up to a reasonable level, but KA-Ts have not had eough support/time in he tuneing scene to tun into the 1000+HP dyno queens that the RBs have, witch means nothing to us drivrs that drive daily for fun.

and that is about this whole thread. did i leave any facts out???

It has only turned into a opinion match, because big vinnie decided to take it that way by posting conjecture as facts. Of course me stating this once again is sure to piss him off. hahhahhahha, but its true.

Fact is for a nice smooth torque machine that can turn in good mileage at low boost the RB cannot be beat.
Fact, I have driven down the street in a 35 mph zone in 5th gear!! revving at 2k!!! The engine was not lugging, in fact if I hit the gas it would just pull.
That spells excellent gas mileage for a 6 cylinder.
Panges, has reported 20 miles to the gallon city driving at 4lbs boost with his RB25 Neo.
If a person is looking for a nice 250whp engine with those mileage figures it can be done for roughly $2500 for the clip $1000 for the install kit $300 for wiring =$3800 plus extras add $1000 for cushion. Mind you Panges is running sidemount not FMIC like me. Nor is he using a Greddy Intake Manifold.
This is doing the install yourself not paying someone to do it.
I have taken people for drives in my car and the first thing they say is wow its really smooth . They are totally expecting a crazy wheel burning machine the minute I let out the clutch.
Fact is, it can be that way, if I wind it up and dump the clutch , but it can also be a completely quite civilized beast, that the cops will not even hear.
I passed no less than 6 cop cars on test runs in Torrance, they never looked at me . Try that with a KAT or SR.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

It has only turned into a opinion match, because big vinnie decided to take it that way by posting conjecture as facts. Of course me stating this once again is sure to piss him off. hahhahhahha, but its true.

Actually your not pissing me off. I'm laughing on the other side of this monitor...
You look like a jerk to everyone else........ Overall a good thread, over the bickering and B.S.......

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Actually your not pissing me off. I'm laughing on the other side of this monitor...
You look like a jerk to everyone else........ Overall a good thread, over the bickering and B.S.......

actually Vinnie , you look like the jerk , you have cussed you have made unfactual posts, you have resorted to trying to insult me. I have not done that in the whole thread. HHHHMMM that looks and sounds like your the jerk and you know what thats what people have been saying to me. Plus you are bickering and spouting B.S, not I .

[Tenchuu]

still waiting for that link to the 3500 complete kit ( to in clude a 1 peice lighter driveshaft and better mounts that you are getting in the 1K included in the RB swap. all i want is facts because i am debating these 2 myself but all the 300+WHP KA kits i saw were 4K + tuneing

[Phlip]

(I AM A TOPIC) <--- please stick to this.

This is a poll, please keep this poll to a simple vote, then you will comment on the merits of one engine versus the other. This will not, any further, become a blanket statement of opinion or insult of any individual's sexual ability or preference, lest I will delete posts and pink people if it continues.
Try me, I have had a rough week

[drift freaq]

well I have stated facts. I have nothing more to say.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

actually Vinnie , you look like the jerk , you have cussed you have made unfactual posts, you have resorted to trying to insult me. I have not done that in the whole thread. HHHHMMM that looks and sounds like your the jerk and you know what thats what people have been saying to me. Plus you are bickering and spouting B.S, not I .

What age are you again resorting to my level then, like I said I'm 26. You have been into inline sixies since the 80's. Why are you pickin on younger guy's. Ever hear the expression.... Pick on someone your own size, (it should be your own age).......LOL
What do you resort too, when I present the foul mouth.....LOL....

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by PHLIP

(I AM A TOPIC) <--- please stick to this.

This is a poll, please keep this poll to a simple vote, then you will comment on the merits of one engine versus the other. This will not, any further, become a blanket statement of opinion or insult of any individual's sexual ability or preference, lest I will delete posts and pink people if it continues.
Try me, I have had a rough week

I agree you should close this thread when people older than me act like fools as well....

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by Tenchuu

still waiting for that link to the 3500 complete kit ( to in clude a 1 peice lighter driveshaft and better mounts that you are getting in the 1K included in the RB swap. all i want is facts because i am debating these 2 myself but all the 300+WHP KA kits i saw were 4K + tuneing

Research..........
Good parts don't come in a (kit) I presented this info to you in another forum....

[SimpleS14]

Vinnie - W.T.F mate?

Phlip - Please don't lock this thread, but delete post if needed.

[Phlip]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

I agree you should close this thread when people older than me act like fools as well....

Vinnie, I was talking to you as too, my suggestion is that EVERYONE back it off with the personal attacks and bickering in this thread, because my decision has been made to not lock the thread, but I am full willing to read back through every post in the thread and pink the first combatant in this pissing contest for a month, if the arguing continues, I promise to do it.

[brunswick240]

great thread, great arguments, and great facts/whatever everything else was...now i dont know which one to go with lol helped me out a lot

[BigVinnie]

HAHA the votes are tied!!!!!

[andrewmp6]

vote isnt tied anymore im gonna run a rb just to be different besides i could build my own rb30det or even a rb30dett cheap rb30 blocks are like 200 us in aus just slap on a rb25 or rb26 head and have a torque monter

[ONYX S-13]

I picked Built KA just cause parts wouldn't be that expensive or hard to find compared to the RB.