This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread.

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Quoted from Baller Bolts:

We are the first company to bring you - Titanium Dress Up Kits, Full Suspension Hardware Upgrades, Full OEM replacement hardware kits. Our kits are designed to far exceed standard OEM fastener ratings. All of our titanium fasteners are Grade 5 (6AL-4V) and are heat treated to a yield strength of 140 KSI. We also have titanium fasteners that exceed 160 KSI in our titanium aircraft section. All of our alloy steel fasteners meet or exceed grade 10.9 and most are 12.9 grade.

That seems kinda sketch to me.

I don't like after treating. It makes the bolt stronger but more brittle. How are they testing the strength? Grade 5 is 81KSI and they're treating them to 140? I would rather have Grade 7 Ti-0.2Pb or Grade 12 Ti-0.3Mo-0.8Ni over heat treated Grade 5 Ti-6Al-4V.

10.9 and 12.9 are metric classes. I dunno if this is a typo or they are using standard grade and metric classes interchangeably.

I hate breaking bolts.

[GSXRJJordan]

The 10.9 and 12.9 question is kind of moot, as that's their "alloy steel" stuff, no Ti. I agree with S14DB about treatment from 81->140, seems like a bunch, but I don't have an allergy to using treated hardware in general.

[Def]

Originally Posted by S14DB

That seems kinda sketch to me.

I don't like after treating. It makes the bolt stronger but more brittle. How are they testing the strength? Grade 5 is 81KSI and they're treating them to 140? I would rather have Grade 7 Ti-0.2Pb or Grade 12 Ti-0.3Mo-0.8Ni over heat treated Grade 5 Ti-6Al-4V.

10.9 and 12.9 are metric classes. I dunno if this is a typo or they are using standard grade and metric classes interchangeably.

I hate breaking bolts.

160 KSI Titanium bolts are not brittle at all. I've got a few surplus Ti bolts on my car(kind of mismatched, as you don't really get exactly what you want and matching sets when you get them cheap).

[Pandapants]

Would any of you happen to know the distance between the bearing center and spindle with SPL outers?

[SoSideways]

Are you asking what the spacing is between the SPL outter tie rod ends and the knuckle is?

IIRC it's 1".

The bearing itself is 1.375" wide.

[Pandapants]

yeah, the knuckle. like this:



So, (1.375/2) + 1 ?

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by Pandapants

yeah, the knuckle. like this:

Adjustment range is 0.69" to 1.94" in 0.25" increments.

[Pandapants]

Thank you. Those 2 spacers per end, they're .25" each right? Is 2 the maximum you can fit per end?

[nieko]

There are 3.

one is a fatter cone shape, and then 2 thinner ones.

[mmdb]

Just a minor update on the driftworks spindles. I've aligned my car with minor toe in in the rear, zero toe in front, 2 degrees of neg camber all around, and 6 degrees of neg caster in front. With the DW spindles I feel that the tire is being used better through the corner. Turn in is crisp, mid corner feels neutral, and the best part to me is the corner exit has a tad bit of understeer. I can confidently punch the car out of corners much harder and sooner with these babies. Without the rear spindles the car would love to kick its rear ass out on corner exit.

In pursuit of a better gripping car I removed the rear sway bar as a means to give it more grip on corner exit. I plan on dropping the rear spring rates from 7kg down to bout 6kg (currently on loaner shocks.. feels like 6kg or even 5kg), running the oem stock sway bar, and maybe upping the front sway bar setting from mid to the inner most hole (running progress sway bars). I'm running 265/18/35 re01r's all around.

[nieko]

Im debating on spending a shitload on LCAs

Or DW spindles....

They both have their + and -

How much roll center adjustment do control arms like the SPL actually have though? Does anyone know? this is one of the reasons i'm leaning towards the spindles

more reasearchjhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[GripTerror]

go spindles if you got money its common sense. You're not just adjusting roll center but a few more things with the spindles

[Def]

Originally Posted by nieko

Im debating on spending a shitload on LCAs

Or DW spindles....

They both have their + and -

How much roll center adjustment do control arms like the SPL actually have though? Does anyone know? this is one of the reasons i'm leaning towards the spindles

more reasearchjhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I should have a pretty comprehensive upright/FLCA/tie rod solution coming out soon if you want to do the whole deal at once.

If you want to run really low just FLCA will never give you enough adjustment with stock spindles. The balljoint angle makes the LCA run into the brake rotor with a decent amount of spacing for a pretty low car.

[GripTerror]

Originally Posted by Def

I should have a pretty comprehensive upright/FLCA/tie rod solution coming out soon if you want to do the whole deal at once.

If you want to run really low just FLCA will never give you enough adjustment with stock spindles. The balljoint angle makes the LCA run into the brake rotor with a decent amount of spacing for a pretty low car.

Soon ey?

[BJManies]

I <3 this thread.

[Def]

Originally Posted by GripTerror

Soon ey?

Well, not like next week. But I've modeled the front suspension's geometry. It's every bit as bad as you'd suspect from just looking at it. Started designing the bits, then I've got to do a stress analysis on everything, then get the bits machined/plated etc. etc. Long process to make something that's not some Chinese ripoff of an existing piece, so patience young one... haha

[nieko]

I guess i will just deal with my asshole geometry until your stuff comes out, i have for the past 2 years anyway LOL

And i totally didnt think about the lca hitting the rotor and stuff. thanks for pointing that out.

i know you said not next week, but is there any estimated time?

[OptionZero]

def, should I get SPL tie rods and ends, or do i wait to give you money

[Jonnie Fraz]

Def never goes into anything without figuring it out first. I can only imagine how nice this is going to be.
Is this what you are looking to do?


More pics here
Patience young grasshopper....when you can snatch the ball joint then you will truly ready.

[RB20btight]

Fuck I love DriftWork's work LOL.

Thanks for the info bro,This is going to help a lot.

[SoSideways]

Well, if I would have known the SPL Parts bits spaced almost 2", I wouldn't have spent the money on making my own stuff.

Way to go internet, for providing insight into a common product that everyone seem to have bought!



And yes, I am fucking pissed off, because after spending so much fucking money into this setup, I might as well make it work.

2" of spacing, ladies and gentlemen, seem to be impossible, because of the stock ball joint angle, aka the KPI.

This past weekend, I basically spend a better part of 4 hours going over everything I did up front, and making all sorts of combination of adjustments to try and make things work.

Everytime, it comes down to either the spherical bearing binding up on the FLCA, or the spherical bearing up top on the camber plate binding up.

And just so everyone is clear, I've just been messing with the driver's side front suspension, that way when everything is sorted on this side, I can just do it once on the passenger side and be done with it.

I have taken the spring off of the coilover up front, and the only thing I put back on so I could bolt the knuckle back on is the lower bracket, not even a collar to lock it down, because I wanted the whole coilover to pivot with the knuckle with the least amount of force so I could see how things are doing without using much effort, as I had to keep putting the wheel on and jacking the suspension up, then turn the wheel left and right, etc.

The end result is that, either the spacer on the FLCA spherical bearing runs into the bearing mounting cup (that has been opened up via a stepped drill to 1-3/8" and chamfered) when rotated back, as if you're trying to make a left turn, or it doesn't bind at the spherical bearing part, but the nut that holds the camber plate to the coilover binds/bottoms out on the bearing cup up at the camber plate.

I've tried to put the tension rod above and below the FLCA so that the FLCA would be tilted differently to allow for a little more wiggle room at the spherical bearing, but mounting the tension rod on the bottom, and thus rotating the FLCA back a little bit seem to give more room for the spherical bearing to rotate front to back than mounting the tension rod on top will do.

I should also mention that, this whole process has been done with the 3/4" nut tightened by hand on the knuckle, on the count that I was trying different amount of spacing by ways of using shims and washers.

I also played with the FLCA length to see if it would give me a little more breathing room at the spherical bearing, due to the shittastic ball joint angle, and thus far, it seems the longer the lower arm is, the more centered the bolt/spacers will be within the bearing cup when it's at operating height.

I'm honestly so exhausted and tired with this whole setup, and have spent so much money on it for it to not work, that I am about to commit myself into a mental institute, because quite honestly, I just don't see this setup working.

Before anyone says, "what about aftermarket knuckles like the MA Motorsports Awesometron 5000 knuckles?"

I already thought of that, and while yes, those will be awesome with the tie rods being in play, I am having issues of binding at the FLCA without even involving the tie rod!!!!

Which means, even with those knuckles, it will bind at the same exact spot.

All because of the massive KPI angle.

Quite honestly, I just don't see this setup working. At least not with the ride height that I wanted to have, which is to barely tuck the tread on some 215/40/17 tires up front, or actually, soon to be 245/35/17s up front.

And yes, I've even tried to use less spacing than 2", and it still binded at the spherical bearing. Actually, binded much worse.

Which brings me to question just how exactly was it possible for guys with stock FLCAs and stock tie rods to slam their cars and not break anything, much less for everything to still work?

Granted, I've inspected the stock front suspension components left when I took everything off, and everything was busted. Both inner tie rods were busted and loose at the ball joints, and the outter tie rod ends were also busted at the ball joints. The stock FLCA ball joints were loose as well.



I don't know.

At this point, I am really, really, REALLY DISAPPOINTED in how this didn't work out.

Unless I'm missing something obvious that I am not seeing because I'm pretty much tunnel visioned on this whole thing.

Anyone else got any ideas?

[S14DB]

What Coilovers are you using?

[SoSideways]

Stance GR+

[GunmetalSR]

Originally Posted by Def

I should have a pretty comprehensive upright/FLCA/tie rod solution coming out soon if you want to do the whole deal at once.

If you want to run really low just FLCA will never give you enough adjustment with stock spindles. The balljoint angle makes the LCA run into the brake rotor with a decent amount of spacing for a pretty low car.

definitely waiting for this before i finish ordering suspension...really curious

Originally Posted by Jonnie Fraz

Def never goes into anything without figuring it out first. I can only imagine how nice this is going to be.
Is this what you are looking to do?


More pics here
Patience young grasshopper....when you can snatch the ball joint then you will truly ready.

^this = sex
any idea how much it cost? and how much it weighed compared to the stock spindles?

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by gunmetalsr

^this = sex
any idea how much it cost? And how much it weighed compared to the stock spindles?

$ 1,995

[drftwerks]

seems like a whole bunch of re-engineering by non engineers.
lol.

[SoSideways]

Def is an engineer.

[drftwerks]

1/65867586758
not bad.

[SoSideways]

Don't really see anyone else coming up with a brand new knuckle?

SP Tec did.

Driftwerks copied SP Tec's design, so nothing there.

GP Sport made some of their own.

That's about it.

Not sure if any of those companies hired actual engineers to come up with the design or not, but Def is not designing his knuckles based on any of those, so....

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by drftwerks

seems like a whole bunch of re-engineering by non engineers.
lol.

Maybe you should help rather then talking crap???