Opinions on Restomods

[KA24DESOneThree]

Making this thread to bump a dead subforum and also to gather a little bit of intel on how Zilvians respond to certain ideas. I come across as stuffy and up-my-own-ass sometimes; my apologies. This isn't market research, this is me wanting to talk with people who I have e-known for decades.

I am involved in building restomods now and am thinking of pivoting into my own business building restomods that don't currently exist.

Most Singer builds are over a million dollars now (I don't know anyone with one of the new Turbo builds but several clients have Classic builds). The DLS are $2m+. Guntherwerks are above a million. Alfaholics GTA-R builds are deep into six figures with a 7-year waitlist. There's the Kimera Evo37, the Redux Leichtbau M3, the various ICONs, Lightspeed 911s, Paul Stephens 911s, Ringbrothers, Automobili Amos, Forge Design, Theon, Kamm, MST; the list of restomod specialists stretches into the dozens. I mentioned shops that restomod Porsche 911s, Ford Broncos, Toyota FJ40s, Ford Escorts, Alfa Romeo sports coupes and sedans, build Group B-style sporting cars, and muscle cars. All cars with ties to motorsport, pop culture, or both. Also cars that have many decades of history- the 911 is still partially recognizable and has won its class in everything from SCCA amateur racing to Le Mans, the Bronco was rebooted recently, the FJ40 came back as the FJ Cruiser, the Giulia moniker came back in the saloon world, Group B has never lost its mythos of manufacturers skirting and crossing the fine line of danger.

The restomods I'm working on would be in the $350k-450k range.

They'd be street-focused versions of '90s race cars, with larger displacement engines to meet modern emissions requirements- and customer power/tractability expectations. Very few off-the-shelf parts, custom billet uprights, raised subframe mounting points to allow good ride/handling compromise despite low ride height, chassis-in-white built on a jig table, bespoke wheels, etc. You know, easy shit.

It is impossible to make these cars at a lower price point, IMO. There's an expectation of all aspects of quality in a restomod that makes the high price necessary, plus I'm just not willing to settle for something I don't want to drive- even if I can't afford my own product.

What does the Zilvia peanut gallery think of incredibly expensive versions of relatively plebian cars?

What car is on your personal "let's make a restomod!" list?

What value do you place on quality of production?

What value do you place on ability to customize a build to your exact liking?

Is the value of a restomod primarily dependent on cultural value and/or continuation of a well-known vehicle's history?

What do you think about restomods and performance increases?

Do you believe the power has to be silly to be worthwhile?

Interested to hear what Zilvia has to say; a lot of you are either in the automotive industry or have been working with cars for decades, so there are bound to be jaded answers and criticism, both of which I'm looking forward to.

[wezurii]

What does the Zilvia peanut gallery think of incredibly expensive versions of relatively plebian cars?
I think this comes down to personal attachment of the car itself, likewise with the 240 some are build to very high standard and some not so much

What value do you place on quality of production?
In my opinion quality is key, but there is a turning point of when it is worth the extra money over lets say a slightly less wear and tear item

What value do you place on ability to customize a build to your exact liking?
This also comes down to what is the goal of the car for it being used and how does it improve for that part.

Is the value of a restomod primarily dependent on cultural value and/or continuation of a well-known vehicle's history?
100%, for example evo's are still going for sub 30k where I live, while in the meantime I do not understand that value besides it has roots in rally

What do you think about restomods and performance increases?
Has it's time and place but goes together with the customization option in my opinion

Do you believe the power has to be silly to be worthwhile?
Definitely not, to me power has to be useable, reliable and balanced out.
For example, yes a 600whp sr20 sounds fun, but power band probably sucks on the street unless you are running some crazy BW that hits boost real soon, otherwise you need to drive all out on the street for it being remotely fun

[deolio]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

What does the Zilvia peanut gallery think of incredibly expensive versions of relatively plebian cars?

Mostly pretty "meh," just because they aren't any of the ones listed below haha

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

What car is on your personal "let's make a restomod!" list?

Pretty short list:
510
AE86
190e Evo 2

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

What value do you place on quality of production?

"Street-focused" in my head falls between track and show, so I'd say as long as there are no booger welds or tesla-spec panel fitment and there are some exotic materials sprinkled about it'd be just fine.

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

What value do you place on ability to customize a build to your exact liking?

Not super high, assuming any typical quirks have been remedied and there is a decent amount of adjustability our of the box.

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

Is the value of a restomod primarily dependent on cultural value and/or continuation of a well-known vehicle's history?

Vehicles that have had a notable impact on motorsports have more value to me (510 - SCCA king, AE86 - touge legend, 190e - touring car icon), but I could see cultural icons like a DB5, Delorean, GT500, Mini Cooper, and Beetle being equally worthy of a restomod in the eyes of less motorsport-focused individuals.

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

What do you think about restomods and performance increases?

Everything in balance.

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

Do you believe the power has to be silly to be worthwhile?

Same as above, but also it's gotta suit the car. In a restomod Charger, 900hp makes sense, but not so much in a restomod AE86. I imagine a built L28, 7ag, or m102, maybe with an option for a smidge of forced induction (like 10lbs max), would be plenty.

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

Interested to hear what Zilvia has to say; a lot of you are either in the automotive industry or have been working with cars for decades, so there are bound to be jaded answers and criticism, both of which I'm looking forward to.

With more and more bland, soulless, auto-pilot, people-haulers becoming the norm I can definitely see the market for restomods growing.

My main concern would part availability and serviceability down the road. Will the company still be around and able to make replacement parts in 20 years? Or are there enough similarities between it and the production model that high-wear items can be replaced with oe or aftermarket?

[KA24DESOneThree]

Great points, especially the part availability/serviceability down the road.

I'm trying to take a lot of that into consideration with longer warranties and more bespoke parts stock than one might expect for a small manufacturer, and it's a large reason why the builds have to be as expensive as they are. One of the other reasons is that you have to build the mule, develop it, and beat on it. That means short production runs and the costs that go with them. You can do without building a mule and developing it if the restomods are relatively limited in scope and focus more on build quality than overall experience- but that's not the case with my current project.

My goal for any project is for the majority of the cars to be used as intended. Collision repair parts have to be available.

Restomodded vintage Japanese cars scare the hell out of me, as does my current idea. We're talking about cars that have already bottomed their depreciation curve but my ask would be 10-15x the price of a car that needs nothing.

I'd love to do TE27 Corollas, Datsun 1200s, and 510s but I don't know their owners and I don't know if there'd be a market at $200k for a build. I would need to go to more shows, get a better understanding of who likes the cars, and most importantly, drive them so I can develop a baseline of what they need. Yeah, yeah, you can take any of those and lower them over aggressive Watanabes or Minilites or SSRs and have them look good, but the purpose of a restomod is to make every single aspect look great and to take the driving experience to a higher level. I'd have to get period books and see if anyone has period pictures to create a knowledge base from which to iterate.

Hachirokus have their own issues. Emissions compliance being one, but also just trying to convince people that a six-figure Corolla GT-S build isn't insane. Also, procuring 25 straight, no-bullshit cars might actually prove problematic. Then what do you do about the engine? I don't do turbo builds, so it'd have to be an NA 4AG or 7AG as you said.

My lack of expertise getting modified engines to pass California emissions testing is something that will need to change. I know my clients will likely register the cars to their Montana LLCs, but those that don't want to do things that way will require emissions legality.

The 190E is of the same era as the race cars I'm thinking about, and some of the same issues with street usage. In order to be as low as the DTM cars, there's going to need to be some relocation of mounting points. I'd have to set something else as a dynamics and feel benchmark and get there from stock. Cosworth would have to be involved with regards to the engine IMO, and we're talking an easy six figures in development to reach adequate power goals- which makes it a more worrisome proposition.

[wezurii]

Also a thing to take in account, don't know how much it apply to the cars you have in mind.
But alot of products are going or are out of production, that is offcourse not a problem if there are other options, but when there isn't you either need to make it your self etc

I am in the process of restoring/modifying my 90 coup to OEM+, but small parts like the rubber on a door hinge isn't available anymore and bugs the shit out of me that the door clicks when opening all the way

[Kitanrip]

How do you assess the concern raised about part availability and serviceability for restomods in the long term, and what strategies or considerations would you employ to address this potential issue?

[Corbic]

Meh.

"Built By Legends" is already do that using pedigreed industry experts and brand names.

For $350k I'd expect a SS Garage Active GTR build or a 912 build by Kanmanufaktur.

https://www.instagram.com/kammanufak...Y0M2ZqZXdqcA==

https://www.instagram.com/active4488...52a3FzdGMxOGpu

SS Garage basically strips a GTR to shell and reskins it in a super wide OEM appearing carbon body, roof and all. Power train is a RB28, single turbo, holinger 6spd, air suspension and 20" 3pc wheels. It's a GTR on steroids and the body work is stunning. The body kit is $30k, completed cars are $300-$350k.

You should know about Kanmanufaktur by now. Building long nose 912's into fantastic enjoyable cars. All modern electronics and suspension, custom designed carbon fiber tub and body, built Type-4 engine to 200hp, built 5spd. Absolutely stunning and an actual "drivers car" unlike a $1.5M Singer. Started at $270k, now up to $350k due to demand and the ever increasingly retardation of the Air-cooled market.


Personally I wish someone would build new Porsche bodies for $25-30k so enthusiast could get back to building and driving them. Just rock hot Type-1s or EJ20X/EZ36 engines and 6-rib transmissions

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by Kitanrip

How do you assess the concern raised about part availability and serviceability for restomods in the long term, and what strategies or considerations would you employ to address this potential issue?

That's half the point of a restomod.

Why try to maintain the OEM brake system, calibers, rotors, rubber lines, booster, etc when you can yank it out and use a universal Wildwood system or something off current production cars?

Why try and find a numbers matching 426 when you can just grab a $15k Hellcat motor? An original '70 Hemi Short block (no heads or intake) sold for $37k on eBay in 2019. I'm sure it's worth 2x now.

[OvidKat]

How do you view the raised concerns about the availability of parts and long-term serviceability for restomods, and what strategies or considerations would you suggest to tackle this potential issue?

[KA24DESOneThree]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Meh.

"Built By Legends" is already do that using pedigreed industry experts and brand names.

For $350k I'd expect a SS Garage Active GTR build or a 912 build by Kanmanufaktur.

https://www.instagram.com/kammanufak...Y0M2ZqZXdqcA==

https://www.instagram.com/active4488...52a3FzdGMxOGpu

SS Garage basically strips a GTR to shell and reskins it in a super wide OEM appearing carbon body, roof and all. Power train is a RB28, single turbo, holinger 6spd, air suspension and 20" 3pc wheels. It's a GTR on steroids and the body work is stunning. The body kit is $30k, completed cars are $300-$350k.

You should know about Kanmanufaktur by now. Building long nose 912's into fantastic enjoyable cars. All modern electronics and suspension, custom designed carbon fiber tub and body, built Type-4 engine to 200hp, built 5spd. Absolutely stunning and an actual "drivers car" unlike a $1.5M Singer. Started at $270k, now up to $350k due to demand and the ever increasingly retardation of the Air-cooled market.


Personally I wish someone would build new Porsche bodies for $25-30k so enthusiast could get back to building and driving them. Just rock hot Type-1s or EJ20X/EZ36 engines and 6-rib transmissions

With due respect, Kamm cars are not well-regarded by the potential buyers I've talked to. Their first (and possibly continuing) customer cars were too stiff for good, non-Continental roads and I've driven cars with hot Type 4s... they're not nearly as engaging as a six-cylinder. They're well-built but not in the same league as any modern Singer.

The Type 4 doesn't make the same noise, it doesn't have the same character. Both it and any Subaru engine aren't going to deliver the quality of overall experience. I have zero interest in any 912 with either, and at that price level, I'm not interested in anything non-Mezger.

I've never heard of a 6-rib swap into a 911 or 912 before, probably because it's not a subjectively good transaxle. Why ruin these cars with an economy van transaxle?

Trust me, I get being priced out of the market for the cars you love, but cheapening the experience makes it worse.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

With due respect, Kamm cars are not well-regarded by the potential buyers I've talked to. Their first (and possibly continuing) customer cars were too stiff for good, non-Continental roads

Good to know. I only know what .he hype-blogs have posted.

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

and I've driven cars with hot Type 4s... they're not nearly as engaging as a six-cylinder. They're well-built but not in the same league as any modern Singer.

Kind of a duh statement. A Singer is 7-figured and the 6's are amazing. The VW engines are charming in their own way.

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

The Type 4 doesn't make the same noise, it doesn't have the same character. Both it and any Subaru engine aren't going to deliver the quality of overall experience. I have zero interest in any 912 with either, and at that price level, I'm not interested in anything non-Mezger.

Fair enough, especially considering there are tons of cars in the $150k range.

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

I've never heard of a 6-rib swap into a 911 or 912 before, probably because it's not a subjectively good transaxle. Why ruin these cars with an economy van transaxle?

Trust me, I get being priced out of the market for the cars you love, but cheapening the experience makes it worse.

"Priced out" isn't exactly what happened to the Vintage Porsche market. They went from affordable enthusiast cars to priceless art pieces.

The days of a guy grabbing a 993 roller for $6k and doing a VR6T swap or building a Hot-Rod track car out of a '81 for $17k are long gone.

[KA24DESOneThree]

It's frustrating, I know. I was part of a company that helped price everyone out of the market and, because I'm not a genius, also priced myself out of the market.

It's also a market correction- it used to be that used cars weren't as appealing as newer cars, but now that newer cars are significantly lacking in tactility, tactile cars have come up in value.

That's not the point of this thread, though. It will always be expensive to produce quality work, and $250/hr isn't a ton when all fixed costs have gone up significantly and the worker quality has stayed the same or gone down. It is extremely expensive to find someone fast, knowledgeable, good to work with, reliable, and who has an eye for quality.

There are ways to reduce cost, to keep price low... but there's a certain number you need to hit to avoid problem clients. Once you get above that number, the people stop being as big of an issue and you can reduce complexity by not needing a client manager.