Writeup: custom Koni and Ground Control coilover setup assembly - Page 3 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

Rittmeister · 08-09-2009, 01:41 PM

The Eclipse rear (this is NOT a product line from Koni, it's a Koni shock for a Mitsubishi Eclipse) is functionally the same as a Koni S13 rear shock, it's just a few mm shorter overall (doesn't matter if you're lowered) and has a 12mm diameter shaft instead of the S13's 10mm shaft. The larger diameter is necessary to accomodate the adjuster within the shaft, so you can turn the knob at the top to adjust it, instead of removing it from the car like you must do with the S13 shock.

As far as uppers, you just use the Tein plate or the factory mount, with whatever bushings and spacers match up. You can get to the adjuster by opening the trunk. In a coupe you have to cut out some of the trunk trim, but if you've got an upper strut bar you already did that anyway.

For threaded sleeves, you use Ground Control just like with the front. No offense, but Duh!

Here's a pic the first time I installed it, before removing it to ditch the GC upper mount in favor of a Vorshlag unit.

And here's a detail of the top, after some surgery, but showing the adjuster etc.

Like in OptionZero's directions, you just need a spacer under the Tein mount, and a bronze bushing from McMaster to match the Tein plate to the strut shaft. The OD is 18mm and the ID is 12mm, same as the shaft.

Hope that helps.

plusONETEN · 08-09-2009, 07:06 PM

hell yea man, thats exactly what I was looking for. what's that thing the threaded sleeve resting on? does the shock have a built in spring perch, or just those little rings for them to sit on... like this: http://www.redshiftmotorsports.com/m...er%20Large.JPG

GC sleeve is pretty short, (2"?) but should be legit as long as i get the right length spring... how lowered is your car anyways?

OptionZero · 08-09-2009, 07:44 PM

Look at the picture of the housing
there's a perch for the sleeve to rest on

Rittmeister · 08-09-2009, 07:53 PM

Yeah, the pic shows it. The shock body has a snap ring like the pic you linked, and then the silver perch sits on that.

You can't use a longer sleeve or it sticks above the top of the shock body and the upper assembly could hit it under compression. Bad juju. It doesn't have a huge range of adjustment and you can't slam it to the ground, but then most guys don't understand that if you lower it that far you've compromised your roll centers anyway...

I just put up pics in the Pic Thread - look in the last couple days for a silver S13 coupe with Silvia front and R33 wheels.

plusONETEN · 08-09-2009, 08:37 PM

damn, that car looks sick. I like the ride height, thats probably about what im going to be going for... I want to run 275/40R17s though so i might want to go just a little lower lower if possible because of the taller tires.

shouldn't break the shock bottoming out or anything... it'll have bumpstops and fairly stiff springs... but will it affect the damping in any other way?
EDIT: just found on konis site that yellows are not position sensitive, neato!

my ball joints are shot... i might get roll center adjusters but i think its lame to pay an extra hundred bucks just for a shank thats a little longer...

Bumnah · 08-09-2009, 09:58 PM

Thread saved! Great write up. I'm looking more and more into this setup!

adam s · 08-10-2009, 01:11 AM

great write up!

chitownguy · 08-10-2009, 10:55 PM

My front spring perch just sits on top of my spring and makes a lot of noise over bumps. Any of you guys know of some way to get rid of this or at least quiet it. Pretty sure Vorschlag camber plates would've got rid of this but I had to go a different route. This is on an e30 btw but I don't think it would matter.

plusONETEN · 08-11-2009, 08:56 AM

a few more random questions...

i get that the torrington bearing or the vorschlag top hats allow the spring to rotate when you spin the steering wheel, but what about the shaft of the strut?
does the shaft rotate separately from the shock body, or what?

Also, say i catch 5 feet or air in my 240sx (lol) what will happen to the springs? because if the suspension droops too far, they could un-seat, which would be bad. I think the konis have internal bumpstops in regards to droop travel... are you guys running them set up in a way that it keeps the springs on the perches, or what?

is there such a thing as an extra short helper spring? Seeing as how theyre about a half inch when compressed, theyre going to cut into my ride height because I want the perches above the tires for extra wide tires (like McCoys older setup: http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/dat..._spacer_02.jpg)

It might not ever be a problem, but it would be lame if the spring unseated every time you lifted a wheel....

Wave_s13 · 08-12-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plusONETEN

a few more random questions...

Also, say i catch 5 feet or air in my 240sx (lol) what will happen to the springs? because if the suspension droops too far, they could un-seat, which would be bad. I think the konis have internal bumpstops in regards to droop travel... are you guys running them set up in a way that it keeps the springs on the perches, or what?

is there such a thing as an extra short helper spring? Seeing as how theyre about a half inch when compressed, theyre going to cut into my ride height because I want the perches above the tires for extra wide tires (like McCoys older setup: http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/dat..._spacer_02.jpg)

It might not ever be a problem, but it would be lame if the spring unseated every time you lifted a wheel....

I actually was thinking about this last night. Every time you jack up your car, would the spring be unseated?

plusONETEN · 08-12-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wave_s13

I actually was thinking about this last night. Every time you jack up your car, would the spring be unseated?

well, if you had the GC collar high enough that the spring was touching both the collar and the hat when the shock is fully extended, then it would stay on the perches... but that might mean a higher ride height than you want... this of course depends on the position of the shocks range of travel (like 5 inches) vs the springs range of travel (say 3.5 inches)
It woudnt be a bad thing to have the springs be at nearly its max free length at max droop, atleast not in any way that i can see (if the spring rate was super stiff, i think it could damage the shock though, but maybe not), but that might require some sort of threaded piece to adjust the position of the shock, not just the springs, unless you made the housings the exact right position to begin with.

but yea, if i could just see a pic on one of these setups at max droop (on jacks like you said) then i'd have a better idea of how my setup is going to work out...

murda-c · 08-12-2009, 02:42 PM

With the konis, i've read it takes a good while for the wheel to drop down even when on a lift because of the high rebound damping.

Meaning that the shock will never extend past where the spring can push it while driving.

plusONETEN · 08-12-2009, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murda-c

With the konis, i've read it takes a good while for the wheel to drop down even when on a lift because of the high rebound damping.

Meaning that the shock will never extend past where the spring can push it while driving.

makes sense... it would depend on the spring rate as well as the rebound.

But i never really see keeper springs on 500lb springs, its usually on stiffer ones, but not always.

I still wonder how far (and fast) they unseat when the car is on jacks though...

murda-c · 08-12-2009, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plusONETEN

makes sense... it would depend on the spring rate as well as the rebound.

But i never really see keeper springs on 500lb springs, its usually on stiffer ones, but not always.

I still wonder how far (and fast) they unseat when the car is on jacks though...

Found the post I was looking for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AceInHole

The Konis will pretty much retain the spring from damping force alone. The off-the-shelf yellows on full stiff take forever to return to full length if left alone, and the 8611's I have can hold up the wheel and tire when jacking the car up (untill you actually push it down). Basically, the springs won't unseat unless you're airborne for a few seconds.

amp2345 · 08-15-2009, 09:57 PM

Would anyone be able to explain why the housings are worth it vs just hacking up factory shocks? it look like perches where GC sits are designed for GC but besides that i'd really like to hear some facts as i am really looking to do this upgrade on my s14.

Def · 08-16-2009, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amp2345

Would anyone be able to explain why the housings are worth it vs just hacking up factory shocks? it look like perches where GC sits are designed for GC but besides that i'd really like to hear some facts as i am really looking to do this upgrade on my s14.

You can't use 861x series struts with the stock strut housing. Those require a gland nut up top, and I believe are too big of a diameter for the stock housing.

OptionZero · 08-16-2009, 12:25 AM

lower ride height
added travel
more wheel clearance inside
don't have to hack and measure yourself

beefcake6681 · 08-25-2009, 02:28 PM

Will those part numbers (Vorshlag, McMaster, Torrington) work if you use Koni yellows? I don't know the diameter of the shaft for Koni yellows.

OptionZero · 08-25-2009, 09:37 PM

Yellows have a different diameter. They're also stand-alone in the rear (no housing required).

They don't handle lowness or stiffer rates as well as the 86xx's either.

koukimatt · 10-28-2009, 02:42 PM

A while back, I got a set of Koni Yellows and the Ground Control kit with sleeves and 400/300 Eibach ERS springs. It worked ok on my S14 but it made a lot of noise -- mainly squeaks and creaks in the rear -- and I didn't have camber plates for the front so I couldn't get the car aligned properly. I swapped out that setup for a set of Stances with 8/6 springs, and recently I traded the Stances to my brother for Tanabes with 10/8 springs. The Tanabes are too low for me, even at their highest point, and both the Stances and Tanabes are too harsh.

My question is: can I convert the Koni Yellow + GC setup to something similar to what OptionZero did? What parts do I need to do it?

Def · 10-28-2009, 04:02 PM

Squeaks and creaks? Never heard anything like that out of any Koni setup I've been around, except maybe the sound of fluid moving in the shocks at low temperatures(entirely normal, and not very loud).

All you need for the droop in the rear is a set of tender springs if you think that's causing noise - it isn't rocket science on putting them in. You need a spacer and a 2.5" ID set of tender springs.

koukimatt · 11-02-2009, 11:33 AM

The Koni Yellows that I have are designed for the OEM front housings and OEM springs. They aren't the same as the race inserts. Koni part numbers: Front 8641 1364Sport, rear 8040 1226Sport.

Front shock shaft diameters, measured with a digital caliper: 21.75 mm main shaft, 13.39 mm top. Above the top section is a short taper, and then the threads for the top nut(s).

Rear shock shaft diameters: 11.75 mm main shaft, 9.91 mm top. There is a bead between the body and the top section; it's a few mm wider than the main part of the shock shaft.

Will the Vorshlag spring perches and the Tein mounts fit on these shocks?

bigOdom1 · 11-02-2009, 12:07 PM

mine were very loud creaking and squeaking until i got some miles on them

smelly240 · 11-02-2009, 02:02 PM

semi off topic - but not completely

konis are badass - big ups.

I used the agx/gc setup before and if u go low - they unseat and POPBOOIIIIINNYOOIOIOINNNG back into place when u jack it... lol just like old jdm ones :P

konis probably wont do that - and if ur that serious u wont be that low anyhow.

koukimatt · 11-10-2009, 11:21 PM

No one replied to my question... Will the Vorshlag spring perches and the Tein mounts fit on OEM-style Koni Yellows?

Spring Break '92 · 11-11-2009, 03:32 AM

Is it possible to get everything but the springs from GC?

NINJASPY · 11-11-2009, 04:06 AM

why wont they fit? read the first page, look at number 8. The diameter of the shaft must fit inside the top bearing piece, either drill it out or replace or it might fit who knows. the link says it fits koni. you just need to know the shaft size.

the upper spring perch will fit as long as the inner diameter of the spring is the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by koukimatt

No one replied to my question... Will the Vorshlag spring perches and the Tein mounts fit on OEM-style Koni Yellows?

yes, call them... might take a few calls, maybe some convincing, they usually resist because they get calls from kids all the time. But times are tough and everyone needs to make sales.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spring Break '92

Is it possible to get everything but the springs from GC?

Def · 11-11-2009, 08:48 AM

GC is run by a bunch of aholes. Chances are they won't sell you individual pieces, and they will probably give you quite a bit of attitude for your trouble.

SoSideways · 11-11-2009, 05:38 PM

Aww McCoy's pics are down!

I'd eventually move up to the 8610 / yellow setup, but right now, I need to spend the money to get the car back on the road instead.

Great write up!

McCoy · 11-11-2009, 05:59 PM

Hmmm, looks like the website I'm hosting from is down currently... it should be back up later I hope. And agreed on a good writeup!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoSideways

Aww McCoy's pics are down!

Great write up!

08-09-2009, 01:41 PM	#1
Rittmeister Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Cincinnati OH Age: 47 Posts: 1,033 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	The Eclipse rear (this is NOT a product line from Koni, it's a Koni shock for a Mitsubishi Eclipse) is functionally the same as a Koni S13 rear shock, it's just a few mm shorter overall (doesn't matter if you're lowered) and has a 12mm diameter shaft instead of the S13's 10mm shaft. The larger diameter is necessary to accomodate the adjuster within the shaft, so you can turn the knob at the top to adjust it, instead of removing it from the car like you must do with the S13 shock. As far as uppers, you just use the Tein plate or the factory mount, with whatever bushings and spacers match up. You can get to the adjuster by opening the trunk. In a coupe you have to cut out some of the trunk trim, but if you've got an upper strut bar you already did that anyway. For threaded sleeves, you use Ground Control just like with the front. No offense, but Duh! Here's a pic the first time I installed it, before removing it to ditch the GC upper mount in favor of a Vorshlag unit. And here's a detail of the top, after some surgery, but showing the adjuster etc. Like in OptionZero's directions, you just need a spacer under the Tein mount, and a bronze bushing from McMaster to match the Tein plate to the strut shaft. The OD is 18mm and the ID is 12mm, same as the shaft. Hope that helps. __________________ E36 M3 - new project 1990 240SR - screamed down the road

08-09-2009, 07:53 PM	#4
Rittmeister Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Cincinnati OH Age: 47 Posts: 1,033 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	Yeah, the pic shows it. The shock body has a snap ring like the pic you linked, and then the silver perch sits on that. You can't use a longer sleeve or it sticks above the top of the shock body and the upper assembly could hit it under compression. Bad juju. It doesn't have a huge range of adjustment and you can't slam it to the ground, but then most guys don't understand that if you lower it that far you've compromised your roll centers anyway... I just put up pics in the Pic Thread - look in the last couple days for a silver S13 coupe with Silvia front and R33 wheels. __________________ E36 M3 - new project 1990 240SR - screamed down the road

08-09-2009, 08:37 PM	#5
plusONETEN Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: USA Age: 37 Posts: 34 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	damn, that car looks sick. I like the ride height, thats probably about what im going to be going for... I want to run 275/40R17s though so i might want to go just a little lower lower if possible because of the taller tires. shouldn't break the shock bottoming out or anything... it'll have bumpstops and fairly stiff springs... but will it affect the damping in any other way? EDIT: just found on konis site that yellows are not position sensitive, neato! my ball joints are shot... i might get roll center adjusters but i think its lame to pay an extra hundred bucks just for a shank thats a little longer... Last edited by plusONETEN; 08-11-2009 at 05:20 PM..

08-09-2009, 09:58 PM	#6
Bumnah Zilvia Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: VA Posts: 291 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Thread saved! Great write up. I'm looking more and more into this setup! __________________ bumnah.com/trakpak

08-10-2009, 10:55 PM	#8
chitownguy Zilvia Junkie Join Date: May 2006 Location: San Antonio Age: 35 Posts: 466 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	My front spring perch just sits on top of my spring and makes a lot of noise over bumps. Any of you guys know of some way to get rid of this or at least quiet it. Pretty sure Vorschlag camber plates would've got rid of this but I had to go a different route. This is on an e30 btw but I don't think it would matter. __________________ ShakotanOscar.blogspot.com

08-09-2009, 07:06 PM	#2
plusONETEN Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: USA Age: 37 Posts: 34 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	hell yea man, thats exactly what I was looking for. what's that thing the threaded sleeve resting on? does the shock have a built in spring perch, or just those little rings for them to sit on... like this: http://www.redshiftmotorsports.com/m...er%20Large.JPG GC sleeve is pretty short, (2"?) but should be legit as long as i get the right length spring... how lowered is your car anyways?

08-09-2009, 07:44 PM	#3
OptionZero Post Whore! Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norcal Age: 40 Posts: 6,262 Trader Rating: (2) Rides Gallery: OptionZero Feedback Score: 2 reviews	Look at the picture of the housing there's a perch for the sleeve to rest on

08-11-2009, 08:56 AM	#9
plusONETEN Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: USA Age: 37 Posts: 34 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	a few more random questions... i get that the torrington bearing or the vorschlag top hats allow the spring to rotate when you spin the steering wheel, but what about the shaft of the strut? does the shaft rotate separately from the shock body, or what? Also, say i catch 5 feet or air in my 240sx (lol) what will happen to the springs? because if the suspension droops too far, they could un-seat, which would be bad. I think the konis have internal bumpstops in regards to droop travel... are you guys running them set up in a way that it keeps the springs on the perches, or what? is there such a thing as an extra short helper spring? Seeing as how theyre about a half inch when compressed, theyre going to cut into my ride height because I want the perches above the tires for extra wide tires (like McCoys older setup: http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/dat..._spacer_02.jpg) It might not ever be a problem, but it would be lame if the spring unseated every time you lifted a wheel.... Last edited by plusONETEN; 08-11-2009 at 09:05 PM..

08-12-2009, 02:42 PM	#12
murda-c Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montgomery County, MD Age: 36 Posts: 3,197 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	With the konis, i've read it takes a good while for the wheel to drop down even when on a lift because of the high rebound damping. Meaning that the shock will never extend past where the spring can push it while driving. __________________

08-15-2009, 09:57 PM	#15
amp2345 Zilvia Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: VA Age: 41 Posts: 205 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Would anyone be able to explain why the housings are worth it vs just hacking up factory shocks? it look like perches where GC sits are designed for GC but besides that i'd really like to hear some facts as i am really looking to do this upgrade on my s14.

08-16-2009, 12:25 AM	#17
OptionZero Post Whore! Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norcal Age: 40 Posts: 6,262 Trader Rating: (2) Rides Gallery: OptionZero Feedback Score: 2 reviews	lower ride height added travel more wheel clearance inside don't have to hack and measure yourself

08-25-2009, 02:28 PM	#18
beefcake6681 Zilvia Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Vacaville, CA Age: 42 Posts: 284 Trader Rating: (8) Feedback Score: 8 reviews	Will those part numbers (Vorshlag, McMaster, Torrington) work if you use Koni yellows? I don't know the diameter of the shaft for Koni yellows. __________________

08-25-2009, 09:37 PM	#19
OptionZero Post Whore! Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norcal Age: 40 Posts: 6,262 Trader Rating: (2) Rides Gallery: OptionZero Feedback Score: 2 reviews	Yellows have a different diameter. They're also stand-alone in the rear (no housing required). They don't handle lowness or stiffer rates as well as the 86xx's either.

10-28-2009, 02:42 PM	#20
koukimatt Join Date: May 2007 Location: Dallas Posts: 37 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Convert Yellow + GC to this setup? A while back, I got a set of Koni Yellows and the Ground Control kit with sleeves and 400/300 Eibach ERS springs. It worked ok on my S14 but it made a lot of noise -- mainly squeaks and creaks in the rear -- and I didn't have camber plates for the front so I couldn't get the car aligned properly. I swapped out that setup for a set of Stances with 8/6 springs, and recently I traded the Stances to my brother for Tanabes with 10/8 springs. The Tanabes are too low for me, even at their highest point, and both the Stances and Tanabes are too harsh. My question is: can I convert the Koni Yellow + GC setup to something similar to what OptionZero did? What parts do I need to do it?

10-28-2009, 04:02 PM	#21
Def Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,701 Trader Rating: (16) Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Squeaks and creaks? Never heard anything like that out of any Koni setup I've been around, except maybe the sound of fluid moving in the shocks at low temperatures(entirely normal, and not very loud). All you need for the droop in the rear is a set of tender springs if you think that's causing noise - it isn't rocket science on putting them in. You need a spacer and a 2.5" ID set of tender springs. __________________ S13 Hatch - Goes around tracks quickly DEFSPORT

11-02-2009, 11:33 AM	#22
koukimatt Join Date: May 2007 Location: Dallas Posts: 37 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	The Koni Yellows that I have are designed for the OEM front housings and OEM springs. They aren't the same as the race inserts. Koni part numbers: Front 8641 1364Sport, rear 8040 1226Sport. Front shock shaft diameters, measured with a digital caliper: 21.75 mm main shaft, 13.39 mm top. Above the top section is a short taper, and then the threads for the top nut(s). Rear shock shaft diameters: 11.75 mm main shaft, 9.91 mm top. There is a bead between the body and the top section; it's a few mm wider than the main part of the shock shaft. Will the Vorshlag spring perches and the Tein mounts fit on these shocks? Last edited by koukimatt; 11-02-2009 at 01:09 PM..

11-02-2009, 12:07 PM	#23
bigOdom1 Nissanaholic! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Auburn/Birmingham AL Age: 40 Posts: 1,817 Trader Rating: (4) Rides Gallery: bigOdom1 Feedback Score: 4 reviews	mine were very loud creaking and squeaking until i got some miles on them __________________ my car domain that good review thread

11-02-2009, 02:02 PM	#24
smelly240 Nissanaholic! Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Philaburbia Age: 46 Posts: 2,137 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	semi off topic - but not completely konis are badass - big ups. I used the agx/gc setup before and if u go low - they unseat and POPBOOIIIIINNYOOIOIOINNNG back into place when u jack it... lol just like old jdm ones :P konis probably wont do that - and if ur that serious u wont be that low anyhow. __________________ HREs on a S13 - check, 6262 - check, Girlfriend.... - nope

11-10-2009, 11:21 PM	#25
koukimatt Join Date: May 2007 Location: Dallas Posts: 37 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	No one replied to my question... Will the Vorshlag spring perches and the Tein mounts fit on OEM-style Koni Yellows?

11-11-2009, 03:32 AM	#26
Spring Break '92 Zilvia Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: unconcious on Daytona Beach Posts: 180 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Is it possible to get everything but the springs from GC? __________________ BOOYAH!

11-11-2009, 08:48 AM	#28
Def Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,701 Trader Rating: (16) Feedback Score: 16 reviews	GC is run by a bunch of aholes. Chances are they won't sell you individual pieces, and they will probably give you quite a bit of attitude for your trouble. __________________ S13 Hatch - Goes around tracks quickly DEFSPORT

11-11-2009, 05:38 PM	#29
SoSideways Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 你老母 Posts: 4,371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Aww McCoy's pics are down! I'd eventually move up to the 8610 / yellow setup, but right now, I need to spend the money to get the car back on the road instead. Great write up! __________________ SoSideway's iTrader Rating!! *SoSideways' Review Thread!!* http://sosideways.wordpress.com/