Gay rights

[fckillerbee]

Originally Posted by TommyBoy89

Well I have a small input and didn't read most of this thread so apologies if it has been discussed or I am repeating items. But it is however what I think so...

I have zero problem with gays. I know some gay people and they are usually more energetic and usually have a strong sense of humor. The problem I saw some people here shared and others I know is the public expressions. We don't need to see it constantly, some do this and some don't. This is the same as when your in public you don't want to see a guy and girl making out hardcore. Like someone said before it seems as if the homosexuals are using the sexual preference for attention at times.

The gay pride parade in Toronto usually goes overboard with obscene displays and what not. Random question though if being gay is considered normal in culture why is there no straight pride parade to go with the gay pride parade? Serious question and would like some serious/educated responses.

because things aren't equal. I'm a proud german/american...and even I know we can't have a white history month without a huge problem. So african americans have their month, hispanics have their day, and I'm more likely going to get out of a exhaust ticket.

You see a gay parade...and you don't see gay people killing straight people...yet if we had a "straight parade" i'm sure there would be gay bashing. The problem is control. It takes one asshole to mess everything up....I believe gay parades are made to have someone who isn't proud to be gay...to realize how he/she isn't alone. obviously there is that asshole making obscene gestures...there's one in every society.

please...if you read the bible...take it as it is....think about it to yourself.

[ronmcdon]

Idk about that.
you're still entitled to celebrate 'oktober-fest' for a whole month.
I know I celebrate (or use it as an excuse to drink to) my german heritage that way.

don't see remotely how celebrating one's heritage can be considered offensive,
and even if it is, that's their deal.

[!Zar!]

fckillerbee understands how it is.

[StaticX27]

The biggest question I have is why are people bringing religion into this whole thing? Religion doesn't decide right from wrong. Religion doesn't write our legislation. Religious organizations aren't the only ones who can conduct a marriage.

Everyone goes on and on about how immoral, wrong and sinful a gay relationship is, but seriously, who decides that? Isn't this the same type of hate that was going on against every other minority that the majority has hated on since the beginning of time? As far as the state and country is concerned, the gay community (male and female) are just another social group lobbying for rights. You could make them as choice oriented as Environmentalists, or you could compared them to racial equality groups, but the fact is, they are another social group that exists within the country.

As far as the state is concerned, being gay is no different than someone being black, in terms of legislation (not in terms of actuality, obviously). By making it so one social group does not have the same right as another (marriage, in this situation), its textbook inequality. Whether being homosexual is a sin or not is 100% irrelevant as far as law should be concerned (thus the whole idea of separation of church and state). Unfortunately, too many people take the bible as a guideline for being a "good" person. I don't believe in churches, the bible or what some guy in a funny dress preaches about on my day off. Does that mean I can't be a good person because I don't follow a book? I think not. I think the things that make me a good person are determined by the basics of humanity. The basic rule even the constitution of this country was founded upon: Don't do things that would infringe on the happiness of others.

No matter how much money the churches endorse into fighting against gay rights, this whole matter has nothing to do with religion, it's about rights of a social group; nothing more and nothing less. People think that giving gay's the right to marry, but calling it something else is fair. However, that's still acknowledging there's a difference between straight marriage and gay marriage, which comes back to the whole "Separate but equal" clause that existed in anti-african-american legislation. Even then, the supreme court ruled that Separate is not equal, yet we're saying it's okay now? Hypocritical.

Now, that doesn't mean there isn't a reason to oppose same sex marriage. I believe the movie that showed this was "I Now Pronounce You Chuck & Larry," where one guy was attempting to get benefits through gay marriage. These are the types of real issues that would come from allowing same sex marriage, and those are valid points in terms why same sex marriage shouldn't be allowed. But to sit there and say it shouldn't be allowed because you don't agree (which is basically the church's stance) with it is the same hypocritical, close-minded stance that was popular at every single act of segregation we've read about in history books.

People sit there and complain about gay orgies in public, yet no one remembers things like Mardi Gras that happens every year? They complain about Gay parents raising adopted children to be gay, I say that being raised by gay parents would be promoting open-mindedness to that child and teach that child a little thing many people lack; tolerance and acceptance. For a religious organization that preaches about tolerance and understanding of others, those same organizations are so quick to be intolerant of others and enforce their political persuasion. I wonder who's the evil in this situation? Who's oppressing the weak now?

You can put your positive and negative slant on the outcomes however you want to make yourself look better or the other guy worse. In the end, people are people. Straight parents have just a likely to screw up raising a kid as a pair of gay parents. Everyone hates those "flamboyant" gay men going around, like bruce the hair stylist, but think about how many of those guys we know, then compare it to those hyped up alpha-male marines and think about their attitude and how much it can piss you off too. People are people, and the quicker we can learn that and accept it, the faster we'll be able to move on to other things like getting our country out of debt.

[fckillerbee]

Originally Posted by StaticX27

The biggest question I have is why are people bringing religion into this whole thing? Religion doesn't decide right from wrong. Religion doesn't write our legislation. Religious organizations aren't the only ones who can conduct a marriage.

Everyone goes on and on about how immoral, wrong and sinful a gay relationship is, but seriously, who decides that? Isn't this the same type of hate that was going on against every other minority that the majority has hated on since the beginning of time? As far as the state and country is concerned, the gay community (male and female) are just another social group lobbying for rights. You could make them as choice oriented as Environmentalists, or you could compared them to racial equality groups, but the fact is, they are another social group that exists within the country.

As far as the state is concerned, being gay is no different than someone being black, in terms of legislation (not in terms of actuality, obviously). By making it so one social group does not have the same right as another (marriage, in this situation), its textbook inequality. Whether being homosexual is a sin or not is 100% irrelevant as far as law should be concerned (thus the whole idea of separation of church and state). Unfortunately, too many people take the bible as a guideline for being a "good" person. I don't believe in churches, the bible or what some guy in a funny dress preaches about on my day off. Does that mean I can't be a good person because I don't follow a book? I think not. I think the things that make me a good person are determined by the basics of humanity. The basic rule even the constitution of this country was founded upon: Don't do things that would infringe on the happiness of others.

No matter how much money the churches endorse into fighting against gay rights, this whole matter has nothing to do with religion, it's about rights of a social group; nothing more and nothing less. People think that giving gay's the right to marry, but calling it something else is fair. However, that's still acknowledging there's a difference between straight marriage and gay marriage, which comes back to the whole "Separate but equal" clause that existed in anti-african-american legislation. Even then, the supreme court ruled that Separate is not equal, yet we're saying it's okay now? Hypocritical.

Now, that doesn't mean there isn't a reason to oppose same sex marriage. I believe the movie that showed this was "I Now Pronounce You Chuck & Larry," where one guy was attempting to get benefits through gay marriage. These are the types of real issues that would come from allowing same sex marriage, and those are valid points in terms why same sex marriage shouldn't be allowed. But to sit there and say it shouldn't be allowed because you don't agree (which is basically the church's stance) with it is the same hypocritical, close-minded stance that was popular at every single act of segregation we've read about in history books.

People sit there and complain about gay orgies in public, yet no one remembers things like Mardi Gras that happens every year? They complain about Gay parents raising adopted children to be gay, I say that being raised by gay parents would be promoting open-mindedness to that child and teach that child a little thing many people lack; tolerance and acceptance. For a religious organization that preaches about tolerance and understanding of others, those same organizations are so quick to be intolerant of others and enforce their political persuasion. I wonder who's the evil in this situation? Who's oppressing the weak now?

You can put your positive and negative slant on the outcomes however you want to make yourself look better or the other guy worse. In the end, people are people. Straight parents have just a likely to screw up raising a kid as a pair of gay parents. Everyone hates those "flamboyant" gay men going around, like bruce the hair stylist, but think about how many of those guys we know, then compare it to those hyped up alpha-male marines and think about their attitude and how much it can piss you off too. People are people, and the quicker we can learn that and accept it, the faster we'll be able to move on to other things like getting our country out of debt.

because...that is the only objective to why gay's can't marry. If you can name a reason other than religion... go for it....to make it easy...we should just eliminate marriage. Then what would happen? lol I mean...what do you "need" marriage for. As if two people can't have a binding agreement among themself?

[ronmcdon]

Well there 'ought' to be a separation in church & state.
In reality, I get the impression this is a feverently religious state.
At the very least, there are a good deal whom are voters.

The whole gay marriage thing is generally more accepted in Europe.
imo, they are 'generally' more secular and don't tend use religion as means to dictate policy.

[Enna]

American's are prudes.

[StaticX27]

Originally Posted by fckillerbee

because...that is the only objective to why gay's can't marry. If you can name a reason other than religion... go for it....to make it easy...we should just eliminate marriage. Then what would happen? lol I mean...what do you "need" marriage for. As if two people can't have a binding agreement among themself?

I supposed you didn't read the whole thing, because I answered that question. To answer your laziness, marriage provides a number of other benefits such as joint accounts, shared insurance policies (hey look, you can qualify for insurance through your work place by being married or being a child of the primary beneficiary), hospital visitation rights (family only?), immigration privledges (countries that don't have as detailed records about a family's geneology, cousins could marry each other for the purpose of getting a green card) and a multitude of other benefits extended to tax breaks all the way to getting free tickets to shows in Vegas (went with my girlfriend, and we couldn't qualify because we didn't live at the same address *tear*). Those are various things you can't qualify for with these "binding agreements among themselves."

As I mentioned, the movie "I now pronounce you Chuck and Larry" was a prime argument against same sex marriage that had absolutely no roots in religion. It provides loopholes to qualifying for various things in our society that are marriage concentric, which is a strong reason to oppose same sex marriage. However, if religion is your only reason for opposing it, as I stated, you're just enforcing your beliefs on other people and infringing on their happiness. In other words, if religion is your only reason for opposing gay marriage, then you're no different than the bigots who opposed African American rights, or Women's rights. No where does it indicate that law should follow religion, and no where is it defined that religion determines "right" and "wrong," so why is it religion is determining right and wrong in this situation? Fear and Closed-mindedness is the answer to that question.

[!Zar!]

Gay marriage is no more of a sin than masturbation. Both take place in privacy and does not involve anyone else other than the individual/s participating in the act.

Iirc the bible has things that hint towards not masturbating and how it is a sin. So does that mean that people who masturbate shouldn't be allowed to marry?

Same shit right?

[fckillerbee]

Originally Posted by StaticX27

I supposed you didn't read the whole thing, because I answered that question. To answer your laziness, marriage provides a number of other benefits such as joint accounts, shared insurance policies (hey look, you can qualify for insurance through your work place by being married or being a child of the primary beneficiary), hospital visitation rights (family only?), immigration privledges (countries that don't have as detailed records about a family's geneology, cousins could marry each other for the purpose of getting a green card) and a multitude of other benefits extended to tax breaks all the way to getting free tickets to shows in Vegas (went with my girlfriend, and we couldn't qualify because we didn't live at the same address *tear*). Those are various things you can't qualify for with these "binding agreements among themselves."

As I mentioned, the movie "I now pronounce you Chuck and Larry" was a prime argument against same sex marriage that had absolutely no roots in religion. It provides loopholes to qualifying for various things in our society that are marriage concentric, which is a strong reason to oppose same sex marriage. However, if religion is your only reason for opposing it, as I stated, you're just enforcing your beliefs on other people and infringing on their happiness. In other words, if religion is your only reason for opposing gay marriage, then you're no different than the bigots who opposed African American rights, or Women's rights. No where does it indicate that law should follow religion, and no where is it defined that religion determines "right" and "wrong," so why is it religion is determining right and wrong in this situation? Fear and Closed-mindedness is the answer to that question.

I did read the whole thing jackass. obviously you answered the same way I did. You also asked a question. I said eliminate marriage...because of religion. Then people would just have to get into "legal" agreements. For health care....movie tickets...yada yada.

What stops someone from getting a legal marriage certificate if say...they change their name, dress up like a girl, and get married. Does someone actually look up their social...find their name change..and see who they were before and deny their marriage certificate?

I understand there are benefits to being married.... what I'm saying is....why does it have to be marriage that is a binding contract to those benefits? Because everyone will take advantage of it? As if they wouldn't when it becomes legal for gays to marry? As if straight people don't take advantage of "getting married" for reasons not related to love.

This eliminating marriage question...was for the one that is religious. for the one that is saying its a sin to live together if your not married....blah blah blah... What if we eliminated marriage. Then what would "his" argument be if he also couldn't get "married".

[!Zar!]

So far that is the most 'real' debate comment in this thread in a while.

[StaticX27]

Originally Posted by fckillerbee

I did read the whole thing jackass. obviously you answered the same way I did. You also asked a question. I said eliminate marriage...because of religion. Then people would just have to get into "legal" agreements. For health care....movie tickets...yada yada.

What stops someone from getting a legal marriage certificate if say...they change their name, dress up like a girl, and get married. Does someone actually look up their social...find their name change..and see who they were before and deny their marriage certificate?

I understand there are benefits to being married.... what I'm saying is....why does it have to be marriage that is a binding contract to those benefits? Because everyone will take advantage of it? As if they wouldn't when it becomes legal for gays to marry? As if straight people don't take advantage of "getting married" for reasons not related to love.

This eliminating marriage question...was for the one that is religious. for the one that is saying its a sin to live together if your not married....blah blah blah... What if we eliminated marriage. Then what would "his" argument be if he also couldn't get "married".

For purposes of this argument, I consider marriage to be the name in which this binding contract exists, not as a religious ceremony symbolizing the unit of two people, which is the way it's viewed now.

Now, if you're suggesting getting rid of the term marriage in reference to the religious meaning, then sure, go for it, it would have no effect on the contractual binding that is marriage now.

Just FYI, yes, when you file your marriage certificate, it is tied to your social security number, which would effectively null your marriage to whomever it is you're marrying in the eyes of the government. Can you imagine the look of surprise on a guy's face when he gets a letter in the male saying his marriage certificate has been declined because his spouse was a transsexual? I would probably hang myself....

In essence, I do agree with you in many aspects, marriage as a whole has been too closely identified to be synonymous with religion in general that the Religious Reich feels it belongs to them and their laws should dictate what's acceptable. Having been to 3 weddings in this past year alone that were not held at a church, I consider it complete and utter zombie-bullshit that the churches are all up in arms over same sex marriage, moreover, that their opinions are affecting policy because of their own opinions on how people should live. You don't see me trying to pass laws that put the bible in the fiction section of a book store, why should they get to affect policy that has absolutely no affect on themselves?

[fckillerbee]

Originally Posted by StaticX27

For purposes of this argument, I consider marriage to be the name in which this binding contract exists, not as a religious ceremony symbolizing the unit of two people, which is the way it's viewed now.

Now, if you're suggesting getting rid of the term marriage in reference to the religious meaning, then sure, go for it, it would have no effect on the contractual binding that is marriage now.

Just FYI, yes, when you file your marriage certificate, it is tied to your social security number, which would effectively null your marriage to whomever it is you're marrying in the eyes of the government. Can you imagine the look of surprise on a guy's face when he gets a letter in the male saying his marriage certificate has been declined because his spouse was a transsexual? I would probably hang myself....

In essence, I do agree with you in many aspects, marriage as a whole has been too closely identified to be synonymous with religion in general that the Religious Reich feels it belongs to them and their laws should dictate what's acceptable. Having been to 3 weddings in this past year alone that were not held at a church, I consider it complete and utter zombie-bullshit that the churches are all up in arms over same sex marriage, moreover, that their opinions are affecting policy because of their own opinions on how people should live. You don't see me trying to pass laws that put the bible in the fiction section of a book store, why should they get to affect policy that has absolutely no affect on themselves?

i have always looked at marriage as a ceremony between two people. But then again...i was raised christian...and my father is a firm believer of marriage. He actually gave me tons of shit when he found out I was living with my gf (now my wife) at the time.

more so getting rid of marriage as a legal aspect. Meaning...no marriage certificate. nothing stating two people are "jointed in marriage". So if one person wanted to get insurance under their spouse...documents should be given....or verified. Not a marriage cert.

kinda like the amount of shit given to people who try and marry a philipino woman...that doesn't speak english...so the court systems have to prove "love" or something along those lines. I just want to see equality. That is what this is about....right. Cause "god" made everyone equally. So we should have equal rights. Regardless of what a book may say.

Now I don't believe people should marry animals. Regardless of how much love one may have for their animal. lol

haha...on a side note...there was a movie kinda like this. but didn't go in detail about the messed up transexual marriage. The movie was more about a woman trying to kill her husband for insurance money. But the guy helping her...got married...went to have a honey moon...and BLAMO! penises on both sides! lol

haha<---right brain thinking color coordinated lol

I would like to see someone challenge the bible as fiction or non fiction....just to see the controversy. lol

[StaticX27]

Originally Posted by fckillerbee

I would like to see someone challenge the bible as fiction or non fiction....just to see the controversy. lol

I think that's why it's in the "Spiritual" section of the book store to avoid the whole controversy all together. I've been to bible study groups and such and honestly, some people are closed-minded to an extreme. My theory, if you can sit through Dogma without getting offended, you're cool in my book. They made a lot of really good points through the whole movie that poked fun at religion, but still would make an open minded person go "Hmmmmm."

So you're saying get rid of the marriage contract entirely, and go with separate forms, say filing insurance jointly, almost like a cosigner on a credit card? Interesting concept, it would require a complete revamp of everything that we do now. Although I think it would be bad ass to see a complete disbanding of green card marriages. Love your wife? Help her meet the immigration requirements necessary to come here then! Don't bust out the hax and marry her :P

[fckillerbee]

Originally Posted by StaticX27

I think that's why it's in the "Spiritual" section of the book store to avoid the whole controversy all together. I've been to bible study groups and such and honestly, some people are closed-minded to an extreme. My theory, if you can sit through Dogma without getting offended, you're cool in my book. They made a lot of really good points through the whole movie that poked fun at religion, but still would make an open minded person go "Hmmmmm."

So you're saying get rid of the marriage contract entirely, and go with separate forms, say filing insurance jointly, almost like a cosigner on a credit card? Interesting concept, it would require a complete revamp of everything that we do now. Although I think it would be bad ass to see a complete disbanding of green card marriages. Love your wife? Help her meet the immigration requirements necessary to come here then! Don't bust out the hax and marry her :P

haha exactly....people are soooo closed minded...I dated a girl for 4 years where her dad was on the board for calvary chapel in coasta mesa....some of those people are just surprising...and yes...I was there every sunday...and monday services. My dad is one of them....so for the people that didn't understand my posts about making my dad quit smoking....I told him this.

ME: So....dad...is committing suicide a sin? (i obviously know the answer)
DAD: yes....
ME: Did you know that smoking is the 4th leading cause of death in the US.
DAD: Looking confused right now...
ME: ....so....your going to hell!
DAD: No, I'm not going to hell.
ME:really? cause you knowingly put the cigarette up to your mouth...which could lead to death...that's suicide!
DAD: puts the cigarette out...hasn't smoked one since.
and I laugh my ass off everytime I tell that story!

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by !Zar!

Iirc the bible has things that hint towards not masturbating and how it is a sin.

The sins I would publicly commit if I didn't knock one out every now and again.


It'd be bad.

[slowpo]

Originally Posted by slothonaleash

For me, I feel as if I was mainly born the way I am. I was always more interested in boys--even at a young age. I fell in love with my best friend throughout middle school (a guy), and so I came to terms with my sexuality around ninth grade. I have had passionate feelings for a female; they were just not even close to as strong as they are for the males I have been passionate for.

Nurture has little to nothing to do with me being a homosexual. I grew up in a gay-bashing family, I grew up with gay-bashing friends, and so I was very confused as to what to do. I have 'tried to be straight,' but when it comes down to it, it's just not worth forcing yourself to do things you don't feel right about.

listen young man your just confused. Um, well you see son. Being a Christian and all I really don't have time to listen to your whining and complaining. At the end of the day I get to watch you roast in the lake of fire for eternity while sipping on a nice cold beer with Baby Jesus. So is your call son if I was you I repent now. Godbless you.

[Enna]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

The sins I would publicly commit if I didn't knock one out every now and again.


It'd be bad.

The truth.

[ESmorz]

The fact that this thread exists and that this is a legitimate talking and debate point for a lot people is exactly what's wrong with our states, this country, and every other country like us or worst than us. (Mind you I am aware and thankful that we have the freedom to do so)

But seriously;

They are just like us, except they like the same sex... "oh no the sky is falling because some dudes making out with another dude, and this book (written thousands of years ago in a section filled with tons of shit that is no longer relevant) tells me that's bad and that we should condemn them not only in our churches but in their everyday public life, and prohibit them from doing everything we can do". Yes, I also realize the ensuing shit storm that the churches shouldn't be forced into allowing it be a marriage and the sanctity of their word. It's just that though, a word. I think and would hope your God would like you to put aside the meaning of a word that is harmful to no one in the pursuit of a groups happiness and inclusion into society.

If not... Get the fuck over yourselves.

[BustedS13]

Originally Posted by slowpo

listen young man your just confused. Um, well you see son. Being a Christian and all I really don't have time to listen to your whining and complaining. At the end of the day I get to watch you roast in the lake of fire for eternity while sipping on a nice cold beer with Baby Jesus. So is your call son if I was you I repent now. Godbless you.

Matthew 7.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mk. 4.24
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

now, i think the bible is a box of horseshit. but that's just me.
but you'd think that you would know the rules, being a devout Christian and all.



....wait, were you just being ironic? my bad.