This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread.

[KA240SX808]

From the looks of it I'm going to say no.
If you do it shouldn't be a big amount. .5-.75" if anything.

[Matej]

Do not mean to advertise in here, but I have an extra pair of never-used MAX inners that I do not think I will need.

[Touge_Monster]

I didnt really want to move the rack because of the ackerman change. I probably wouldnt notice a difference though.

Just got my inners from PBM. Super nice and a good price too.

Are you guys that are running the PBM inners running dust boots?

[az_240]

^Yes on the dust boots... I had to cut slits in the smaller sides so they would fit around the larger "rods" but still hold fine with zip ties.

[Johnny_K]

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

I havent posted any pix in here recently so I'll show my new settings. Before I was running low caster and eccentric rack spacers. Now as experimentation I flipped the eccentric spacers and added offset tie rod mounts, added caster within 1 degree over stock, deleted wheel spacers, added maximum track width to LCA, moved coilover top mount all the way wide and 1cm back from center, took off welded knuckles and installed the new forged knuckles. 4 degrees negative camber and a little toe out. This setup is cool for around 62 degrees and pretty parallel steering but I added some bump stop to dial it back from MAX angle since things tend to move a lil more in motion than these static shots. Hunting a snappy transition & going real deep off the straight to the skid pad at ASB streets course next month.

Trying to find the best camera angle to show my steering angle

Did u like this set up? Any major advantages with this setup over ur previous setup? Have U make ang changes since ASB. And do I mind sharing ur wheel and tire specs?

[Johnny_K]

Originally Posted by icantdrift

Another knuckle option about to be available from Keisler Automation.







I should have one of the first sets in hand the next week or two to install and test. Not as fancy as the TDP or GKTech parts as far as the machining is concerned, but a viable option stateside at a very reasonable price. I'll post more after I've done the install and verified fitment/steering angles/etc.

Anyone on here have this set? Wondering how u like them and how they are holding up.

[godrifttoday]

i'm no engineer, but having one bolt for the tension rod doesn't seem like a good idea. There must be a reason oem LCA use 2 holes.

[PoorMans180SX]

Def doesn't have much good to say about that kit, and since he designs parts for our cars pretty regularly and is actually an engineer, I trust his judgement.

[JDMcheddar]

I have just recently just purchased PBM Front Cast Knuckles. I also have their Eccentric Rack Bushings. S14 Inners and MOOG outers I believe. Eventually will be upgrading those with lower control arms. My question is I have HICAS Rack currently in the car. With these Knuckles will the steering be to quick? Are there any advantages in still having a Hicas Rack? Haven't really found anyone who has run a Hicas Rack with knuckles. Thanks!

[Johnny_K]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Def doesn't have much good to say about that kit, and since he designs parts for our cars pretty regularly and is actually an engineer, I trust his judgement.

I'm not following... U don't have good things to say about the Keisler kit but trust his engineering?

[marks14]

Originally Posted by Johnny_K

I'm not following... U don't have good things to say about the Keisler kit but trust his engineering?

Def is someone's username. PoorMans180sx is saying Def doesn't like Keisler's kit. Def has engineering experience so PoorMans180sx trusts what Def says.

[derass]

Originally Posted by JDMcheddar

I have HICAS Rack currently in the car. With these Knuckles will the steering be to quick? Are there any advantages in still having a Hicas Rack? Haven't really found anyone who has run a Hicas Rack with knuckles. Thanks!

I have modified knuckles and the HICAS rack, and don't find the steering to be too quick. My car originally had HICAS, so it is the original rack.

[Johnny_K]

Originally Posted by marks14

Def is someone's username. PoorMans180sx is saying Def doesn't like Keisler's kit. Def has engineering experience so PoorMans180sx trusts what Def says.

Ah makes sense. Thxs for clarifying.

[JDMcheddar]

Originally Posted by derass

I have modified knuckles and the HICAS rack, and don't find the steering to be too quick. My car originally had HICAS, so it is the original rack.

Have you felt there is any benefit to having one over a factory rack?

[VegasDrifterS13]

Ok so, as far as complete kits Go, Is Keisler Automation the only one made in the USA? Google isnt helping me get much further than all the Euro made kits & modded knuckles all over

. Im in the market for a drop knuckle setup, 0 ackerman & 65* of lock. Seems Like the Only Guarantee of those achievements so far is Wisefab?

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[PoorMans180SX]

As far as complete kits go, it's either Wisefab or TDP.

[VegasDrifterS13]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

As far as complete kits go, it's either Wisefab or TDP.

I will google TDP. Thx.

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[PoorMans180SX]

If you want to see pictures installed, I have plenty posted in my build thread. I'm one of two to have the kit in the states as far as I know.

[VegasDrifterS13]

Ok so TDP looks shoddy. Are those In production yet? Website looks like a Beta Version in a computer generated diagram. Says February Release, But no Year of what February they mean.... ???

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[VegasDrifterS13]

Originally Posted by VegasDrifterS13

Ok so TDP looks shoddy. Are those In production yet? Website looks like a Beta Version in a computer generated diagram. Says February Release, But no Year of what February they mean.... ???

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By Shoddy I mean the way it looks in the examples at the attatchment points. Like every Heim is attatched to the LCA/TEN arm via a seperate piece held with 4 fasteners...

Keisler is lookin much better than that example on TDP.....

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[PoorMans180SX]

Check my build thread. It's built like that so you can adjust everything properly. The crossmember heim needs to pivot to adjust caster there.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/TDPie/229428102875

[VegasDrifterS13]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Check my build thread. It's built like that so you can adjust everything properly. The crossmember heim needs to pivot to adjust caster there.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/TDPie/229428102875

Hmm. Idk. Still could be one piece. I wish this was a simple choice....

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[Johnny_K]

^ don't u hang around get nutz? I would think Forrest has a good recommendations.

I'm torn to. I want to get PBM full kit cause it works and good quality but expensive compared to what Abercrombie and Kaisler. I've seen Kaisler in person and it looks nice but not sure how it would hold up.

I plan on competing in a proam series in 2014 and want to have spare suspension parts and if I want with PbM the cost would b pretty high. Abercrombie kit seems like the most effective just wondering if it will perform like PBM.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by VegasDrifterS13

Hmm. Idk. Still could be one piece. I wish this was a simple choice....

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No, it couldn't be a single piece. Not unless they made it non-adjustable. And everything has double adjusters so it can be adjusted on-car. You can't clamp double adjusters without a clamping block.

Nothing is ever simple when it comes to suspension setup. There is always a compromise.

[VegasDrifterS13]

Originally Posted by Johnny_K

^ don't u hang around get nutz? I would think Forrest has a good recommendations.

I'm torn to. I want to get PBM full kit cause it works and good quality but expensive compared to what Abercrombie and Kaisler. I've seen Kaisler in person and it looks nice but not sure how it would hold up.

I plan on competing in a proam series in 2014 and want to have spare suspension parts and if I want with PbM the cost would b pretty high. Abercrombie kit seems like the most effective just wondering if it will perform like PBM.

Yes. I know Forrest. They Build Knuckles over there, but I want the advantages of the Geometry in the drop knuckles and One Piece LCA/tension rods.


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[VegasDrifterS13]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

No, it couldn't be a single piece. Not unless they made it non-adjustable. And everything has double adjusters so it can be adjusted on-car. You can't clamp double adjusters without a clamping block.

Nothing is ever simple when it comes to suspension setup. There is always a compromise.

Im not following what exactly youre saying. There are a few kits Ive seen that are one piece arms.

Wisefabs LCA & Tension rod arm is all one piece and the heims thread into it. If you adjust the tension rod heim the caster moves back and forth.

I dont see why those ends need to bolt onto the TDP arm, Youre Saying theyre "double adjustable" ? As in Caster ??? What two adjustments are there besides back and forth? Not being rude. Sincerely asking these questions...

Seems like theres just more areas that could break that way. Also the Keisler Arms look way beefier than TDP. The Keisler parts are 1" or thicker in every place and are one machined piece. Idk. Im not an engineer, but they look Vastly Different in strength to me. Id like to hear a real Engineers opinion about these constructions.

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[PoorMans180SX]

You can't really adjust caster very much with a Wisefab arm. If you think about what is actually happening when you're moving those heims, soon the arm will bind without a pivoting joint at the crossmember. That's not what it was designed to do anyway.

I mean double adjusters as in you can adjust them while they're on the car. There is no need to unbolt the arm, take it out, adjust it, and put it back in. You can simply undo the clamp, loosen the nut, and adjust. This can be a positive or a negative I suppose.

These arms are beefy as heck, Keisler's are just a square chunk of aluminum. The Keisler kit will also never pull as much angle as Wisefab or TDP because the tension rod location.

You can set the TDP kit up any way you'd like it. High caster, low caster, tons of camber, a little camber, stock like ackerman, a little ackerman, zero ackerman, negative ackerman, etc, etc, etc.

Wisefab is nice because it's bolt in and go. You've got a product engineered to work one way and it does that very well.

TDP is great because you can adjust everything. It's more complicated, but you can tailor it to any driving style you'd like.

Keisler is... cheap. I'd rather have a PSM setup on my car, especially with the new stuff they're coming out with. Yeah you have to buy it all separate, but at least it's made by a company who tests their stuff in the field and actually has some automotive experience.

Hopefully that gives you a nice, rounded view of the positive and negatives of the kits.

[VegasDrifterS13]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

You can't really adjust caster very much with a Wisefab arm. If you think about what is actually happening when you're moving those heims, soon the arm will bind without a pivoting joint at the crossmember. That's not what it was designed to do anyway.

I mean double adjusters as in you can adjust them while they're on the car. There is no need to unbolt the arm, take it out, adjust it, and put it back in. You can simply undo the clamp, loosen the nut, and adjust. This can be a positive or a negative I suppose.

These arms are beefy as heck, Keisler's are just a square chunk of aluminum. The Keisler kit will also never pull as much angle as Wisefab or TDP because the tension rod location.

You can set the TDP kit up any way you'd like it. High caster, low caster, tons of camber, a little camber, stock like ackerman, a little ackerman, zero ackerman, negative ackerman, etc, etc, etc.

Wisefab is nice because it's bolt in and go. You've got a product engineered to work one way and it does that very well.

TDP is great because you can adjust everything. It's more complicated, but you can tailor it to any driving style you'd like.

Keisler is... cheap. I'd rather have a PSM setup on my car, especially with the new stuff they're coming out with. Yeah you have to buy it all separate, but at least it's made by a company who tests their stuff in the field and actually has some automotive experience.

Hopefully that gives you a nice, rounded view of the positive and negatives of the kits.

Thanks for clarifying. So basically every end of the TDP arms are adjustable in a pivoting fashion in relation to the heim? Thats what I got anyway, correct me if Im wrong.
Wooooowwww. Thats an Alignment shops nightmare huh? Lol.

Thats awesome for some R&D actually, that kit seems well rounded as far as it can be adjusted to anyones liking AND sounds like a PIA for any unexperienced grease monkey. Hahaha. where do you live man? I see snow, nowhere near me probably but I wanna see that kit in person.

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[PoorMans180SX]

Yeah I'm in Michigan. You'll get to see some action shots/footage soon, I just ordered everything else I need to make the car run and drive.

[Def]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Def doesn't have much good to say about that kit, and since he designs parts for our cars pretty regularly and is actually an engineer, I trust his judgement.

I hate to rag on somebody's kit that they obviously spent a lot of time on, but I think they missed some of the obvious loading of some of the suspension parts.

The spindle/upright is primarily loaded in bending across its whole length (strut pulling one way, bearing pulling/bending another way, ball joint pulling the same way as the strut). They went with thin material that's really lightened for cost reasons, but I think you'd find that it has quite a bit less bending rigidity than the stock upright/knuckle. There are some more things I'm not super excited about with the kit, but I'll leave it at that. Although it might be fine for someone just drifting on tiny tires and never planning to really load up the suspension. Hard to say without more detailed analysis.


I worked with Greg at GKTech and helped him with some of the design criteria of his knuckles/spindles/uprights. It increased the cost, but his design surpasses the stock spindle's stiffness in all loading cases. A lot of people underestimate this, but just a little deflection at the spindle can create huge (like 1 degree plus) alignment changes at the contact patch.