3000 people died on 9/11. we killed 100,000+ civilians in Iraq. is that okay?

[word sux]

Originally Posted by codyace

I agree we shouldn't be the world's police, however at what point do we as American's...with our able military and clout, decide enough is enough and step in to help other humans?

That's the fine line though; as American's should we sit back and let them commit genocide? In WWII we were lauded as hero's for doing that in Europe...but now it's not ok?

Dont' write me off as blind; I also hate when we do things in the interest of our own 'need' (as in the current conflicts at their rate) but it would be hard for me to say that we shouldn't have invaded both places...now if you ask me about the fact we've been there for 10 years that's a different story.

we should be more worried about fixing out own country.

how many people did sadam kill over the past 20 years? how many people have we killed in Iraq over the past 10? if we wanted to do remove sadam from power we should have done it in the first gulf war when he was at his worst but since it wasn't financially beneficial for us at the time so we decided not to.

we didn't find out about the concentration camps or at least the extent until we actually started to discover them during the invasion we deployed because we were attacked. The situations are soo different you can't compare. It would be like us finding out about the holocaust then invading 15 years later after it had happened.

[slowvia]

You know I try not to post in here because I usually just get upset at people's ignorance, but let me pose a question to everyone in here;
What justification did we have to enter Iraq? Because we know for a fact that; 1. They didnt have WMD's 2. The Iraqi government played no part in the attacks on 9/11
Was Saddam Hussein a terrible dictator killing his own people? Yes. But we arent the World Police, it isnt our job to stop other governments from doing what theyre gonna do, you dont see us attacking North Korea.
So does/did anyone actually support the idea of sending our own troops into the Middle East to fight a war that had nothing to do with the largest attack on US soil while we let the real terrorists who committed it get away without even trying to find them?

[fullthrottle]

Originally Posted by BustedS13

putting aside the "fuck em all die sand people die" mentality for a minute, is it acceptable for us to do 30 or more 9/11s on a country? if somebody pulled that shit here the rest of the planet would be glass.

edit: they're not directly related, but they're KINDA RELATED.

You are an idiot if you think we killed 100K civilians in iraq lol. Ive been there twice. Its more like a few thousand.

[lflkajfj12123]

@ word sux

i can't read anymore of your posts too ridiculous

Originally Posted by slowvia

You know I try not to post in here because I usually just get upset at people's ignorance, but let me pose a question to everyone in here;
What justification did we have to enter Iraq? Because we know for a fact that; 1. They didnt have WMD's 2. The Iraqi government played no part in the attacks on 9/11
Was Saddam Hussein a terrible dictator killing his own people? Yes. But we arent the World Police, it isnt our job to stop other governments from doing what theyre gonna do, you dont see us attacking North Korea.
So does/did anyone actually support the idea of sending our own troops into the Middle East to fight a war that had nothing to do with the largest attack on US soil while we let the real terrorists who committed it get away without even trying to find them?

1. we are not the world police no one said that. we have alliances with well respected democratic countries around iraq that don't commit genocide on their people and are tired of the corruption leaking into their homes. that is why we decided to intervene in iraq.

2. the real terrorists have no power without state sponsors like iraq, destroy the means and you destroy the ends. you can't fight a war by playing hide and seek, you have to strip them of their resources.

[word sux]

Originally Posted by s0apgun

@ word sux

i can't read anymore of your posts too ridiculous



1. we are not the world police no one said that. we have alliances with well respected democratic countries around iraq that don't commit genocide on their people and are tired of the corruption leaking into their homes. that is why we decided to intervene in iraq.

2. the real terrorists have no power without state sponsors like iraq, destroy the means and you destroy the ends. you can't fight a war by playing hide and seek, you have to strip them of their resources.

so my posts are ridiculous because I like to talk about facts not made up bullshit and post references to my points??


1. I already have shown how the genocide in iraq is not a valid arguement at all for this occupation! They would have used that in the first place instead of making up the whole wmd bs...

2. you are a such an ignorant imbecile I really can't belive the shit you post! Iraq was one of the biggest enemies of al qaeda and other such "terrorist organizations". al qaeda actually declared all shi'a to be heretics! Iraq (a mostly shi'a country) had declared open war on Al qaeda


you should try opening a book every now and then...

[ZilviaKid]

i love going through these

i always get a laugh one way or the other

[lflkajfj12123]

Originally Posted by word sux

so my posts are ridiculous because I like to talk about facts not made up bullshit and post references to my points??


1. I already have shown how the genocide in iraq is not a valid arguement at all for this occupation! They would have used that in the first place instead of making up the whole wmd bs...

2. you are a such an ignorant imbecile I really can't belive the shit you post! Iraq was one of the biggest enemies of al qaeda and other such "terrorist organizations". al qaeda actually declared all shi'a to be heretics! Iraq (a mostly shi'a country) had declared open war on Al qaeda


you should try opening a book every now and then...

you are a fool but your insults sure proved your point better!

1. I never said genocide was the reason we entered iraq and they didn't just make up that hussein had weapons of mass destruction, it was well agreed by many nations that it was very likely hussein was up to no good. just because we didn't find anything doesn't mean we didn't have the right to suspect him considering all the other shady bullshit he ran during his rule. as i said before the reason we intervened was because of iraq's state sponsorship of terrorism against our allie countries, all the other nonsense is just added effect that was especially inflated by the media.

2. I also never said anything about al qaeda and if you honestly think that iraq did not support terrorist groups in the neighboring countries you are the ignorant imbecile. it was very clear saddam was making payments to families of suicide bombers, and is all very well documented. he also provided headquarters, bases, and training camps to terrorists fighting the governments of turkey and iran.

3. if you have such a problem with the united states by all means feel free to move out of this country, maybe iraq would be good for you? seems you're a fanatic of sticking up for them

please continue posting "facts" though

[trinty]

hell na its not all right ....fuck all that shit ...3000 for 100000 people not cool man

[word sux]

Originally Posted by s0apgun

you are a fool but your insults sure proved your point better!

1. I never said genocide was the reason we entered iraq and they didn't just make up that hussein had weapons of mass destruction, it was well agreed by many nations that it was very likely hussein was up to no good. just because we didn't find anything doesn't mean we didn't have the right to suspect him considering all the other shady bullshit he ran during his rule. as i said before the reason we intervened was because of iraq's state sponsorship of terrorism against our allie countries, all the other nonsense is just added effect that was especially inflated by the media.

2. I also never said anything about al qaeda and if you honestly think that iraq did not support terrorist groups in the neighboring countries you are the ignorant imbecile. it was very clear saddam was making payments to families of suicide bombers, and is all very well documented. he also provided headquarters, bases, and training camps to terrorists fighting the governments of turkey and iran.

3. if you have such a problem with the united states by all means feel free to move out of this country, maybe iraq would be good for you? seems you're a fanatic of sticking up for them

please continue posting "facts" though

1. so because he is "up to no good" we should invade country? are you kidding me? did his accomplice's include natasha nogoodnik and boris badkov? I hope that was a really bad joke in realllly bad taste...


2. Give me one example


3. Why is it that whenever you prove someone wrong on american foreign policy they always resort to the "if you dernt like it the geetouwt!" response??

and I will while you continue to spew your b.s.


make one good point please, I am begging you!

[EDacIouSX]

Originally Posted by slowvia

You know I try not to post in here because I usually just get upset at people's ignorance, but let me pose a question to everyone in here;
What justification did we have to enter Iraq? Because we know for a fact that; 1. They didnt have WMD's 2. The Iraqi government played no part in the attacks on 9/11
Was Saddam Hussein a terrible dictator killing his own people? Yes. But we arent the World Police, it isnt our job to stop other governments from doing what theyre gonna do, you dont see us attacking North Korea.
So does/did anyone actually support the idea of sending our own troops into the Middle East to fight a war that had nothing to do with the largest attack on US soil while we let the real terrorists who committed it get away without even trying to find them?

you d/a we did attack north korea. Hence, THE KOREAN WAR.

Also, we don't need any more justification than the fact that Sadam was committing genocide. I do not believe in relative ethics. There is absolute right, and absolute wrong. What he was doing was absolutely wrong therefore it is ok for anyone, regardless of their country of origin, to go into that country and stop Sadam from doing that bs that he was doing.

Originally Posted by word sux

1. so because he is "up to no good" we should invade country? are you kidding me? did his accomplice's include natasha nogoodnik and boris badkov? I hope that was a really bad joke in realllly bad taste...


2. Give me one example


3. Why is it that whenever you prove someone wrong on american foreign policy they always resort to the "if you dernt like it the geetouwt!" response??

and I will while you continue to spew your b.s.


make one good point please, I am begging you!

I'd respond to some of your posts but you seem so out there there's no point. You are one of those relative people. You saying its ok for sadam to do what he's doing is no different than saying its ok for him to come to wherever you live and do exactly what he's doing in his country in your country.

And holy crap you're twice my age. I bet you were a hippie protesting the vietnam war.

[word sux]

Originally Posted by EDacIouSX

you dumbass we did attack north korea. Hence, THE KOREAN WAR.

Also, we don't need any more justification than the fact that Sadam was committing genocide. I do not believe in relative ethics. There is absolute right, and absolute wrong. What he was doing was absolutely wrong therefore it is ok for anyone, regardless of their country of origin, to go into that country and stop Sadam from doing that bs that he was doing.

again the genocide was in the 80's


WHEN WE WERE SUPPORTING AN FUNDING HIM....

[EDacIouSX]

Originally Posted by word sux

1. so because he is "up to no good" we should invade country? are you kidding me? did his accomplice's include natasha nogoodnik and boris badkov? I hope that was a really bad joke in realllly bad taste...


2. Give me one example


3. Why is it that whenever you prove someone wrong on american foreign policy they always resort to the "if you dernt like it the geetouwt!" response??

and I will while you continue to spew your b.s.


make one good point please, I am begging you!

Originally Posted by word sux

again the genocide was in the 80's


WHEN WE WERE SUPPORTING AN FUNDING HIM....

Oh ok, so then there's the reason we have for going into iraq. to correct our own mistake. Didn't you ask what justifies us going in earlier? You kind of answered your own question.

[slowvia]

Originally Posted by EDacIouSX

you d/a we did attack north korea. Hence, THE KOREAN WAR.

Also, we don't need any more justification than the fact that Sadam was committing genocide. I do not believe in relative ethics. There is absolute right, and absolute wrong. What he was doing was absolutely wrong therefore it is ok for anyone, regardless of their country of origin, to go into that country and stop Sadam from doing that bs that he was doing.

Please read a history book.
By attacking a country for committing genocide you are declaring yourself the world police, whether official or not. We didnt enter WW2 because Hitler was killing people, we entered because we were provoked! We didnt enter Cambodia when Khmer Rouge was killing everyone there. And as stated before, if we attacked Iraq because Hussein was committing genocide, they would have said that, and not "they have WMD's!".

[lflkajfj12123]

Originally Posted by word sux

1. so because he is "up to no good" we should invade country? are you kidding me? did his accomplice's include natasha nogoodnik and boris badkov? I hope that was a really bad joke in realllly bad taste...


2. Give me one example


3. Why is it that whenever you prove someone wrong on american foreign policy they always resort to the "if you dernt like it the geetouwt!" response??

and I will while you continue to spew your b.s.


make one good point please, I am begging you!

you just looooooove to bend words and fill your posts with neurotic fluff. when you can sit behind a keyboard and behave let me know, i'd love to continue to tell you you're wrong.

yes get the fuck out of this country you ingrate, of course our foreign policy is not perfect but you and the media make it seem like we are going out and looking for trouble. thats not the case at ALL and after 8 years in iraq i'd say it was a successful mission and hopefully further progression will occur in iraq through democratic rule. this is 2011 and there is no place for governments on this planet that rule through murder and corruption and strip its citizens of their natural rights as human beings. i believe its not our right to police the world, but our responsibility.

you probably don't agree, and i don't care.

[Kingbaby]

I feel I have to say this



"With great power comes great responsibility"

but it sucks we are the only ones...

but, FUCK YEA!

[sidewaysil80]

soap is the man, hats off.

[OBEEWON]

Lest we forget...

Osama was the one who we blamed for 911. NOT Sadam.

So in regards to all things 911 no it was not fair.

I do not care how many people Sadam killed America has no right to go into another sovereign country killing civilians to get one man. All we did was make more enemies.

Also Pakistan killed and announced the death of Bin Lauden in 2007. America was the only country late to the party.


Also real talk Soap. I want to know why you believe its our responsibility to police the world. There is not a one world government, belief system, custom, currency, way of life etc.

IF anything the United Nations should police the world not ONE nation in the form of America. There has never been one nation policing the world. Any nation that was close in history participated in genocide, mass murders, corruption EACH and every single time. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Rome, HRE, Britain. Everytime one of those world police stretched itself what happened?

P.S. - America was not founded as a Democracy but a Republic. So this BS about bringing democracy to every country is not even accurate, much less our job. If a country wants to have a king, royal blood line who are we to tell them otherwise? We don't even own this land we launch these attacks from. So by our own standards someone should punch us in the nuts and free the Native American's.

[VNG704]

Originally Posted by ineedone

Not sure if this is still the case but as of a couple years ago only something like 5% of the Iraqi population had access to internet. If you were from one of the more remote areas doubt you would even knew white people existed.

From what I have heard, some Afghany tribes think the US military are just aliens from outer space flying around blowing shit up. Now imagine how scared to shit you would be if that was your world.

Good point but and slightly off topic but that's soo like the commercials to think only "white people" are in the military. There's alot of good points in this thread. I think a really good one is the third post. I'll keep my opinions out of here and I just let the leaders do their job.

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by VNG704

Good point but and slightly off topic but that's soo like the commercials to think only "white people" are in the military. There's alot of good points in this thread. I think a really good one is the third post. I'll keep my opinions out of here and I just let the leaders do their job.

Well they obviously knew brown people existed! haha, Did not mean to come off sounding like only white people are in the military... but I guess I set myself up for that one.

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

Lest we forget...

Osama was the one who we blamed for 911. NOT Sadam.

So in regards to all things 911 no it was not fair.

I do not care how many people Sadam killed America has no right to go into another sovereign country killing civilians to get one man. All we did was make more enemies.

Man... or Oil? Or if you want to be even more cynical... neo-colonialization. We now have a military base smack dab in the middle east the size of the Vatican. Even with troop pull downs, the United States will, for the foreseeable future, have a permanent presence in the middle east.

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

Also Pakistan killed and announced the death of Bin Lauden in 2007. America was the only country late to the party.

Please do not tell me you are a Alex Jones fan... the kool-aid involved in all of that is way to strong.

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

IF anything the United Nations should police the world not ONE nation in the form of America. There has never been one nation policing the world. Any nation that was close in history participated in genocide, mass murders, corruption EACH and every single time. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Rome, HRE, Britain. Everytime one of those world police stretched itself what happened?

P.S. - America was not founded as a Democracy but a Republic. So this BS about bringing democracy to every country is not even accurate, much less our job. If a country wants to have a king, royal blood line who are we to tell them otherwise? We don't even own this land we launch these attacks from. So by our own standards someone should punch us in the nuts and free the Native American's.

The United Nations is primarily a United States organization. So by proxy, they essentially carry out whatever foreign policy the United States wants. Not to mention if they ever tried anything that we truly disapproved of, we have the power to veto (and I believe the only sole country with that power). The United States is the worlds police, however, 911 only picks up when you got something they want. No need to get into the multiple genocides the United States and the United Nations has ignored or even profited off of, but if you do not have oil to pay the piper, better hunker down and hope for the best.

If anyone did punch our nuts, our bruised balls would just give them small pox.

[bllabong89]

If everyone feels like our government is do wrong and our military branches are doing terrible things...leave. Why would you stay somewhere that does horrific things.

That's right, you can vote and do this thing called protest and have whatever religion you want and live a comfortable life. Can you do that in other countries? If so, go there.

Do you ever notice in the media that they have a military or a government or group of people killing people that are protesting or not living by their set means? The answer is yes. If that is a better place to you than be my guest and leave because I don't want to fight for people that are so blind to the kind of life they can live here.

I would like to see some of you go down range and try to "help" their country and not be killed for being an outcast. Good luck

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by bllabong89

If everyone feels like our government is do wrong and our military branches are doing terrible things...leave. Why would you stay somewhere that does horrific things.

That's right, you can vote and do this thing called protest and have whatever religion you want and live a comfortable life. Can you do that in other countries? If so, go there.

Do you ever notice in the media that they have a military or a government or group of people killing people that are protesting or not living by their set means? The answer is yes. If that is a better place to you than be my guest and leave because I don't want to fight for people that are so blind to the kind of life they can live here.

I would like to see some of you go down range and try to "help" their country and not be killed for being an outcast. Good luck

There is a huge distinction between service members and policies. You can support one without supporting the other. Just sayin...

[OBEEWON]

Originally Posted by ineedone

Man... or Oil? Or if you want to be even more cynical... neo-colonialization. We now have a military base smack dab in the middle east the size of the Vatican. Even with troop pull downs, the United States will, for the foreseeable future, have a permanent presence in the middle east.

I was not even going to stir that pot. Truck drivers are getting paid 3x what soldiers get paid over there to cart oil around.

Originally Posted by ineedone

Please do not tell me you are a Alex Jones fan... the kool-aid involved in all of that is way to strong.

Oh hell no. That man is 1. Crazy 2. Paid by the government in my opinion. Of course I have no proof. I didn't even know he had anything to say on the matter.

For that many loved him, but of course there was a small minority who wanted him gone.

Fact of the matter is Momar was not the best, but he did many great things for his people.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by word sux

2. Give me one example

Our unit pretty much traveled everywhere from Tikrit area North to the turkish border, and East too the Iranian Border (we were out of Kirkuk) The recon guys were always finding Turkish training camps up north that were beig used to train them against the Kurds who lived in south Turkey and North Iraq. It was very common to get reports at even on our level of what they found along routes, and what they were used for, so we found it funny that there was harboring of terrorists, albiet not the same 'baddies' we were chasing.

Originally Posted by word sux

3. Why is it that whenever you prove someone wrong on american foreign policy they always resort to the "if you dernt like it the geetouwt!" response??

I can't say I'm a fan of that 'move to canada' rebuttle either...

[codyace]

Originally Posted by ineedone

Even with troop pull downs, the United States will, for the foreseeable future, have a permanent presence in the middle east.

Wait are we talking about In Iraq or in General....becuase we always have in the middle east, it's called Isarel

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by codyace

Wait are we talking about In Iraq or in General....becuase we always have in the middle east, it's called Isarel

True, but not analogous. Israel is an ally that wants the United States there. Not so much for the rest of the Middle East. I would have to imagine the capabilities of the two are a tad bit different as well.

Originally Posted by codyace

Our unit pretty much traveled everywhere from Tikrit area North to the turkish border, and East too the Iranian Border (we were out of Kirkuk) The recon guys were always finding Turkish training camps up north that were beig used to train them against the Kurds who lived in south Turkey and North Iraq. It was very common to get reports at even on our level of what they found along routes, and what they were used for, so we found it funny that there was harboring of terrorists, albiet not the same 'baddies' we were chasing.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the United States through certain agencies funded most of that regions "terrorist".

[lflkajfj12123]

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

Also real talk Soap. I want to know why you believe its our responsibility to police the world. There is not a one world government, belief system, custom, currency, way of life etc.

I agree completely with this sentiment. Let me quote Ayn Rand... "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."

While there are many different belief systems, there is only one type of government that exists to protect its citizens. Totalitarian and dictatorship governments have no place in human life. We are defined by our ability to think freely and to pursue our lives however we choose. Stripping man kind of its inherent rights of existence is the worst crime any civilization could commit.

That is why I believe it is our responsibility and any other country who takes pride in freedom, to police the creation of governments that not only destroys lives of it citizens but also their ability to think and act as individuals. Even if that means being called the bullies of the world.

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

IF anything the United Nations should police the world not ONE nation in the form of America. There has never been one nation policing the world. Any nation that was close in history participated in genocide, mass murders, corruption EACH and every single time. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Rome, HRE, Britain. Everytime one of those world police stretched itself what happened?

As ineedone said, USA has the most clout in the UN and also runs the world bank, the ones who fund the decisions of the UN. I don't believe we should set up a world police anyways it is not needed, but I do believe countries like the USA should intervene if needed on situations such as stripping the power of countries that do not grant its citizens freedom and to prevent future ones from coming into existence. Terrorism wouldn't be any kind of an issue if it weren't for governments like saddams that- don't play by the rules and support these radical groups for their own benefit.

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

P.S. - America was not founded as a Democracy but a Republic. So this BS about bringing democracy to every country is not even accurate, much less our job. If a country wants to have a king, royal blood line who are we to tell them otherwise? We don't even own this land we launch these attacks from. So by our own standards someone should punch us in the nuts and free the Native American's.

I understand what you're getting at but more or less you are bending words there. We were founded as republic when that was what important for our nation at the time as it was heavily split by faction, it is now unimportant to call it that and our government today exists as a democratic republic, the government of the say of the people. Whatever the terminology, in the modern world most governments even with a king or royal blood line behave mostly as a democratic rule where the peoples voice is heard.

I also agree America did some pretty shitty things in the way past and sometimes goes without notice. We murdered lots of people and behaved as criminals of the world. However, thats not how this country exists today. It's like saying we should condemn germany now for at a time being ruled by the nazi party. We have had our moments to say the least. Still doesn't stop me from saying that today this is the best country on earth.

[Brian]

Usa #1


jdam jdam jdam jdam jdam jdam

[Matej]

There is so much going on behind the curtain that the ordinary person does not know about that I now think it pointless to take any side, as doing so just makes me feel like I am playing into the black or white game.
Such as when thirty years later the US government admitted that the entire incident that pushed America into the Vietnam War was made up.
Or how it was discovered that US officials assisted high-ranking Nazis start new lives in trade for technological secrets.
I only wonder what we will know about the present twenty or thirty years from now.

In the end, no government is perfect, since they are made up of people, and people will be people.

[lflkajfj12123]

Well put Matej

Operation Paperclip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

also jdm