Turbo & Manifold Hardware Discussion

[Bleakley]

Originally Posted by Def

People, this is a problem that only manifests itself on A RACE TRACK! Not you doing dyno pulls, not being an ass on the street, not drifting.

Drift events are held on race tracks too.

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by Bleakley

Drift events are held on race tracks too.

[Bleakley]

[Nickson]

I ordered a Doc Racing manifold with a Precision V-band. Makes things easier and much more secure that the conventional methods.

[KoukiMonsta]

Originally Posted by Nickson

I ordered a Doc Racing manifold with a Precision V-band. Makes things easier and much more secure that the conventional methods.

I do not give any fucks about this

Can we keep our discussion related to HARDWARE. not welding or vbands. And not studs/bolts backing out.

I'm talking about some good ole deformation.

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by Nickson

I ordered a Doc Racing manifold with a Precision V-band. Makes things easier and much more secure that the conventional methods.

hahaha

thats great, no one gives a fuck. if i wanted to spend 30,000 on a titanium top mount manifold that would melt my brake components, i would... but i dont.

because........ this isnt a ferrari, this is a piece of shit fucking NISSAN. our goal is to simply make it a little less shitty, thats all.

get with the program, people.

[Def]

Originally Posted by Bleakley

Drift events are held on race tracks too.

Yea, so are parade laps during lunch, and the stress on the turbo isn't much different.

2-3 turns of a race track does not mean it's the same stress. You accelerate hard, then feather the throttle most the run, then it's over fairly quickly compared to a 25 minute session of WOT.


I will say I'm getting a bit sick of bottom mount turbos. Whenever there's something you need to do to the turbo, it's time to pull the whole F'in manifold/turbo/outlet out.

Top mount is definitely in my future...

[bardabe]

Originally Posted by Def

Yea, so are parade laps during lunch, and the stress on the turbo isn't much different.

2-3 turns of a race track does not mean it's the same stress. You accelerate hard, then feather the throttle most the run, then it's over fairly quickly compared to a 25 minute session of WOT.


I will say I'm getting a bit sick of bottom mount turbos. Whenever there's something you need to do to the turbo, it's time to pull the whole F'in manifold/turbo/outlet out.

Top mount is definitely in my future...

I hear you on that, I'm glad my Z32 keeps it together for years at a time. that bottom mount gotta pull your engine out to change the turbo gaskets life is not exactly the business. I'm glad my super expensive OEM nissan hardware and gaskets are holding up well. hope to see you at the racetrack one day.

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by Def

I welded a T25 to a stock manifold yesterday. Way more crack prone than the no-resist GT2871r housing. Tig with 308l or 316l rod would crack immediately. Mig with er70s6 was fine, and it'd only give a slight crack on the surface on stops. I gave it a few big tacks to see if that'll hold it to experiment for you assholes.

To give an update...

I removed one of the broken heat shield studs from my S14/S15 SR20DET exhaust manifold today. I used my TIG and basically built up material on top of the sheared fastener until I had enough meat that I was able to put a pair of vice grips on the material. Prior to heating and welding, I beat it with a hammer & punch just to loosen shit. Still, it did not come out easy.

Second, I made a sample weld on the 2 exhaust manifolds + GT2560R turbine housing. Results are as follows:

1) S14/S15 SR20DET exhaust manifold appeared to accept the weld fairly well.
2) GT2560R, same, seemed to accept the weld as well
3) Miata manifold was weldable, but the material work hardens after being heated. Be warned.

[ixfxi]

Photos of M10 hardware. I simply cutoff the excess HEX portion of the Toyota stud, fit just fine.

Turbo Manifold was drilled 9.5mm for M10x1.25
Turbine Housing bolt holes were enlarged to M11.5 to slide over the studs

My drill & cross vice are NOT accurate. If you want accuracy, take the shit to a machine shop and have them do it right. I was on the jazz.

Note: I still have not decided which type of nuts I will be using.

[Bleakley]

I'm fucking sold. Looks really nice. I KNEW I should have just done this while I was there. (Fuck! Lol.)
First issue I have I know what I will be doing. Have clearance issues with the nuts on the turbo side that you had to remedy? Or no.?

[ixfxi]

Nope, fitment was fine.

[KoukiMonsta]

What will you use so seal it? I recall you said no gasket. Have you decided what will be used?

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by KoukiMonsta

What will you use so seal it? I recall you said no gasket. Have you decided what will be used?

Correct, no gasket since both surfaces are flat and expand at the same rate. I simply going to smear a small amount of wheel bearing grease over the surfaces. You can do that or copper RTV.

I ordered a shit ton of nuts from Belmetric. I am still going to use the OEM locking plates (with enlarged holes) and copper coated locking nuts. If you search their site you will see a variety of good stuff that should be very sufficient.

[KoukiMonsta]

Going with the 'old timer remedy'. I like the concept. Look forward to results. I think using the OE locking tabs should work - be sure to 'mold' them around the nuts as much as you can.

Side note. Belmetric is great. Curious to see what all you ordered.

[ixfxi]

www.belmetric.com/nc10x125x14-p-5373.html

I ordered a good variety of nuts that I could not acquire through the various sources like McMaster, mostly metric locknuts. However, I am leaning towards using these non-flanged copper coated nuts since that would allow me to still use the lock clips which will be hammered on around the nuts. These are still small enough where you can fit a 12mm wrench over it easily.

The project I am working on at the moment is this Miata, so I am currently working on cutting, bending and soldering hardlines with banjo fittings. Typically people are using stainless tubing for this application, but I have a crap ton of cunifer tubing here. Cunifer tubing is an alloy that is easy to bend and also holds up to the elements. Its commonly used for custom brake and fuel lines. So I am going to try that out.

Custom projects... so different from SR20DET land where we can buy hardlines and everything is ready to go. Oh well.

[ixfxi]

Here is an interesting question. Not sure if I should create a separate thread for this, but I'll try posting it here and see if it gets answered.

Turbo Oil Supply Restrictor

If the ball bearing turbos require a restrictor, then how come the S15 SR20DET runs the same hard lines as all the other SR20DET motors? The hard lines are not restrictive in any way.

Any advice here?

[e1_griego]

I thought the s15 turbo had a restrictor built into the CHRA.

[bc.]

I would start by tightening the bolts to spec... always use the correct lock washers... and replacing any bolt you pull off the is torque to yield. Re-using tty bolts is asking for problems but people do it all of the time.

[KoukiMonsta]

Thank you for that fantastic piece of information. I had no idea..

I have never used the stock hard lines. I find the flexibility of braided stainless quite helpful. That said, I haven't looked into them or thought about this. Interesting.

I have had an s15 turbo and the chra appeared to be just the same as other BB turbos. No sign of oil restriction. Side note there are s14 variations with BB turbos too.

Are ALL of the oem oil feed lines (to turbo) the same?

[TheRealSy90]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

Here is an interesting question. Not sure if I should create a separate thread for this, but I'll try posting it here and see if it gets answered.

Turbo Oil Supply Restrictor

If the ball bearing turbos require a restrictor, then how come the S15 SR20DET runs the same hard lines as all the other SR20DET motors? The hard lines are not restrictive in any way.

Any advice here?

The banjo bolts used with the factory hard lines are a sufficient restrictor for the oil feed. It's when you switch to a braided line setup that eliminates the banjo bolt that you then have to worry about including a 0.030" restrictor in the line itself.

[ixfxi]

Well, I like the hard line setup as there are no parts to fail. Big plus is obviously hard lines with the S14/S15 water neck is a clean setup.

I dont recall the OEM banjo bolt having any type of restriction in it. Also, I dont think the OEM banjo configuration is more restrictive than a flex line with AN fittings. This is why I asked the question.

[Scott@FontanaNissan]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

Well, I like the hard line setup as there are no parts to fail. Big plus is obviously hard lines with the S14/S15 water neck is a clean setup.

I dont recall the OEM banjo bolt having any type of restriction in it. Also, I dont think the OEM banjo configuration is more restrictive than a flex line with AN fittings. This is why I asked the question.

the lines are different for the S15 than for the S13

S13 Block oil feed banjo bolt: 16432-79E0A
S14 Block oil line banjo bolt: 16432-79E0A
S14 Turbo oil feed banjo Bolt 16432-69F1A
S14 Turbo Oil Feed Hard line: 15192-69F20
S15 Spec R Block line banjo bolt: 16432-79E0A
S15 Spec R Turbo side banjo bolt: 16432-69F1A
S15 Turbo Oil feed hard line: 15192-75F11


so I would imagine that the S15 hardline is what has the oil flow restriction since that is the only different part number between S14 and S15 (S13 line looks completely different compared to S15)

[ixfxi]

Thank you for the post, Scott. Being that I purchased all of these items new, I will look through my photo archives and report back.

I will confirm however, that the OEM S15 turbo oil banjo has no restriction. And if you search this ebay auction (item 301367502999) that people sell AN BANJO fittings with an aftermarket banjo bolt WITH built in restrictor.

Riddle me this. Why is the water banjo M14x1.5 and the oil banjo 7/16-24. Metric AND Standard? Christ.

[Scott@FontanaNissan]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

Thank you for the post, Scott. Being that I purchased all of these items new, I will look through my photo archives and report back.

I will confirm however, that the OEM S15 turbo oil banjo has no restriction. And if you search this ebay auction (item 301367502999) that people sell AN BANJO fittings with an aftermarket banjo bolt WITH built in restrictor.

Riddle me this. Why is the water banjo M14x1.5 and the oil banjo 7/16-24. Metric AND Standard? Christ.

Hey Mike,

no problem at all. i would imagine that the S15 banjo bolt has no restrictor because it is the same exact part number as the S14 banjo bolt which has no restriction either; this is also what leads me to think that the hardline is what has the restrict built in since it's the only part with a different number compared to S14.

however on the Water line VS oil feed banjo bolt, Garrett Manufactures the turbos for Nissan and the thread pitch Garrett uses for the oil feed Nissan has no control over it. since Garrett uses the same CHRA housing on allot of their GT series turbos i would imagine it was much easier for Nissan to buy a banjo bolt with the thread pitch for the Garrett housing than to pay Garrett tooling to manufacture a different CHRA just to be able to use a metric bolt. none of this is a fact of course it's just my opinion from my understanding on how Nissan operates at times.

-Juan

[ixfxi]

Sorry Juan, I keep forgetting you are using the Fontana NISSAN account (I have signatures disabled).

It seems the answer to this is not clear cut, because even Garrett states on their site that there is no "one size" when it comes to picking an oil restrictor as it is based on oil pressure. As we know, pressures between motors vary. With that said, the consensus is that its generally not used if you are running -3AN lines. I dont know how 3AN lines compare to the OEM hard lines, but I will look into this and get back to you guys. 3AN hose = 3/16 ID. Anyone know what the measurements are of the oil hard tubing?

Almost seems like a good idea (although overkill) to have an oil pressure sending unit on your turbo oil feed. Imagine toasting your turbo due to a small obstruction in that restrictor. That would totally suck balls. Hmmm... I just thought of a good idea though. A gauge may be overkill but a LOW PSI warning light doesnt seem like a bad idea. Not a bad idea at all..!

[Def]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

Sorry Juan, I keep forgetting you are using the Fontana NISSAN account (I have signatures disabled).

It seems the answer to this is not clear cut, because even Garrett states on their site that there is no "one size" when it comes to picking an oil restrictor as it is based on oil pressure. As we know, pressures between motors vary. With that said, the consensus is that its generally not used if you are running -3AN lines. I dont know how 3AN lines compare to the OEM hard lines, but I will look into this and get back to you guys. 3AN hose = 3/16 ID. Anyone know what the measurements are of the oil hard tubing?

Almost seems like a good idea (although overkill) to have an oil pressure sending unit on your turbo oil feed. Imagine toasting your turbo due to a small obstruction in that restrictor. That would totally suck balls. Hmmm... I just thought of a good idea though. A gauge may be overkill but a LOW PSI warning light doesnt seem like a bad idea. Not a bad idea at all..!

-4 AN has a fitting ID of approximately 0.17", which is less than 3/16". The dash only refers to TUBING OD, and the ID of the smaller fittings is typically equal to a 0.035" wall tube for that diameter.

I believe a -3 AN fitting ID is right around 0.105" or so. Which starts getting you close to the usual journal bearing restrictor sizes. For an engine with low oil pressure like some domestic or european engines, you can definitely use a -3 AN feed with no issues on the CHRA pressure.

Our engines run higher pressure (upwards of 80 psi with hot oil is not uncommon), so you need to drop the pressure some with a restrictor. 0.063" is a reasonable starting point for journal bearing turbos, and 0.035"ish is ok for BB turbos.


I know the feed banjo bolt for an S13 T25 definitely has a restrictor built into it. I seem to recall it being around 0.080", but it's been a long long time since I looked at it. I think I sold the S15 Spec R hardlines with the turbo off my S15 SR, but I think it also had a restrictor somewhere in it. Maybe the feed on the turbo like was talked about above?

[Def]

BTW, for the kids who haven't been on track, THIS is why we're having this conversation. T25 at 7-8 psi (wastegate base pressure), after a slow cool down lap (about 2.5-3 mins) then idling a bit in the pits:




The glow goes away after a minute or two of idling.

Timing was about 20-23 degrees BTDC if I remember right, a safe level on the track, but not super conservative for 93 octane.

[ixfxi]

Thats odd...

my turbo looks just like that, bright red, and its just sitting on the work bench.

Something must be wrong. I'm going to check my air fuel mixture & EGTs.

:-)

[ixfxi]

def, thats a spam bot quoting someone elses post earlier in this thread.....


question, i asked this before but no one has answered it yet.

EGT probe location. i would like to see some examples of where people have installed their probes.

my original manifold is an s13-type, no probe. i have an s14/s15 manifold that i plan on using as it has an EGR port that i will cut off, modify, and tap for EGT. that will acquire temp from cylinder #4. one of my buddies was talking shit saying that its better to get combined temp closer to the turbo. but then he said he's seen a lot of thermocouples fail and that its better to install them after turbo.

Banks for example, says that good quality thermocouples do not fail so no need to worry about them being ingested into the turbo.

i am curious what you guys have to say. anyone here have a damaged EGT probe? and if so, what brand was it? i would like to clear the air hear, so please speak up.


edit: here is a link to the article on banks website:
http://bankspower.com/techarticles/s...t-is-important

i trust gale banks. he's bald and bald people are smart.