Occupy Wall Street vs. Tea Party

[imotion s14]

Originally Posted by revcyanide

the amount of stupidity in this thread from both sides is astounding.

This is why nothing will ever change in this country, politics have become extreme left, or extreme right. Absolutely no compromise.

You think the Founders started a war to fight for compromise?

If anything there is too much compromise. Too much bi-partisanship. They put on a dog and pony show to show that they're different on issues that really doesn't even matter. But on important issues they're all on the same page.

Like the Democrats are all against the war but vote to fund it every time because when a vote comes up they compromise. Vice versa with the Republicans.

Tea party has some great ideas, and some fucking dumb as shit ones. Wanting a government shutdown during a recession is a sure fire way to shoot us headfirst into a depression.

They need to be shut down. Government needs to get the hell out of the way and let the markets handle it. All they're doing is squandering what little resources we have left.

[T chop]

Originally Posted by revcyanide

What this country needs, is bipartisan-ship again. we need politicians who can agree on things, Who can actually work out a damn budget, who can agree to cut spending AND increase revenue through taxes (our taxes are the lowest they have been in 50+ years.)

It will never happen with the two party system though. In Canada it sometimes happens only because there is usually 3-4 parties with a decent amount of seats, although now there is really only 3 decent parties.

[kingkilburn]

It will never happen when the people in DC refuse to REPRESENT THEIR CONSTITUENCIES.

Here in the central valley we need water but the representatives from here continually vote to keep the water away. The most fertile land in the world is left barren and our water is sent to LA and the dams are never allowed to fill to capacity.

[mantas]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

It will never happen when the people in DC refuse to REPRESENT THEIR CONSTITUENCIES.

Here in the central valley we need water but the representatives from here continually vote to keep the water away. The most fertile land in the world is left barren and our water is sent to LA and the dams are never allowed to fill to capacity.

That's not right. Definitely not right, because I see a-holes wasting water left and right in LA, and your crops go to waste because some idiots here can't shut off the faucets or the garden hoses. The bums that patrol my neighborhood have left my garden hose on 3 times and it has flooded half a city block (not exaggerating), the whole alley was flooded for about 2 blocks. Yet my idiot neighbors can't turn it off.

There are two solutions to fix D.C. one is to hang them all, and re-elect, or stop lobbying and they would leave at will.

[inopsey]

Originally Posted by RJF

Wall Street Heroes

what a bunch of bs. a lot of the reasoning behind the occupy mindset (original) is there are hundreds of thousands of university educated people (and i dont mean arts degrees or other paper hat majors) unemployed. there are no desks to occupy because there are no jobs...........

[codyace]

""After two solid months of keeping my mouth shut, I just have to say something. To all of you who are involved in the various "Occupy" movements or who are supportive of said groups: Please. Stop. Now. I've seen pictures of these people and am embarrassed that most of them appear to be my age. I am sad that my generation will forever be labeled as "Generation Entitlement" and that my peers are so incredibly ignorant that they will latch on to any cause without a rational explanation for what it actually stands for.

I get it, capitalism ultimately results in a very rich few, a very poor few, and a huge majority of people who fall somewhere in between. Yet, when I read the "objectives" of this wannabe revolution, it sounds to me like you people are clamoring for a socialist culture and quoting Marx and Lenin along the way. Let's ask every single country who has ever attempted that how well it turns out?

I have never, in my entire life, had trouble finding a job and here's why: I have a good work ethic, I have the ability to socially interact with other humans, and I hold myself to a higher standard. Get off the streets and make something of yourselves. What do you possibly think your meager little protests are going to accomplish? I smile a little bit every time I see a picture of some 26-year-old "adult" who never grew up after college being dragged across the pavement by his backpack.

You are not going to bring about change by waving your lighters in the air and blocking the path for productive members of society to get to work, you're only going to get a face full of teargas in the end. Rationalize your thoughts, change your own life, and don't get swept up in the ignorant masses around you. You're so busy trying to work up a solution, when the fact of the matter is that you ARE the problem."


One of my friends had wrote this, thought it was fitting.

Originally Posted by inopsey

what a bunch of bs. a lot of the reasoning behind the occupy mindset (original) is there are hundreds of thousands of university educated people (and i dont mean arts degrees or other paper hat majors) unemployed. there are no desks to occupy because there are no jobs...........

While true, there are still countless jobs out there...problem is many graduates feel 'too good' to work them (even if temporary). The numbers of unemployment vs UNDERemployment are staggering...as in, there are capable workers out there, and jobs out there, but for some reason they are not filled.

[BustedS13]

Originally Posted by imotion s14

If anything there is too much compromise. Too much bi-partisanship.

you clearly haven't been paying attention for the past several years.

...and when the country is split 50/50 on pretty much any topic under the sun, how is compromise a bad thing?

[revcyanide]

Originally Posted by imotion s14

They need to be shut down. Government needs to get the hell out of the way and let the markets handle it. All they're doing is squandering what little resources we have left.

You really have 0 idea about how economics work do you?

A government shutdown in a recession is fucking STUPID.
I don't think you understand what a fucking government shutdown means like all the other tea party idiots. "TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT ARGGGG GET RID OF EVERYTHING!!"


Heres how this scenario plays out.

Government shuts down.

Government employees do not get paid for however long it is shut down, probably would be one whole paycheck.
lots of government employees live pay-check to paycheck, like my parents for example. They save where they can but for some people it is not possible.

Now they cannot pay their bills. Now the us in the military do not get paid for our jobs while the idiots in congress make 250K debating over funding planned parenthood.


THEN GUESS WHAT HAPPENS?

we all still worked all that time, We all still get paid, once the gov starts back up, that money goes right back out, except now, it is the money we are owed + our next paycheck. Yup right after a government shutdown, to hand out that much money would turn out GREAT! especially if it stayed shut don't for a very extended period (a month) However unlikely, this situation would CRIPPLE our current fragile economy.



i agree some of the OWS protesters are idiots, but for every one of them, there is an idiot in the tea party who thinks a government shut down during a recession is a great idea.



It's also REALLY easy for people in small business or working in the corporate world to want to shut it down, if you actually work for the gov, you'd see how much this affects people, congress still gets paid, the pres still gets paid, NOTHING changes, you only hurt the people who work hard for a paycheck.

*edit, on top of this, i have friends overseas, supporting families here, in a war-zone. a government shutdown means the could not get paid.
if you think that is a great idea, fuck you.

[revcyanide]

Originally Posted by BustedS13

you clearly haven't been paying attention for the past several years.

...and when the country is split 50/50 on pretty much any topic under the sun, how is compromise a bad thing?

especially when we cant even make a fucking budget because we are too busy arguing about abortion.

[Carbomb]

Stop it b: Felonious Munk performs Pay Your Bills (Live) - YouTube

[RJF]

Get your facts straight....the Tea Party doesn't want a Government shutdown, they want smaller government and the government to get out of every aspect of our lives.

Here's another example of government trying to control every aspect of our lives:

Last week, the California congresswoman Pelosi hit five cities in five days, barnstorming for money to try to win the 25 more seats it would take to regain control. And if that happens — or when, according to her — at the top of her to-do list, she says, will be “doing for child care what we did for health-care reform” — pushing comprehensive change.

Can you imagine children being brain-washed under PelosiCare?

[kingkilburn]

Originally Posted by revcyanide

especially when we cant even make a fucking budget because we are too busy arguing about abortion.

They talk about abortion to push off talking about shit that matters. It get's the idiot masses all up in arms and they get to act like the heroes of morality and Christendom.

[revcyanide]

Originally Posted by RJF

Get your facts straight....the Tea Party doesn't want a Government shutdown, they want smaller government and the government to get out of every aspect of our lives.

Here's another example of government trying to control every aspect of our lives:

Last week, the California congresswoman Pelosi hit five cities in five days, barnstorming for money to try to win the 25 more seats it would take to regain control. And if that happens — or when, according to her — at the top of her to-do list, she says, will be “doing for child care what we did for health-care reform” — pushing comprehensive change.

Can you imagine children being brain-washed under PelosiCare?

During the government shutdown scare i recall tea party activists chanting "shut er down"



If every tea party member is going to believe the way the media portrays OWS, I am gonna go ahead and believe how the media portrays the tea party.

[imotion s14]

Originally Posted by BustedS13

you clearly haven't been paying attention for the past several years.

...and when the country is split 50/50 on pretty much any topic under the sun, how is compromise a bad thing?

I been paying attention to real issues.

[TheWolf]

Originally Posted by revcyanide

You really have 0 idea about how economics work do you?


*edit, on top of this, i have friends overseas, supporting families here, in a war-zone. a government shutdown means the could not get paid.
if you think that is a great idea, fuck you.

I think it's the best idea to shut it down. If it means that troops don't get paid, good. If it means that your parents living paycheck to paycheck, can't pay their bills, even better. I think it's exactly what the country needs. It's the true result of failed policies for years. "Bankruptcy happens slowly and then all at once." Getting a bounced check in the mail from their employer is the true sign that endless spending is a failed plan. It would make them realize how insecure their job really is, and how broke uncle sam is. No soldier wants to go without pay but there's no point in defending america's "interests" abroad if america is crumbling at home. Lets face it, if there's no battles to fight, there's no reason to keep that soldier employed either.

Lets look at what lead up to this "shutdown" and what has been fixed since then.

The shutdown brought to the forefront of how perilous the endless gov't borrowing will become. So congress made a deal. We're going to reign in spending, create a super committee, vote on their proposal or accept drastic cuts, vote of a balanced budget ammendment and promise to be more fiscally responsible in exchange for a debt ceiling increase.

What did we get for that increase?

Reign in spending? Another 1.2 Trillion in debt, most of that increase is already spent and unless the revenues start rolling it, god forbid they may have to revisit the issue before an election because they're blowing it so fast. The Senate still has not brought forth a budget after 3 years. That's pretty much just a given. No longer will any democratic senator put their name on any document that says we are financially on a good course and here's our plan. The worlds largest country need a budget??? Bah. We're to good at borrowing money to need one of those. Mark my words, this january, you'll start seeing the IRS "rationing" out tax returns, aka stalling so they can keep as much interest as possible off of them.

The super committee. 6 and 6. After 3 months of time, they're trying to wrap up a set of ideas onto some paper like a grade school kid writing his book report the night before it's due. This is the united states of america. not some college flunky experiment. Dragging some shit together right before it's due in hopes that it will fly is inexcusable. What kind of example does that set? Would any business or industry tolerate that level of incompetence or lack of drive?

The trigger. When this shit laden super committee drags up some POS document that promises fake savings and unrealistic job growth to "save" money, these across the board cuts will kick in to make savings. Well not really, both sides have said that they will "unlegislate" the trigger that was part of the debt ceiling deal because neither side wants the trigger.

Balanced budget amendment. No vote yet, no scheduled vote yet, avoiding it like the plague again.

Fiscally responsible? They got the money, blew it in record time, have nothing to show for it, and are on their way to ask for more.

What are they going to do next time the debt ceiling is reached? Promise us this time with sugar on top that they're going to be good? It's like a drug addict hitting you up for money to buy more drugs and promising to pay you "next time". Eventually you're just going to have to say NO. By saying NO MORE, SHUT IT DOWN. We are essentially forcing the gov't to make the hard decisions. It either needs to say. Listen we need 40% more taxes from everyone to keep this level of spending or we've got to cut spending by 40% because we're out of control. Yes, they may decide that your parents aren't important to the federal government's function. They may decide that we don't need 120,000 soldiers in Afghanistan but at some point those decisions MUST be made. You can't keep putting it off because it's politically unpopular. It's like the dog shit in the living room, and everyone just ignores it because they don't want to clean it up. It's not glamorous, but it must be done or the whole place begins to smell like shit.

If you think, on the next debt ceiling increase, people are just going to roll over and agree again then you're wrong. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. It's not going to happen again.

I god honestly would hate to have to face people in my district and say "Listen, I know we had to back down school days from 5 to 4, cut teachers, and defund your kids education, but it's for a good cause. See we need to win a popularity contest in some shithole on the other side of the planet and it's really important or we won't win prom queen of earth this year if they don't like us. So instead of saving money for your retirement and investing in your kids education, we gave it to pakistan because it's really important for them to like us and be our friend. Thanks and vote for me again" - Your favorite congressman.

The system is broken. There is no fixing it. All you can do is shut it down. There's no rationalizing with a junkie. There's no logic. You can shut him down, send him to a psych facility in hopes of rehab but any monies you give him are just going to enable him to continue his drug abusive lifestyle. Politicians don't want to fix the system, they want to keep getting enabled to continue to the next term and they've proven time and time again, you can not trust their words nor their actions.

[RJF]

God bless our Military men and women.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by TheWolf

The system is broken. There is no fixing it.

While this may sound rhetorical, do you really think it's the system, or the lack of accountibility in the system? I often have a tough time with questions like this as while as corrupt as people paint the picture, I gotta look past the obvious and see 'why' it's the way it is. I can't write a system off as corrupt if it's being manipulated by those under it's control.

[inopsey]

the problem with the system is that it is flawed by design; it poses the frankinstein problem. http://www.jstor.org/stable/3749221 it must continually be fed and allowed to grow, and when it reaches the limits of growth it will try to overtake its creator, just like the movie. both capitalism and our technological society suffer from this problem.

(sorry about not being able to find the full paper for free online, im sure if anyone is interested they will find the entire article to read. )

[TheWolf]

Originally Posted by codyace

While this may sound rhetorical, do you really think it's the system, or the lack of accountibility in the system? I often have a tough time with questions like this as while as corrupt as people paint the picture, I gotta look past the obvious and see 'why' it's the way it is. I can't write a system off as corrupt if it's being manipulated by those under it's control.

There was an interesting story told by a friend of mine. He calls it the story of "Goodwill". Back in the 1800's when politicians used to ride their districts and talk one on one with their constituents. A politician rode up to an old farm house of a long time supporter. They engaged in friendly conversation and the old man on the farm let the congressman know that he would not be supporting him this year. When asked why? He said it was because he voted to help a poor family in washington. See, 3 blocks from the nations capitol, a terrible fire had started on christmas eve. It had caused several houses to burn down and 3 families were left in the snow with no clothes, or roofs over their heads, the children's presents and everything was gone in the fire. Feeling that it would be terrible to ignore their plight, congressmen took up the cause and passed a small appropriations bill to provide them with a christmas dinner and one present for each of the kids as a gesture of goodwill. It was a very trivial amount for this great nation and the families appreciated it much but the farmer was very angry about it. Not about helping the families but how politicians utilized the federal treasury for "goodwill". He said that started a dangerous precedent. The gov't was not in the charity business and never should be, it's business was that of running the country. There were plenty of charitable organizations that could help the poor and congressman could have petitioned some of the wealthy citizens in the capitals area to assist. The politician assured the man that it was a one time thing and the government would not get involved in charity. Alas, the story of the christmas eve family spread, and family after family began to petition their congressmen for help after disasters. Politicians began utilizing the treasury to help their own districts and drum up good press for "goodwill" projects. Whether it be fire, flood, or natural disaster, someone was there that wanted to get re-elected and was willing to utilize the treasury for that purpose. Since then, thousands of programs have been instituted in the name of "goodwill". We ran out of good things to do for our own people that we have to help out other nations people as well. We helped the english, the french, the germans, the koreans, the vietnamese, the japanese, the chinese, the saudi's, the kuwaities, the afganies, the somalis, the israelies, etc etc. All in the name of "goodwill". When we can't help them out with a specific need, we just write them a check and let them use it ad lib for aid as "goodwill". There are now political groups that state, americans need to give more because they haven't been given enough. America has gone into so much debt from giving and giving and giving. America is not selfish but people have become to expect these gifts and whole political parties have become experts at dolling out these gifts for favors and that there's whole groups that will represent you for a fee, so you can get even better gifts. In the end, what the farmer feared came true.

Is the system broken? Can it be fixed?
What is important for someone, is not important for the other. The federal government has no business trying to determine or evaluate "need" or "goodwill". Never once has the system ever spent less than it took in, or voluntarily changed its stance from spending everything. The government is only limited by the size of it's ever expanding purse and just like someone living paycheck to paycheck, they spend every dime they take in and then some, showing rampant disregard for fiscal responsibility. It's not magic that they always end up utilizing every dime of money. It's by design. If it's there they will spend it. You can not fix the system by giving it more money because they will just keep finding more and more ways of spending it. In the end, when the money supply dries up, they will then drag the rich captains of industry to the altars of sacrifice. The ones who have money are now the problem. They don't give enough of it to us for our "goodwill" projects. In the end, when the few are sacrificed for the good of the many, all will be lost.

[Walperstyle]

I'm on a keyboard. I will save the universe. (insert multiple paragraphs of how smart I think I am)

[Walperstyle]

Make note of how 'power' is spelled on that sign at the wall street protest. These people are university educated?

[kingkilburn]

Shall I post a pic of 20 year olds just a few years prior celebrating Hitler as a hero? How about 20 year olds protesting in Hoovervilles after the feds refused to pay what they owed? Would 20 year olds gunning down innocent people in south east asia be appropriate?

[RJF]

Pepperspray FTW

[kingkilburn]

Remember you feel this way next time people are protesting something you support.

Police brutality is never an ok thing and pepper spraying a bunch of intently non violent protesters is definitely over the line.

[Matej]

This 'conflict' makes me second-hand embarrassed. Hippies always ruin every cause they associate themselves with, thus protests in the US are always full of weirdos and drum circles and people with marijuana symbols on their shirts, and the people on the other side such as RJF are just as annoying, posting all this horribly cheesy self-righteous propaganda which makes me want to claw my eyes out.

And Democrat or Tea Party, both only want what will benefit their party before or if ever they even consider the good of the nation/people/world as a whole. All they do is cleverly disguise their own interests as issues that the public will care about. In an ideal system of government, there would be no such thing as parties representing many issues at once; everyone would take sides on each major issue individually instead of being influenced to choose the side their party is on.

[mantas]

Originally Posted by Walperstyle

I'm on a keyboard. I will save the universe. (insert multiple paragraphs of how smart I think I am)

Haha. Word!

[word sux]

The amount of ignorance in this thread is astounding...

[Walperstyle]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Shall I post a pic of 20 year olds just a few years prior celebrating Hitler as a hero? How about 20 year olds protesting in Hoovervilles after the feds refused to pay what they owed? Would 20 year olds gunning down innocent people in south east asia be appropriate?

The pope was hitler youth... but I guess he's 'the man' too and 'evil'. Also there is a big difference between nazi propaganda films and our open internet media today. Note: even those big bad nazi's were making change in the early 30's. They certainly didn't do it by protesting. They did it by using the system to make change.

Unfortunately there is a whole generation of people that are believing the new media (internet) as 'fact' too. Have you read youtube comments on anything political? This has me very concerned being the people uploading the videos are still young and have not experienced the world at all, yet speak as if they know everything.

at least in other situations you mentioned, kids are trying to overthrow a government, instead of being disorganized, costing tax payer more money, and leaving trash everywhere. And who's to say the other side is 'innocent', you? give me a break. Another person not there, passing judgment on a situation you are not involved in.

The first thing this occupy movement lacked was leadership. The second, was a plan.

Big difference between revolution, and crybaby unorganized yelling about random ideals

[kingkilburn]

The NAZI party's bread and butter is protesting, riots, and all around thugery. They got their early guys voted in the same way the early American political machine did. Did't vote for our guy, we'll beat you up.


None of this(or what you posted as a response to my prior post) has anything to do with my point.

[Walperstyle]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

The NAZI party's bread and butter is protesting, riots, and all around thugery. They got their early guys voted in the same way the early American political machine did. Did't vote for our guy, we'll beat you up.

The NAZI party had an objective and managed to obtain a vote.

Difference; I see no Occupy protestors running for office. I do see politicians taking sides to try to win a youth vote next election. Its still unorganized bs.

Anyone else watch the live stream from Oakland?