This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread.

[Slidin' Sam]

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

You should take some good pictures of them. Those pictures are tiny as crap on their website.

I didn't have a camera available during the 12hrs that they were in my possession. They are now in a container that is on it's way to the Yokohama dock and then off to Cali! I will take pictures once they arrive in the states and everything is sorted. Ahhh the suspense! lol

Originally Posted by Pandapants

what if you changed your knuckle's ackerman, but left the pitman arm length the same/ or even increased it? how would that affect steering response and/or rear traction?

First, ridiculous ackerman adjustment is not necessary and it can have it's drawbacks.

Second, are you talking about not shortening the knuckle or possibly extending it's length right?

[anton1o]

Originally Posted by mikerbike

Link to HeyMan! knuckles? I didn't know they existed.

wow.. They are 1 of the best in the game.. Daigo Satio runs them in his JZX.

HEY MAN PRODUCTS

[PoorMans180SX]

I don't see anything special about those knuckles to be honest. That's cool that you're trying them out though.

Oh and everyone can stop getting a boner over the fact that saito runs them, JZX knuckles are the simplest things in the world because the steering arm comes off.

There are only so many ways to skin a cat (or modify a knuckle).

[95KA-Turbo]

So I was thinking, and in my morning stooper I came up with the question: Is there anyway to modify the rear suspension so there is not a significant change in camber under compression?

Off the bat I think a much higher spring rate would obviously make the rear suspension compress less, but I wasn't sure if there was anything going on with the rear geometry that could be tweaked.

[conrad_s13.5]

^ that'd be interesting to find out.
just first initial thoughts,... id think that'd go into the mounting point of the coils to the shocktower. pushing it out to a more parallel stance, so when they did compress, it would be more of a straight up and down instead of the slight angle.

dnt know if the trouble would be worth it.....lol

[SicBastard]

Google Translate, lol... $25,000 yen is only $301 US. Not bad. Are they just painted a silver color or are they actually aluminum? That would be sweet.

HEY MAN!!

S13・S14・S15、ｼﾙﾋﾞｱ・180SX用

S13 · S14 · S15, 180SX Shiruhi for Asia &

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S anti-knuckle dollars off valve

価格

Price

中古下取り \25,000(税込)

Trade-owned \ 25,000 (tax included)

開発ｺﾝｾﾌﾟﾄ

Development Konsefu default゚

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System in Asia & Shiruhi, while preventing reverse indirect,゚Affu turning angle, a slight feeling of quick, review Akkamananku dollars, s emphasis on default controls in the lift.

3UP三上氏と製作。

Mr. Mikami 3UP production.
効果

Effect

従来の加工ﾅｯｸﾙと違い、上級者はもちろん、初・中級者でも低中速ｻｰｷｯﾄ、高速ｻｰｷｯﾄとｺｰｽを 問わず違和感なく使用出来る様、ﾉｰﾏﾙのﾊﾝﾄﾞﾘﾝｸﾞやﾌｨｰﾘﾝｸﾞを損なわない様な仕上がりになって いる。

Unlike conventional processing knuckle, as well as advanced, low-medium speed circuit at the first intermediate, different courses can be used seamlessly with any high-speed circuit, such as to impair the finish lever on normal link Ya Firinku s The.

[Z33dori]

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

So I was thinking, and in my morning stooper I came up with the question: Is there anyway to modify the rear suspension so there is not a significant change in camber under compression?

Off the bat I think a much higher spring rate would obviously make the rear suspension compress less, but I wasn't sure if there was anything going on with the rear geometry that could be tweaked.

move the rear location of the RUCA inwards so you can run a longer ruca.

Might have this backwards, but the more equal the 2 control ams are the less camber will gain as the car rolls.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

So I was thinking, and in my morning stooper I came up with the question: Is there anyway to modify the rear suspension so there is not a significant change in camber under compression?

Off the bat I think a much higher spring rate would obviously make the rear suspension compress less, but I wasn't sure if there was anything going on with the rear geometry that could be tweaked.

Why would you want this? Negative camber gain is one of the advantages of multi-link suspension.

Might as well convert to a custom double wishbone if you're going to start splitting hairs.

Or a solid axle. :ghey:

Originally Posted by conrad_s13.5

id think that'd go into the mounting point of the coils to the shocktower. pushing it out to a more parallel stance, so when they did compress, it would be more of a straight up and down instead of the slight angle.

Shock position doesn't have much to do with the way the suspension compresses in the rear.

[maverickmotorsports]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Why would you want this? Negative camber gain is one of the advantages of multi-link suspension.

Might as well convert to a custom double wishbone if you're going to start splitting hairs.

Or a solid axle. :ghey:



Shock position doesn't have much to do with the way the suspension compresses in the rear.

Camber gain needs to be tuned with respect roll in order to be a benefit.

Having the car roll 5º and the camber gain 7º(fake numbers) you'd have negative camber on the loaded wheel. It's not a cut and dry answer of "camber gain is good". It, like everything else with suspension, needs to be tuned.

Someone mentioned shorter RLCA's. This will reduce camber gain but if you have a car with a lot of travel it could also do other undesirable effects to the suspension. But, for 95% of coilover'd cars it won't matter because the susp doesn't move far enough to really exploit the downside of shortening an LCA.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by george

Camber gain needs to be tuned with respect roll in order to be a benefit.

Having the car roll 5º and the camber gain 7º(fake numbers) you'd have negative camber on the loaded wheel. It's not a cut and dry answer of "camber gain is good". It, like everything else with suspension, needs to be tuned.

Someone mentioned shorter RLCA's. This will reduce camber gain but if you have a car with a lot of travel it could also do other undesirable effects to the suspension. But, for 95% of coilover'd cars it won't matter because the susp doesn't move far enough to really exploit the downside of shortening an LCA.

I know this. But our cars with coilovers roll very little, and the camber gain is actually beneficial. You want the loaded tire to have negative camber so the contact patch remains flat on the ground.

Now if your car is dumped on the ground (tucking to rim on 18's) and without subframe risers, you might have a problem because the control arms are in a very "steep" part of the camber gain curve. The only way to fix this without modifying a whole bunch of things is to raise your car or get drop knuckles. Or crank your subframe way up in the chassis.

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by az_240

Unfortunately I haven't done anything with them yet. The holidays gave my wallet a beating and I'm still looking for some oem/nismo RLCA bushings (the ones I have are toast and they are hard to find) and a good power steering rack (sold the HICAS)

I will post up pics and info on the build once it's rolling again...

I did email driftworks about the e-brake lines and they said R33's should work by re-routing but we'll see.

how come you sold your Hicas steering rack?

[maverickmotorsports]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

I know this. But our cars with coilovers roll very little, and the camber gain is actually beneficial. You want the loaded tire to have negative camber so the contact patch remains flat on the ground.

Now if your car is dumped on the ground (tucking to rim on 18's) and without subframe risers, you might have a problem because the control arms are in a very "steep" part of the camber gain curve. The only way to fix this without modifying a whole bunch of things is to raise your car or get drop knuckles. Or crank your subframe way up in the chassis.

We're both saying the same thing really.

But with shortened RLCA's you'll get even less camber gain. Since the car doesn't roll much to begin with it's not a HUGE downside. That's why I mentioned tuning. If someone was to modify their RLCA's for less camber gain their should do it empirically and evaluate the results based upon different RLCA lengths and other alignment settings. A good way to start would be to measure temperature gradients across the tire or tire wear(for a drift car).

People need to understand that you can't just "cut 1/2" off of the RLCA" and it will magically make the car a grip machine.

Ultimately, what I'm saying is that 240's have too much camber gain when significantly lowered. Even with stiff coilovers there is enough movement there to really gain a lot of negative camber. A quick reference would be watching one of those Option videos where they have a camera focused on the rear wheel. It's pretty obvious that the wheel toes out and gains camber(pretty bad for a drift car) on the cars they test.

[Slidin' Sam]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

I don't see anything special about those knuckles to be honest. That's cool that you're trying them out though.

The special thing about these knuckles, is that they have been truly tested. Shinji, Robbie, and Daigo tested for a very long time developing these knuckles. They tried all kinds of different designs. They documented everything they did, made changes, then tested again.

Shinji put it to me like this: "many company make knuckle, then test for one type of track, and one type of tire, but we tested on both big track and small track, good grip tire and shit tire, etc".

You won't notice anything drastically different with these knuckles by looking at the design as it's pretty simple and standard, but the difference comes in the fine tuning that was performed in the development of these knuckles. I'm not trying to say that HeyMan! is the only company to really develop knuckles or anything, but they were definitely one of the first to start modifying knuckles.

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Oh and everyone can stop getting a boner over the fact that saito runs them, JZX knuckles are the simplest things in the world because the steering arm comes off.

This is true. Daigo didn't win D1 because of these knuckles...he is simply a bad ass.

Yes, JZX knuckles are super simple. One piece of straight, flat metal w/ 2 bolt holes! lol

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

There are only so many ways to skin a cat (or modify a knuckle).

Word, but not all of them are good!


Oh, and to the person who asked if they were aluminum or painted, they are painted.

[95KA-Turbo]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Why would you want this? Negative camber gain is one of the advantages of multi-link suspension.

Might as well convert to a custom double wishbone if you're going to start splitting hairs.

Or a solid axle. :ghey:



Shock position doesn't have much to do with the way the suspension compresses in the rear.

Specifically to be able to set my camber to -1.5 and have it stay close to -1.5 when I'm drifting. A lot of the FD guys run positive camber so the camber will be where they want it under load.

I ideally want function and form. In order to fit my wheels out back with -1.5 camber I am going to have to make some significant changes to my fenders already and I don't want to make these drastic changes and have only half of my tires being worn still. Currently, I guess I have around -2.5 and am wearing just about half of the tire when I drift.

Looking at my car from the rear when its sitting still the camber looks normal, it looks like I have very little. I saw this picture and realized I'm gaining a significant amount of neg camber under load:

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by george

We're both saying the same thing really.

But with shortened RLCA's you'll get even less camber gain...

Yeah, and I answered it in the above posts...

Originally Posted by Slidin' Sam

The special thing about these knuckles, is that they have been truly tested. Shinji, Robbie, and Daigo tested for a very long time developing these knuckles. They tried all kinds of different designs. They documented everything they did, made changes, then tested again.

Forgive me, but it sounds like typical Japanese tuning philosphy. They're probably good, but they (and all the testing) could be replicated over here really easily. You just need a good welder, track time, and an alignment machine. Not to downplay it, I just hope you don't expect them to be worlds better.

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

Specifically to be able to set my camber to -1.5 and have it stay close to -1.5 when I'm drifting. A lot of the FD guys run positive camber so the camber will be where they want it under load.

Shows how ghey FD is. Anyway, I can understand the function and form thing, but really the only way you're going to get that is to really modify your subframe (which might not even work with clearance issues), get drop knuckles, or slam your subframe way up in your chassis like Nigel from Engineered to Slide | Drift-life in detail did.

Or you could raise your car or run a different wheel, but that kind of defeats the purpose eh? haha.

It's all a compromise.

[maverickmotorsports]

95KA-Turbo, We shortened the LCA's on my buddies S13 and his car wears the tires way more evenly now. And the car is WAY faster mid drift. Also, the car sits really really low to the ground.

[PoorMans180SX]

The funny thing is all you did was run less static camber.

Actually decreasing negative camber gain would mean changing pickup points on the subframe so as to change the arc of the control arm.

[maverickmotorsports]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

The funny thing is all you did was run less static camber.

Actually decreasing negative camber gain would mean changing pickup points on the subframe so as to change the arc of the control arm.

Shortening the LCA does affect static camber. But, don't forget that it also makes the arc radius of the LCA smaller, therefore it will "pull in" a lot sooner as the suspension compresses.

[PoorMans180SX]

Actually it doesn't really do much. It's the same as lengthening your RUCA. Sooooo...

Like I said.

It will help you 95KA in the fact that it will decrease your wheel base, making your wheels sink a little and meaning you won't have to go to town on your fender so much. Not sure if that's what you're looking for though.

[singlecamslam]

I made my front lca a lot shorter. Had to do this so i can run my camber plates to a max to reduce binding on the lca bearing cup. I have to redo my control arms and use a higher misalignment bearing now. I can barely get full lock on stock knuckles before it starts binding =(.
I'm gonna use the bearing SOsideways showed 2 pages back, but i still cant find the bearing cup for in in the catalog of UB machine.

[95KA-Turbo]

Shortening the LCA is a great idea I hadn't thought of. I am fine with the wheels being slightly more sunk and running less camber. I have to do fender work regardless, so it'll just mean a little less work. Not to mention the roll center mod I've already done makes the wheels poke more then they should, so maybe it'll even it out.

[maverickmotorsports]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Actually it doesn't really do much. It's the same as lengthening your RUCA. Sooooo...

It does more than you think. Look at epsteins bumpsteer charts on NRR where he makes changes to the RUCA/Traction link lengths. Just for comparisons sake, he changed the length by 1/2" and it made a huge difference in the way the susp acted. It's not a far stretch to think that changing the length of the LCA will also have noticeable effects to the suspension.

I'm speaking from experience. Having done the mod to an S13 and seeing favorable results in both tire wear and grip during drift.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by george

It does more than you think. Look at epsteins bumpsteer charts on NRR where he makes changes to the RUCA/Traction link lengths. Just for comparisons sake, he changed the length by 1/2" and it made a huge difference in the way the susp acted. It's not a far stretch to think that changing the length of the LCA will also have noticeable effects to the suspension.

I'm speaking from experience. Having done the mod to an S13 and seeing favorable results in both tire wear and grip during drift.

That's my point. Not running much camber in the rear (by shortening the LCA or lengthening the RUCA) helps rear grip. It's just a lot easier to do through the RUCA, which is much more affordable and easy to obtain that a good LCA.

And if you're not running crazy sized wheels like 95KA, it will work just fine.

[az_240]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

how come you sold your Hicas steering rack?

I was worried the driftworks knuckles + HICAS rack would be too much and make the car feel twitchy.

mmdb seemed pretty happy with the quicksteer on his driftworks knuckles w/ stock rack and I needed some extra money to help pay for them anyway so I sold the HICAS.

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by az_240

I was worried the driftworks knuckles + HICAS rack would be too much and make the car feel twitchy.

mmdb seemed pretty happy with the quicksteer on his driftworks knuckles w/ stock rack and I needed some extra money to help pay for them anyway so I sold the HICAS.

Interesting. Though I will not be buying the driftworks knuckles. I feel they are overpriced for what they are. LOL

I might add living in Socal I have a few extra options as well. Oh and I do not think the driftworks knuckles are the be all end all.

[racepar1]

I think you guys are focusing on the wrong arm to reduce rear camber gain. It's the trac arm that's SUPER short, the ruca is decently long. With that arm so short as the suspension compresses it gains massive camber and toe. I'm not saying that lengthening that ruca wouldn't be useful, but I doubt it would be as big of a difference. Shortening the LCA would accomplish the same goal, but I don't think that narrowing the rear track is anything that I would personally want to do.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by racepar1

I think you guys are focusing on the wrong arm to reduce rear camber gain. It's the trac arm that's SUPER short, the ruca is decently long. With that arm so short as the suspension compresses it gains massive camber and toe. I'm not saying that lengthening that ruca wouldn't be useful, but I doubt it would be as big of a difference. Shortening the LCA would accomplish the same goal, but I don't think that narrowing the rear track is anything that I would personally want to do.

Yessir you are right. Ideally you want to adjust all the arms to suit your ride height.

Sorry if I sound like a dick in the above posts guys, I didn't mean to. I was just assuming people (in general) knew information they probably don't, and now that I go back and read them, they sound kinda mean, , hahaha.

[conrad_s13.5]

aint nothing mean about learning people some knowledge!

[mysharonna]

I just got my Driftworks knuckles in yesterday. I will try to do a decent writeup in the coming weeks. Out of the box everything seems solid, but Ill go more in depth when I put them on.




If anyone wanted these, you should have jumped on the 10% off they had.

[GripTerror]

^looking forward to it