Mosque being built near Ground Zero

[HalveBlue]

Originally Posted by ineedone

Okay, so you are fine with calling the KKK Christians?

Find me one thing in Islam that supports Terrorism. They followed a perverted teaching of Islam, that is not Islam.

You need to slow your row there, hot shot.

You're reasoning skills are off.

I never stated that all Muslims are terrorist. Nor did I say that Islam sponsors terrorism.

The fact remains, the 9/11 attacks were planned and executed by an extremist group of fundamentalist Wahhabist.

Your statement seems to suggest that you are not familiar with what Al-Qaeda as organization is, or what it's intent is.

FWIW, I think the Muslim community has every right to build a mosque/community center on or near ground zero.

[5pecialist]

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

I think the Muslim community has every right to build a mosque/community center on or near ground zero.

The Qur'an calls for a mosque to be built on the sites of their victories. You don't think this would cause even more "misunderstandings"?

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

You need to slow your row there, hot shot.

You're reasoning skills are off.

I never stated that all Muslims are terrorist. Nor did I say that Islam sponsors terrorism.

The fact remains, the 9/11 attacks were planned and executed by an extremist group of fundamentalist Wahhabist.

Your statement seems to suggest that you are not familiar with what Al-Qaeda as organization is, or what it's intent is.

FWIW, I think the Muslim community has every right to build a mosque/community center on or near ground zero.

That was not my reasoning, I was following the reasoning of others who were saying Al-Qaeda were Muslims. You are absolutely correct, they were fundamentalist Wahhabist, that is not Islam (both supporters and detractors of Wahhabism agree to this).

Al-Qaeda are terrorist, that is their intent. It is about power and money. Remember the Mujahideen? That is where the roots of Al-Qeada are. A rebel army that was financed by rich Saudi's (and the US).

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by 5pecialist

The Qur'an calls for a mosque to be built on the sites of their victories. You don't think this would cause even more "misunderstandings"?

Does it? where?


Park51 will grow into a world-class community center, planned to include the following facilities:

* outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)
* a 500-seat auditorium
* a restaurant and culinary school
* cultural amenities including exhibitions
* education programs
* a library, reading room and art studios
* childcare services
* a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community
* a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all

[HalveBlue]

Originally Posted by 5pecialist

The Qur'an calls for a mosque to be built on the sites of their victories. You don't think this would cause even more "misunderstandings"?

The problem with your logic is 1) You're equating all Muslim with those factions seeking the demise of the United States, and 2) even if that was the case, you have no evidence to prove that this is the case, other than perhaps an abstract verse from the Qur'an. And that won't hold up in court.

We live in a nation of laws. The construction of a mosque/community center near ground zero breaks no laws.

Muslims citizens are protected by the Constitution of the US as much as any other religious group.

Originally Posted by ineedone

That was not my reasoning, I was following the reasoning of others who were saying Al-Qaeda were Muslims. You are absolutely correct, they were fundamentalist Wahhabist, that is not Islam (both supporters and detractors of Wahhabism agree to this).

Al-Qaeda are terrorist, that is their intent. It is about power and money. Remember the Mujahideen? That is where the roots of Al-Qeada are. A rebel army that was financed by rich Saudi's (and the US).

So Wahhabism isn't a part of Islam, eh? Perhaps you should tell that 27 million + Saudis, that majority of whom follow Wahhabist teachings.

Also, terrorism is a means, not an end.

Also, I really doubt that Al-Qaeda's goals are "power and money". More like the establishment of a caliphate.

Osama bin-Laden comes from one of the richest families in the world and has access to millions, maybe billions of dollars.

If money and power are the ultimate goal he sure chose the most difficult path.

Also, you're simplifying the relationship between Al-Qaeda, the Mujaheddin, the Taliban, and the US.

[dat411kid]

This kind of stupidity....Affirms my belief of evil in politics...

I mean really....This idea really isn't a smart one for obvious reasons....

It boggles my mind that anyone of sound mind, could think this up to be a good idea. With good intent.

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

So Wahhabism isn't a part of Islam, eh? Perhaps you should tell that 27 million + Saudis, that majority of whom follow Wahhabist teachings.

I spoke wrong, It is almost impossible to parse out all the different "teachings" of Islam. Even when trying to "define" Wahhabism, there are many different sects of that as well. I am guessing that is more of a philosophical debate though. We would have to start getting into Sunni/Shiite, Salaf, and the many different books/teachings each use. I do not know enough about all of it to really separate which is what.

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

Also, terrorism is a means, not an end.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

Also, I really doubt that Al-Qaeda's goals are "power and money". Osama bin-Laden comes from one of the richest families in the world and has access to millions, maybe billions of dollars. If money and power are the ultimate goal he sure chose the most difficult path.

Did he? I mean, there are so many different angles you can look at. Bin-Laden is also, possibly, the worlds biggest big time big, did I say big? Heroine dealer. It is the same dichotomy as organized crime, however, this is on a much larger scale and uses a much more ruthless recruitment tool (the facade of religion). Also, somehow the worlds most wanted man has stayed relatively hidden without even a sniff of him (as far as the general public knows). Who really knows though, he could be dead for all we know. I am sure you could name quite a few other reasons as well.

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

I'll leave it at that. It seems to me, judging from your comments, that you do not have a firm grasp on the subject matter (no offense).

Who does though? How do you even begin to try and separate all the issues here. It is impossible. However, this thread is not about the exploitation of a religion to promote terror. It is about a community center. I think we agree on most of this, my angle was when you begin putting that religious label on you are in essence inserting the idea into peoples head that "Muslim's are terrorist." It is giving people a "legitimate" reason to have an unreasonable belief about a group of people who are different then themselves.

.... and to top it off, I think all "religion" is crap!

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by dat411kid

This kind of stupidity....Affirms my belief of evil in politics...

I mean really....This idea really isn't a smart one for obvious reasons....

It boggles my mind that anyone of sound mind, could think this up to be a good idea. With good intent.

This is from an AP article yesterday. Fact Check: Islam already lives at Ground Zero

"No mosque is going up at ground zero. The center would be established at 45-51 Park Place, just over two blocks from the northern edge of the sprawling, 16-acre World Trade Center site. Its location is roughly half a dozen normal lower Manhattan blocks from the site of the North Tower, the nearer of the two destroyed in the attacks.

The center's location, in a former Burlington Coat Factory store, is already used by the cleric for worship, drawing a spillover from the imam's former main place for prayers, the al-Farah mosque. That mosque, at 245 West Broadway, is about a dozen blocks north of the World Trade Center grounds.

Another, the Manhattan Mosque, stands five blocks from the northeast corner of the World Trade Center site.

To be sure, the center's association with 9/11 is intentional and its location is no geographic coincidence. The building was damaged in the Sept. 11 attacks and the center's planners say they want the center to stand as a statement against terrorism. "

[5pecialist]

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

You're equating all Muslim with those factions seeking the demise of the United States

I'm sure there are those who do, and those who do not. I did not intend to imply a 100% corruption of Muslims, but it is noteworthy that the good ones do nothing in terms of damage control. You would think that decent Muslims everywhere would distance themselves from such people and work with the public to demystify their ways.

[theboy]

Originally Posted by 5pecialist

WERD. Someone needs to build a gay gym with glass windows that face the entrance to the mosque, so that the narrow minded have to see what they HATE so much each time they go to "pray". Next to that, a tribute to everything they hate about America: Women's rights, rock & roll, etc.

dont put stuff they hate, just stuff they cant have.

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by 5pecialist

I'm sure there are those who do, and those who do not. I did not intend to imply a 100% corruption of Muslims, but it is noteworthy that the good ones do nothing in terms of damage control. You would think that decent Muslims everywhere would distance themselves from such people and work with the public to demystify their ways.

When was the last time you took your medication?


Your facebook is pretty interesting, I am not sure if people are going to get the message though, you need more tats.

[HalveBlue]

Originally Posted by 5pecialist

I'm sure there are those who do, and those who do not. I did not intend to imply a 100% corruption of Muslims, but it is noteworthy that the good ones do nothing in terms of damage control. You would think that decent Muslims everywhere would distance themselves from such people and work with the public to demystify their ways.

The Fifth Ammendment pertains to Muslims as much as it does to citizens of other faiths.

What exactly do expect Muslims to do to "distance themselves from such people (whoever they are)?"

To be honest, it doesn't sound to me like you've ever had any sort of meaningful conversation with a Muslim.

Seriously, "demystify", WTF?

The Muslim community (all 1 billion+ of them) is diverse and broad. It's bound to contain it's fair share of assholes (like every other demographic).

Why do they get different treatment from everyone else? It's like the Red Scare all over again.

[ineedone]

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

The First Ammendment pertains to Muslims as much as it does to citizens of other faiths.

What exactly do expect Muslims to do to "distance themselves from such people (whoever they are)?"

To be honest, it doesn't sound to me like you've ever had any sort of meaningful conversation with a Muslim.

Seriously, "demystify", WTF?

The Muslim community (all 1 billion+ of them) is diverse and broad. It's bound to contain it's fair share of assholes (like every other demographic).

Why do they get different treatment from everyone else? It's like the Red Scare all over again.

5th amendment is Due Process!

[HalveBlue]

Originally Posted by ineedone

5th amendment is Due Process!

Correct.

...Innocent until proven guilty...

I was commenting on what seems to be an underlying message in a lot of posts in this thread. Namely, some people are not giving Muslims the benefit of the doubt by assuming that building a mosque near ground zero must an act of provocation or malice.

Because, come on, why else would Muslims want to build a mosque there?

[cc4usmc]

Do Islamic center developers have the funds to build? - Yahoo! News

Apparently these guys don't even have money to build the mosque/community center.

[singlecamslam]

Obama is muslim therefore he is a terrorist. He's just pretending to be a president. Cant you tell?

[5pecialist]

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

The Fifth Ammendment pertains to Muslims as much as it does to citizens of other faiths.

What exactly do expect Muslims to do to "distance themselves from such people (whoever they are)?"

To be honest, it doesn't sound to me like you've ever had any sort of meaningful conversation with a Muslim.

Seriously, "demystify", WTF?

The Muslim community (all 1 billion+ of them) is diverse and broad. It's bound to contain it's fair share of assholes (like every other demographic).

Why do they get different treatment from everyone else? It's like the Red Scare all over again.

Perhaps I am not making myself clear. I'm talking more about a P.R. move, nothing more. If your organization was being misunderstood on a grand scale, would you not take the opportunity to educate people about it? Maybe it's just me, but I see this as a great opportunity.

[HalveBlue]

Originally Posted by 5pecialist

Perhaps I am not making myself clear. I'm talking more about a P.R. move, nothing more. If your organization was being misunderstood on a grand scale, would you not take the opportunity to educate people about it? Maybe it's just me, but I see this as a great opportunity.

I haven't met a Muslim yet who has refused to answer questions I have about their religion.

Quite the contrary, actually.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Originally Posted by cc4usmc

I think you're afraid to put a religious label on a terrorist because you want to be politically correct. You can say that religion plays a part, but that's as far as you'll go. The fact of the matter is, these certain terrorists use the Muslim religion as the back bone of their cause, no matter how twisted the words are.

You can't look at two Muslim individuals and tell which one is a radical. They look the same, talk the same, smell the same. Just look at all the people that have popped up since 9/11 in support of them. You've got regular ass looking people trying to blow up Time Square.

I think the people in NY are just afraid that if this mosque goes through, it's just going to way for the wrong people to get in. Does that make any sense?

So with the same mentality...I cant tell which priest is a child molester, they look the same, talk the same, smell the same...lets all put them in prison for molestation.

You cant blame religion for breeding idiots who think what they're doing is right. No matter what, these fucks are still just the 1% of Muslims are composed of.

I've lived in the Middle East, I've had friends who are Pakistani, Indians, Iranian, Kuwaiti, Palestinian, Egyptian, etc etc etc, they are all just like regular folks.

[5pecialist]

Originally Posted by fliprayzin240sx

they are all just like regular folks.

Define "regular".

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by 5pecialist

Define "regular".

I see what you did there...

Most Muslims are not Islamist. Just like most Christians, Jews and Sikh are not Extremists.

[Brian]

The whole thing is simply in bad taste. Sure, they have every right to build it, but.... it just aint right and I think most people will understand that. Sadly, those that support the terrorists are probably on Cloud 9 with this whole ordeal.

[ayuaddict]

Just build a brosque

[J3123MY]

I look down and despise religion.... But America is about freedom.

[chitownguy]

Originally Posted by Brian

The whole thing is simply in bad taste. Sure, they have every right to build it, but.... it just aint right and I think most people will understand that. Sadly, those that support the terrorists are probably on Cloud 9 with this whole ordeal.

Why is it in bad taste? It's just going to be a place where people of Muslim faith can go to worship. I'm sure that everybody that would go there have no affiliation with any terrorists group. If anything, you would be more likely to find someone who lost family/friends in the 9/11 attacks.

Now if they wanted to build a terrorist training facility on that location then I would completely agree with you. But I believe that if they have the money to build then they have every right to build a section of that community center into a mosque.

[Brian]

I simply feel that there are some things in life that people know should not be done, even though there might be nothing illegal about it. I believe this is one of those things. That's all I have to say about it.

[Matej]

Even though it may seem that we have come a long way in the past few thousand years, my belief is that human society is still in its primitive stages.

Just when it seemed that Christians are becoming more and more open-minded, and are even learning to take a joke at their expense; which is great progress; Muslims started spreading all over the world en masse, making religion a serious and dangerous issue everywhere yet again. When will this end already?
...Not in my lifetime.

[WheelWhore]

im with brian.

[ayuaddict]

Brosque!!!

[5pecialist]

Brothel