GT2871 USERS. SR motor

[codyace]

Originally Posted by gotta240

well.....how'd it do????? And what dyno?!?! I'm still looking for a good pfc tuner near san diego or even LA

Why not hit up Steve Shadows?

[Aoshi112]

Originally Posted by gotta240

well.....how'd it do????? And what dyno?!?! I'm still looking for a good pfc tuner near san diego or even LA

Koji from Driftspeed is tuning again at a new location. Autotalent in Carson CA. Definitely one of the best PFC tuners in Socal.

[EsChassisLove]

No tune. For one Koji pissed me off by taking 3 hours to install fuel injectors, hook up my external wastegates vacuum lines correctly and straighten out my idle. All 3 of those were 15 minute evolutions that somehow go tripled in time.

And for two I figured fuck it I'm not wasting money on this tune when it's just gonna get retuned on AEM when I return.

It got a base tune. Runs solid.

Until we changed the break in oil. And found traces of coolant in it.

Drove 50 more miles and car started getting hot, inspected the radiator and as I thought, cold on one side hot on the other. It was low on coolant.

First thing I did was check the oil and sure enough, creamy.

Filled up the radiator to kick on the fan and cool it down and what swirled up was oil.

Head gasket is solid which leaves one thing, the iron sleeves were either not installed properly or not sealed properly.

Yes, life fucking blows right now.

[EsChassisLove]

Gotta 240 do yourself a favor and ditch the PowerFC. It's a glorified AFCNeo. It's ancient dinosaur shit. It was great 10 years ago. Get the AEM V2. And I can tell you exactly who to take it to.

[gotta240]

Damn man, I'm really sorry to hear that. You were soooo close to a solid set-up.... Keep us updated on what you find(if you find out before you deploy by chance...).

If you don't mind me asking, how much did he charge you for the 3 hours work and base tune? You can even PM me if you dont want to post here.

Codyace- I'll never use SteveShadows. For one, he's had mixed reviews on here (not something I want from a tuner) and two, he often acts childish, tries to act hard, calls customers names, threatens, etc. etc. on these forums. If I'm paying for a tune, I want a professional, and he does not come off as that. I've never met the dude and he may be a great tuner, but I'll pass. In fact, I'll drive a couple hours extra if needed

[cotbu]

Originally Posted by EsChassisLove

No tune. For one Koji pissed me off by taking 3 hours to install fuel injectors, hook up my external wastegates vacuum lines correctly and straighten out my idle. All 3 of those were 15 minute evolutions that somehow go tripled in time.

And for two I figured fuck it I'm not wasting money on this tune when it's just gonna get retuned on AEM when I return.

It got a base tune. Runs solid.

Until we changed the break in oil. And found traces of coolant in it.

Drove 50 more miles and car started getting hot, inspected the radiator and as I thought, cold on one side hot on the other. It was low on coolant.

First thing I did was check the oil and sure enough, creamy.

Filled up the radiator to kick on the fan and cool it down and what swirled up was oil.

Head gasket is solid which leaves one thing, the iron sleeves were either not installed properly or not sealed properly.

Yes, life fucking blows right now.

That sucks, worst than you posting a graph that shows the GT2871r making less P&T than the disco potato at more boost!

This

and this

Just love what you build I guess, but try to get what you paid for!

[EsChassisLove]

You make more TQ with the 2871 by 1 lol And it's coming on sooner.

That just doesn't seem right. Check for leaks. They can sneak by and rob a lot of power.

This situation is whatever to me at this point. Machine shop should be owning up to their mistake and fixing it for free.

I'm going 1JZ with simple bolt ons and an AEM V2. Watch me make more with a stock block and head than I could with a fully built SR lol

[inopsey]

Originally Posted by EsChassisLove

Gotta 240 do yourself a favor and ditch the PowerFC. It's a glorified AFCNeo. It's ancient dinosaur shit. It was great 10 years ago. Get the AEM V2. And I can tell you exactly who to take it to.

why do we need the latest ecu technology to run a engine that is 15 year old technology at best? doesent make sense. the pfc is very powerful yet simple, allowing for easy tuning that is effective, reliable and does more than enough to get the job done right. sure a fancy ecu with antilag, launch control, 6D fuel maps etc is nice but not really necessary for an engine that becomes too laggy to be fun when making over 500whp.

comparing the pfc to a afc illustrates that you have no clue what your talking about in ecus.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by EsChassisLove

This situation is whatever to me at this point. Machine shop should be owning up to their mistake and fixing it for free.

I'm going 1JZ with simple bolt ons and an AEM V2. Watch me make more with a stock block and head than I could with a fully built SR lol

Stinks about the sleeves maybe not being done right...that fear alone would keep me from using almost all local options to me...it jsut seems that so many can not do them right. With that said, I'll never ever push a 2.0 car to the point of needing sleeves...there is just a certain point where it's 'still a 2.0'...and going with an inline six works so much easier (or v8)

[codyace]

Originally Posted by inopsey

why do we need the latest ecu technology to run a engine that is 15 year old technology at best? doesent make sense. the pfc is very powerful yet simple, allowing for easy tuning that is effective, reliable and does more than enough to get the job done right. sure a fancy ecu with antilag, launch control, 6D fuel maps etc is nice but not really necessary for an engine that becomes too laggy to be fun when making over 500whp.

Agreed. It may not be ideal, but for the cost it's not a terrible option. Then again I'm not sure why anyone really needs a tuneable setup for less than 450whp either...But I know I'm on the minority there.

[HIGHFIVEBETA]

Ugh my car feels sluggish as fuck. It's slow. I was happy when I just got it tuned .. Changed plugs gapped correctly, oil looks fine. WHAT COULD IT BE!?!???

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by HIGHFIVEBETA

Ugh my car feels sluggish as fuck. It's slow. I was happy when I just got it tuned .. Changed plugs gapped correctly, oil looks fine. WHAT COULD IT BE!?!???

CAS bolts are loose and it wiggled itself retarded? Rings are bad and you're losing compression? It's not boosting as high as it should?

Those would be my initial guesses.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by HIGHFIVEBETA

Ugh my car feels sluggish as fuck. It's slow. I was happy when I just got it tuned .. Changed plugs gapped correctly, oil looks fine. WHAT COULD IT BE!?!???

Maybe you're getting used to the power...

[EsChassisLove]

Originally Posted by inopsey

why do we need the latest ecu technology to run a engine that is 15 year old technology at best? doesent make sense. the pfc is very powerful yet simple, allowing for easy tuning that is effective, reliable and does more than enough to get the job done right. sure a fancy ecu with antilag, launch control, 6D fuel maps etc is nice but not really necessary for an engine that becomes too laggy to be fun when making over 500whp.

comparing the pfc to a afc illustrates that you have no clue what your talking about in ecus.

Not even gonna argue this. I forget 95% of Zilvia lives by "if it works it's just fine" if you wanna live in the past and let your 15 year old engine run on 15 yr old technology then that's all you.

Originally Posted by codyace

Agreed. It may not be ideal, but for the cost it's not a terrible option. Then again I'm not sure why anyone really needs a tuneable setup for less than 450whp either...But I know I'm on the minority there.

I bought my PFC for $1250 new. I could get a AEM V2 for 1399. $150 more and I get an ECU that has a laundry list of capabilities. More capabilities means more power, more reliably. But you can get a PFC for $600 used all day on here.


So the builder didn't tell me he uses Toyota coolant that's red, so of course when I'm pouring in green coolant at 2am it becomes brown and looks like oil. Derp.

Machine shop and darton said Apexi HGs are known to fail on sleeved SRs. So let's hope all I need is a Cosworth.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by EsChassisLove

I bought my PFC for $1250 new. I could get a AEM V2 for 1399. $150 more and I get an ECU that has a laundry list of capabilities. More capabilities means more power, more reliably. But you can get a PFC for $600 used all day on here.

More capability = more chances to screw something up too. I view some EMS's for a 'street car' to be much like smart phones. People swear their (insert fancy Iphone or Android here) are just better because they do more stuff, when 90% of the owners dont' even use 90% of their ability...much like the EMS's.

Without a doubt the newer stuff offers more flexibility..and anyone that has messed around with old stuff compared to new will never go back to the old stuff...but 'more bells and whistles' doesn't equate to whats best. Just because you can run a AEM, doesn't mean the end result is guaranteeing to be better than an Enthalpy or JWT Rom tune. I mean, how many standalone cars out there make less power than some of the good rom cars? Tons. That's not to say that they can't make better power, but unless the tuner is truely capable...well...it's like eating steak with a spoon. I think if anything, a standalone allows the tuner to mask issues with a car at times too...whereas with a rom based setup, usually a 'poor running setup' often has tons of small issues.

Originally Posted by EsChassisLove

So the builder didn't tell me he uses Toyota coolant that's red, so of course when I'm pouring in green coolant at 2am it becomes brown and looks like oil. Derp.

We had a driver do this once when he was knew. Swore the engine was toast when he was checking coolant at a rest area. Didn't realize it used ELC/Red coolant in his truck haha. Not really his fault, as when you're so used to green coolant it's hard to think beyond it.

Originally Posted by EsChassisLove

Machine shop and darton said Apexi HGs are known to fail on sleeved SRs. So let's hope all I need is a Cosworth.

Fingers crossed for ya!

[Seraphim38]

cotbu - that second dyno graph quoted is mine. I don't really understand your point, by anyway...

My car went decent on the dyno. After that initial quick custom mapping session, about 10 more hours of custom tuning has been invested into my Power FC map and it has progressed into a pretty impressive beast. Also, problems were discovered with the boost controller and all the vacuum lines have been replaced. The laggy throttle response reported in my initial thread post dyno was attributable to the tune, and the subsequent custom mapping has pretty much cured that. There's a couple more hours of work needed for it to be really dead on everywhere, but it's really close as it sits. Driving the car now is a pleasure. It is smooth and more responsive.

I am absolutely impressed by the Power FC and wish I had bought it sooner. Granted, I had to spend a bit of time learning about parameters that weren't explicitly explained, but now that I am fully familiar with both every window of the PFC controller and all of the variables in FC-Edit, I am convinced that the money I invested in a brand new complete D-jetro system and custom tuning was well worth it ($2 grand plus).

That dyno is 3+ hours away so I may not be getting a follow up dyno # soon to compare to that baseline.

[LuckyX2]

10+ hours of tuning? I got 300ftlbs out of an s15 turbo tuned myself in only 2 hours...

Is 10 hours average for a tuner? Seems high to me but I haven't ever had anyone tune for me so idk.

[cotbu]

cotbu - that second dyno graph quoted is mine. I don't really understand your point, by anyway...

My car went decent on the dyno. After that initial quick custom mapping session, about 10 more hours of custom tuning has been invested into my Power FC map and it has progressed into a pretty impressive beast. Also, problems were discovered with the boost controller and all the vacuum lines have been replaced. The laggy throttle response reported in my initial thread post dyno was attributable to the tune, and the subsequent custom mapping has pretty much cured that. There's a couple more hours of work needed for it to be really dead on everywhere, but it's really close as it sits. Driving the car now is a pleasure. It is smooth and more responsive.

I am absolutely impressed by the Power FC and wish I had bought it sooner. Granted, I had to spend a bit of time learning about parameters that weren't explicitly explained, but now that I am fully familiar with both every window of the PFC controller and all of the variables in FC-Edit, I am convinced that the money I invested in a brand new complete D-jetro system and custom tuning was well worth it ($2 grand plus).

That dyno is 3+ hours away so I may not be getting a follow up dyno # soon to compare to that baseline.

I thought it was pretty clear! And the love what you built comment fits as well.
For $2 grand plus, your flux capacitor better work when you get off the dyno!

[Seraphim38]

no, 10 hours of custom tuning is absolutely not normal, however my standards for mapping refinement far exceed the average standalone customer I think. Normally this level of tuning is probably cost-prohibitive for a normal consumer, as it can be time consuming and the farther into refining a map, the less benefit that will be seen.

Tuners work out 80% to 100% throttle to be in the ballpark, but they don't typically spend a lot of time working through low load, low to mid rpm map positions. These parts of the map tend to be where a daily driven car spends the majority of its time and therefore they are worth getting right.

Secondly, my experience is that getting these areas of the map to be within a tight tolerance to desired AFR ratios have a significant real world impact on the driveability and responsiveness of the car. My present car mapping exercise has been proof of that to me.

I don't expect widespread acceptance of this approach, and I am not concerned with gathering support on a grand scale either. If someone is local and wants to experience the difference, I could load the map that the custom tuner did straight off the dyno, and then load the one that has all the extra time into it so that someone could experience the difference. It wouldn't be easy to prove viable over an internet forum, except if I was going to leverage comparitive dyno results and standalone software screenshots. Since I am not trying to sell this service, it's not worth my time to do it. However, if someone wants help and wants to pick my brain I talk about what worked for me and what didn't.

[Csomme]

Originally Posted by Seraphim38

no, 10 hours of custom tuning is absolutely not normal, however my standards for mapping refinement far exceed the average standalone customer I think. Normally this level of tuning is probably cost-prohibitive for a normal consumer, as it can be time consuming and the farther into refining a map, the less benefit that will be seen.

Tuners work out 80% to 100% throttle to be in the ballpark, but they don't typically spend a lot of time working through low load, low to mid rpm map positions. These parts of the map tend to be where a daily driven car spends the majority of its time and therefore they are worth getting right.

Secondly, my experience is that getting these areas of the map to be within a tight tolerance to desired AFR ratios have a significant real world impact on the driveability and responsiveness of the car. My present car mapping exercise has been proof of that to me.

I don't expect widespread acceptance of this approach, and I am not concerned with gathering support on a grand scale either. If someone is local and wants to experience the difference, I could load the map that the custom tuner did straight off the dyno, and then load the one that has all the extra time into it so that someone could experience the difference. It wouldn't be easy to prove viable over an internet forum, except if I was going to leverage comparitive dyno results and standalone software screenshots. Since I am not trying to sell this service, it's not worth my time to do it. However, if someone wants help and wants to pick my brain I talk about what worked for me and what didn't.

I really like your explanation, not too long and right on point and easy to understand with no bullshit to try and read through. We definitely need more of this attitude on Zilvia.

[LuckyX2]

Does the PFC have closed loop 02 fuel control? If so, you could have just thrown that on and let the ECU get that last 10% of perfection out of the fueling instead of paying for hours more tuning.

And even if he went through cell by cell on a loaded dyno, I can't see it taking 10 hours...

Glad it came out well though; I guess that's all that really matters so long as you can spare the expense.

Do you have a dyno of your final tune for curiosity's sake?

[Seraphim38]

My understanding, which definitely could be wrong, is that the "Base Map" as accessible through the software interface but not through the PFC Controller, sets the base injector spray milliseconds and then the ECU uses O2 sensor feedback to attain the AFR targets set in the "Inj Map". Initially I used the PFC Controller to make all the adjustments in the "Inj Map" and while this does make effective changes, the right way is to get the "Base Map" configured properly and then let the ECU do its thing. Now that the Base Map is largely tuned, the car can run at desired AFRs nearly everywhere. How much the ECU dynamically corrects via the O2 feedback I have no idea, and it's possible that it doesn't do much of any correcting.

If an ECU system truly could "self-tune" by sensing O2 readings and make its own adjustments, then it wouldn't need to be manually tuned by a tuner at all. That technology exists in advanced racing motorcycles (Dynojet Powercommander V or Bazzazz fuel injection mapping systems) but they don't exist practically for a 240sx, or if they do they are not easily accessible to the public. I have done mapping like this on many race motorcycles (Power commander 3 or prior systems) since I come from the road racing world, so I don't come to the Power FC with no experience mapping fuel injected systems. I have previously built with my own hands and tuned a 231 rwhp, 360 pound Suzuki GSXR1000 that ran on pump gas and was daily driven (yes that was a 1.0 liter Suzuki motor at only 10psi of boost). The load parameters, weight and hp ranges of 240sx are different from the bikes I know well but the principles are the same.

Some of the 10 hours of mapping has been consumed by troubleshooting, me learning the interface and determining appropriate thresholds for changes. As I get more used to the interface I can make changes, log the AFR and other data, then go back and make necessary Base Map and Ignition Map changes. Then I measure the results, and make more changes to optimize response and performance.

Again, my only guess is that I am fine tuning far more than most standalone owners out there. My guess is that most Power FC owners don't know half of what their standalone can do, and they don't spend the money to have a custom tuner really exploit the technology. That's not even mentioning the enhanced AEM EMS capabilities, which are probably even more under-utilized.

The tune isn't completely finalized but it's close. So no, I don't have a dyno of the final tune.

[HIGHFIVEBETA]

Originally Posted by Seraphim38

My guess is that most Power FC owners don't know half of what their standalone can do, and they don't spend the money to have a custom tuner really exploit the technology.

One word... Dataloggit. No?

[Seraphim38]

Originally Posted by HIGHFIVEBETA

One word... Dataloggit. No?

Yes, Dataloggit and FC-Edit software. The Power FC controller software my mechanic has had intermittent connectivity with, so I honestly didn't even bother trying to hook it up.

[codyace]

There is zero doubt that a 'custom' tune can make for a far better experience (in fact I'd say 85% of most tuned cars drive like shit outside of WOT), but 10 hours on a dyno is a long day to say the least. I'm totally interested in the part throttle low load experience

[EsChassisLove]

Originally Posted by codyace

More capability = more chances to screw something up too. I view some EMS's for a 'street car' to be much like smart phones. People swear their (insert fancy Iphone or Android here) are just better because they do more stuff, when 90% of the owners dont' even use 90% of their ability...much like the EMS's.

Without a doubt the newer stuff offers more flexibility..and anyone that has messed around with old stuff compared to new will never go back to the old stuff...but 'more bells and whistles' doesn't equate to whats best. Just because you can run a AEM, doesn't mean the end result is guaranteeing to be better than an Enthalpy or JWT Rom tune. I mean, how many standalone cars out there make less power than some of the good rom cars? Tons. That's not to say that they can't make better power, but unless the tuner is truely capable...well...it's like eating steak with a spoon. I think if anything, a standalone allows the tuner to mask issues with a car at times too...whereas with a rom based setup, usually a 'poor running setup' often has tons of small issues.

I can see where you're coming from. It's alot more than what most people need. I'm not the one doing the tuning though.So i won't have to worry about messing anything up. A guy named Mitch (cant remember his last name for the life of me, only met him once) will be doing it. He tunes for Rhys Millen Racing and multiple other podium standing time attack cars. He's fucking brilliant. What took that dude above us 10+hrs would have taken him half the time using the AEM with a fuel map more than twice the size of Apexis. lol.

I'm just trying to pull every bit of HP i can out of this thing. And I can't do that with the Apexi.

EDIT-Mitch Pederson is his name.,

Originally Posted by codyace

There is zero doubt that a 'custom' tune can make for a far better experience (in fact I'd say 85% of most tuned cars drive like shit outside of WOT), but 10 hours on a dyno is a long day to say the least. I'm totally interested in the part throttle low load experience

I always specified to tuners that it's a daily and to get from idle to redline perfect. I can't stand having a funky map outside of WOT.

[EsChassisLove]

Originally Posted by Seraphim38

That's not even mentioning the enhanced AEM EMS capabilities, which are probably even more under-utilized. .

This.

I spent an hour and a half talking to the guy who's going to tune my AEM. And holy shit. He was telling me things that I never would of even dreamed of. Just ridiculous things he can do with it. An after we were done talking he said he only scratched the surface of explaining the capabilities this ECU has.

[inopsey]

Originally Posted by EsChassisLove

I can see where you're coming from. It's alot more than what most people need. I'm not the one doing the tuning though.So i won't have to worry about messing anything up. A guy named Mitch (cant remember his last name for the life of me, only met him once) will be doing it. He tunes for Rhys Millen Racing and multiple other podium standing time attack cars. He's fucking brilliant. What took that dude above us 10+hrs would have taken him half the time using the AEM with a fuel map more than twice the size of Apexis. lol.

I'm just trying to pull every bit of HP i can out of this thing. And I can't do that with the Apexi.

EDIT-Mitch Pederson is his name.,




I always specified to tuners that it's a daily and to get from idle to redline perfect. I can't stand having a funky map outside of WOT.

i like how you say that how dont know how to tune so theres no need to worry about messing up the system with a complicated ecu like aem; but at the same time you are so confident that the aem will net more power than a pfc.

[inopsey]

Originally Posted by Seraphim38

If an ECU system truly could "self-tune" by sensing O2 readings and make its own adjustments, then it wouldn't need to be manually tuned by a tuner at all. That technology exists in advanced racing motorcycles (Dynojet Powercommander V or Bazzazz fuel injection mapping systems) but they don't exist practically for a 240sx, or if they do they are not easily accessible to the public. I have done mapping like this on many race motorcycles (Power commander 3 or prior systems) since I come from the road racing world, so I don't come to the Power FC with no experience mapping fuel injected systems. I have previously built with my own hands and tuned a 231 rwhp, 360 pound Suzuki GSXR1000 that ran on pump gas and was daily driven (yes that was a 1.0 liter Suzuki motor at only 10psi of boost). The load parameters, weight and hp ranges of 240sx are different from the bikes I know well but the principles are the same.
.

the link ecu has a auto tune function that will match the afr with desired afr while writing a timng map. they have a plug type for the sr20 engines


btw please give more detail on the light load tuning/afr you found worked best. what kind of timing were you able to use on pump to get max power.

[Seraphim38]

on pump gas I am running 16 degrees for heavy load/full boost at mid to high rpm ranges.

The tuner had set it to be 40 degrees off throttle in the midrange and by setting the controller to show ignition timing and the output of the knock sensor, I found that the max I could run on 92 pump gas without pinging was between 28 and 30 degrees at low load positions.

I am using a Zietronics wideband with the dataloggit setup, and have confirmed that it's output corresponds with the AFR readings on the dyno.

My Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors never see more than 50% duty, so it's possible that a slightly smaller injector would allow more precision in control (since you have to use an injector scaling with the Power FC that diminishes in effectiveness for larger injectors above 800cc). The scaling is working fine for my setup though.

The light load setup tuning involves logging the AFRs at the 2nd to 14th rows of the map, which essentially are off-boost and should be near 14.7:1. If these points run too lean it results in too much engine deceleration and abrupt throttle response not to mention that it isn't good for the motor. If these points are too rich, which was more the case than not, the engine has to clear the excess fuel before it can spin up. After tuning the low load pionts the engine spools up much faster, thereby feeling less laggy.

I was surprised when I first starting tuning that a slight, quick increase in throttle position caused the engine to go lean because the standalone can't respond quick enough to get fuel in. The map points that the ECU sees are fine when tested as not part of a sudden increase in throttle position. I expected less latency in the system.

Otherwise, if anyone wants me to post screenshots or to help guide them individually through what I have done, I am happy to do so.