This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread.

[ManoNegra]

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

Get over it, because the only thing that really matters is that we always push forward with innovative quality product and that we keep our customers happy.

We all use stock calipers with fantastic pads.

Unknown Taiwan company bearings good, ok got it
sorry to question your products quality
carry on with your innovating

Originally Posted by articdragon192

I can't use this on my Z32

Hey Edgar, what's up

The rear oem ebrake set up on my last 3 240s have seized up.
rebuild kit? check
grease pins? check
swap out calipers? check
I should try fantastic pads, maybe that'll fix the problem

[DC Dan MAX USA]

This phenomenon of raising cars trickles down from D1 and formula D. So as soon as really competitive people started wanting to win more than they want style, they have embraced that. However it looks like shit which is why we need the best of both worlds courtesy of drop spindles.

Max pillow balls are the same as NMB but the factory is reputable enough that it does not kiss and tell.

Negra, were not some fly by night company promoting crap, we've been supporting this community here for years and the reason we have been around so long is people love our stuff so the brand is not unknown, even if the bearing factory is undisclosed so please cancel the attitude until you buy a set of arms or rods to see for yourself. You don't have to believe me but you should believe people who purchase our parts with their hard earned money and feel compelled to recommend it to others over more established brands. You should also believe that there is good reason Drift Tengoku puts our product up against the the best around with great reviews, and we don't even advertise in there.

[!Zar!]

Damn guys. PBM comes out with something and you all attack like vultures...

I'm sure if Dan really wanted, he could come out with some crazy top of the line stuff (not saying what is out isn't nice), but the price would be higher. Then everyone would bitch about it.

So I figure it is the best of both worlds. Better quality than some shitty ebay, but not all out and priced as if it is a part for formula 1.

[EquinoxS14]

First I've heard of NMB making bearings in Taiwan... That's a pretty big call to suggest that NMB's own factory would be selling stuff out the back door without their knowledge... It's not like NMB are some small outfit that just get small quantities of different bearings made by whoeever is cheapest that week.

[Csomme]

ManoNegra is just trying to turn this into a dick swinging contest and looking like an idiot.

Why argue with a company that the community itself has proven to be trustworthy, reliable, and quality? These are great people making great products that have been put to the test for years.

I'm gonna be the first out of many to say this, but shut the fuck up, no one cares.



BRO







Dan, thanks for all the parts you sell me man. And the free stickers. Keep doing work.

[DC Dan MAX USA]

No one said there is some business being done out the back door, but the factory intends to keep it's clients confidential.

Thanks for taking my side but I'm sure he is not an idiot, he is a reputable seller here just like me, and should be respected for that despite sarcasm and vendetta

[deuceforty]

i have bought products from both dan and juan (manonegra)

and have been very pleased with all purchases.


would just like to throw my .02 cents in that i think i am one of like .02% of people that run z32 rear setup (knuckles and everything) so i wouldnt worry too much about it

[DC Dan MAX USA]

Originally Posted by Slidin' Sam

What pads do you guy's use? (I know, off topic, DEAL WITH IT! lol)

When current projects, such as bucket seats, are completed? lol

Many of the guys around here have us order Brig pads from japan Tommy runs project mu, I have Brig.

Exactly! The seat has had much progress along with many other projects I'm really excited about.

[longfellow]

I'm interested in the drop spindles. I'll await pricing and a little more info on testing before I make my judgement on if I want them or not.

[ManoNegra]

Originally Posted by Csomme

ManoNegra is just trying to turn this into a dick swinging contest and looking like an idiot.

Why argue with a company that the community itself has proven to be trustworthy, reliable, and quality? These are great people making great products that have been put to the test for years.

I'm gonna be the first out of many to say this, but shut the fuck up, no one cares.

No I wasn't trying to make this a "dick swinging contest"
I had/have valid questions that I brought and I'm sure some people
, maybe not you,
would care to hear the answers to
instead I've been given the sales brochure

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

No one said there is some business being done out the back door, but the factory intends to keep it's clients confidential.

Thanks for taking my side but I'm sure he is not an idiot, he is a reputable seller here just like me, and should be respected for that despite sarcasm and vendetta

Dan, I apologize.
My tone and and view have soured by years of
watching companies crop out offering the exact same products but with
different stickers and colors and calling it 'innovation'.

how many budget coilovers and suspension links do we really need?

sarcasm, definitely
vendetta, no. I would have the same view if Isis, Gospeed, Fortune, DMax, Megan, etc. came on this thread advertising their products.
I don't think my words carry that much weight frankly
I just believe in questioning what is offered to me and simply not buying the marketing bs.

just my

I'm done.

Originally Posted by deuceforty

i have bought products from both dan and juan (manonegra)

and have been very pleased with all purchases.


would just like to throw my .02 cents in that i think i am one of like .02% of people that run z32 rear setup (knuckles and everything) so i wouldnt worry too much about it

Most of the friends I have with 240s have a z32 ebrake.

[Csomme]

You guys put those cars together in '01?

[95KA-Turbo]

I am glad to see PBM is testing out a front and real knuckle set up, this will only lead to more companies doing R and D to compete in this nitch market.



Here's a question for you guys...I am trying to figure out how you keep both tires flat at extreme angle. Basically I don't want my wheel to do what the left front wheel is doing in this picture:



I didn't think ackerman controlled that, I am trying to figure it out though before I do my knuckles.

[SoSideways]

I just looked up NMB's bearings on their site, and it looks like they strictly make ball bearings, and not spherical bearings?

Stephen, that's the steering inclination angle man. That's from that nasty angle on the FLCAs and the angle on the knuckle's LCA mounting points.

[DC Dan MAX USA]

Thanks for the apology, the questions are valid.
I hope the honest response is appreciated.
You can see that we develop our own parts that are certainly not budget like other brands you mentioned that sell for less than half our price.

Im sorry to go off topic. I didn't come here to sell stuff we have not even released yet, I simply replied to a request for an update and only ended up talking about other products after people crapped on my prototype spec. Believe me I'd rather stick to my paid advertisers thread to sell stuff.

You're right Zar, we try our best to make good parts at good prices.

[95KA-Turbo]

Originally Posted by SoSideways

I just looked up NMB's bearings on their site, and it looks like they strictly make ball bearings, and not spherical bearings?

Stephen, that's the steering inclination angle man. That's from that nasty angle on the FLCAs and the angle on the knuckle's LCA mounting points.

Meaning, with corrected geometry up front it shouldn't be as bad?

[SoSideways]

Meaning... you pretty much have to take it out of the top probably via camber plate, and have it all the way out. Out, as in like, towards the outside of the car, not the inside of the car.

Normally that'd be like dialing in positive camber.

But what you're trying to do here is to reduce that angle.

I don't know, you might run into wheel fitment issues and bearing binding issues if you do that though....

To fix it, ideally, you'd want a custom set of FLCAs with less angle there where the stock arms bend up, maybe even a flat arm, depending on how low your car is and how much spacing you have between the lower arms and the knuckles, and probably a custom set of knuckles, to where you can adjust that angle for your particular setup.

Pretty sure Def's upcoming baller knuckle + FLCAs package will have that put into consideration, I'm just not sure it's going to be adjustable, that's all.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Def

All you're going to hear from me is just correcting stuff without any analysis can potentially go in the WRONG direction. What is so bad about your geometry now that you're looking to change? Is this going to improve it? Is moving the arms like you're 1/2" higher really going to fix/improve the things you want?

Just saying, if I were spending the money, I'd want at least some basic analysis/results like roll center static height and bumpsteer at a minimum, and roll center migration would be nice as well.

From what I gather, Parts Shop MAX field tests their products. While probably not optimal or ideal, if the parts they make don't work, they don't make them. I don't know why everyone is ragging on them, their products are proven on the (drifting) track.

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

Here's a question for you guys...I am trying to figure out how you keep both tires flat at extreme angle. Basically I don't want my wheel to do what the left front wheel is doing in this picture:

Yes, that is steering axis inclination. However, positive camber is not going to help. The reason the tires lean over like that is because our cars run so much caster, which leans the steering axis back. You can adjust this a little bit with the lower mounts on your coils, slotting the holes to dial in negative camber. Yes negative. This changes the relationship between the wheel angle and the coilover angle, helping the wheel stay upright when turned. Obviously you can only go so far and you run into wheel clearance issues. Also, run stock caster.

Now, with a fully adjustable front suspension, there are more possibilities. Like making brackets that push the wheel out farther, but dial in lots of static negative camber. This would keep the wheel nearly flat at crazy angle, but you'd probably have to mess with some other stuff (LCA length? Tie rods obviously) to get that kind of a setup to work.

Also, the other wheel is going to lean really far in, so...

It's always a compromise.

[Def]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

From what I gather, Parts Shop MAX field tests their products. While probably not optimal or ideal, if the parts they make don't work, they don't make them. I don't know why everyone is ragging on them, their products are proven on the (drifting) track.

I'm not saying they don't test their products, but testing a product does not make up for a lack of design work on the front end.

I have no idea why S chassis guys are so willing to accept products that don't have any engineering/real design work behind them, and take "it feels better" as the "best it can get."

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not saying PSM is not doing any due dilligence in analyzing what the end result is with their upright design. They haven't posted any, but it's just a prototype, so I am not levelling judgements at them yet.

This is more a general look at the S chassis community, and what I see as a piss poor attitude towards actually modifying their car. It's too much about flash, what's "hot" at the moment in the "scene," and not much about learning how to set your car up better and analyzing products on their technical merits.

Yes, that is steering axis inclination. However, positive camber is not going to help. The reason the tires lean over like that is because our cars run so much caster, which leans the steering axis back. You can adjust this a little bit with the lower mounts on your coils, slotting the holes to dial in negative camber. Yes negative. This changes the relationship between the wheel angle and the coilover angle, helping the wheel stay upright when turned. Obviously you can only go so far and you run into wheel clearance issues. Also, run stock caster.

Now, with a fully adjustable front suspension, there are more possibilities. Like making brackets that push the wheel out farther, but dial in lots of static negative camber. This would keep the wheel nearly flat at crazy angle, but you'd probably have to mess with some other stuff (LCA length? Tie rods obviously) to get that kind of a setup to work.

Also, the other wheel is going to lean really far in, so...

It's always a compromise.

Yes, take out some caster and that should help the positive camber gain of the inside front during a drift.

[DC Dan MAX USA]

I am no suspension scientist, just an enthusiast on the same team as the rest of you that thinks hard about how to make our cars better every day. We constantly test our ideas on our cars & when we are happy with gains we make towards our goals, we then offer the parts to our customers.

Ya maybe its elementary but Tommy had a lot of great things to say about how much better his car felt at ASB X.

I am certainly not trying to completely redesign the OEM suspension trajectory but instead just trying to get back what is lost from the original geometry. Thats why we have kept all of the rear knuckle points the same as stock and have focused on moving just the hub, overall strength, pillowball joints, and accommodating dual rear calipers. We usually follow the facts that have been known for many years by experienced tuners, and printed in the Japanese tuning bibles.

More power to you Def for putting your time and knowledge into thorough analysis, I think thats awesome!

[Om1kron]

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

blah blah blah blah blah blah

DAN, all I saw was those rear knucle\upright thingamajigs, have this in mind.



I've seen you mention dual caliper setups before on ziptied, and a lot of the nerds were against it because they would have to design a real brake line system to handle the bias instead of using all of the stock rubber/hardline prop valves etc.

I am glad that you're still moving towards this and will be super excited to spend money on this when it comes to fruition!!!

[PerilousActs]

Count me in on the dual caliper setup as well!

[mmdb]

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

I am glad to see PBM is testing out a front and real knuckle set up, this will only lead to more companies doing R and D to compete in this nitch market.



Here's a question for you guys...I am trying to figure out how you keep both tires flat at extreme angle. Basically I don't want my wheel to do what the left front wheel is doing in this picture:



I didn't think ackerman controlled that, I am trying to figure it out though before I do my knuckles.

That'd be caster. minimize it to 0 and you'll minimize the camber gain and maximize flat thread on the ground throughout toe dynamics. Ackermann is a geometrical aspect but it's not related.

Edit: Saw a bunch of replies for this. Just reading the thread top down.

Originally Posted by Csomme

ManoNegra is just trying to turn this into a dick swinging contest and looking like an idiot.

Why argue with a company that the community itself has proven to be trustworthy, reliable, and quality? These are great people making great products that have been put to the test for years.

I'm gonna be the first out of many to say this, but shut the fuck up, no one cares.

BRO

Dan, thanks for all the parts you sell me man. And the free stickers. Keep doing work.

I have to stop you right there. How much parts, time, and money have you gone through to find what makes your car fast, or what you THINK makes your car fast? I'm going to assume you're still young, and maybe just getting into the 240. And speaking from experience, there's A LOT of junk out there. Some might take ManoNegra's as being condescending or patronizing, but his opinion is valid. Why is it secret to reveal what a company puts in their product? If it's quality stuff then say where it came from, otherwise why defer the question and leave other's to make assumptions about it? I'm not attacking anyone in particular, but several times I've come across products whom they claim are the "apex" of their trade, but professionals, those that race their product as a LIVING say otherwise. It's easy for companies, especially with a known name in the market, to throw their products on the street, provide rave reviews, and have it sell like wild fire. Bottom line is they're in it for money, and that's obvious. Is it worth it to you? Well that's why you need to compare other similar products, and I hope you do.

It goes without saying, that you do get what you pay for. And if you're reading this thread I assume you want more out of your car. Roll center isn't something you just throw some money at, slap on your car and call it a day. That's what shiny coilovers are for. There's a certain reason why some of us are probably going to sell our 240 (heaven forbid) and buy a car that's already designed to handle out of the box. Take time understanding what the product is offering, what benefits you'll get from it, and why you need it. It'll save you hundreds, if not, thousands in the long run.

Anyway, pbm, have you made plans to develop front roll center adjustment as well?

[DC Dan MAX USA]

Om1,
One is for the foot brake and the other one is for an independent hand brake caliper with it's own master and reservoir which does not require any special lines or perportioning it's just completely independent and does not splice the existing rear brake system like our current hydrobrake.

[GripTerror]

I doubt one would need such a large dual caliper setup, one of those is big enough 4 piston... it looks like the same as the arizona z car setup... but dual.... eh... arizona z car also provides a dual setup ALREADY with an adequate small lightweight alum caliper for hydro ebrake:

PARKING BRAKE CALIPER

[scottie]

Originally Posted by Def

This is more a general look at the S chassis community, and what I see as a piss poor attitude towards actually modifying their car. It's too much about flash, what's "hot" at the moment in the "scene," and not much about learning how to set your car up better and analyzing products on their technical merits.

Def,
You just said what has been on my mind for a long time. Most people settle. And if you speak out against the masses, you get beat down for it. I cant agree more.

[Om1kron]

Originally Posted by GripTerror

I doubt one would need such a large dual caliper setup, one of those is big enough 4 piston... it looks like the same as the arizona z car setup... but dual.... eh... arizona z car also provides a dual setup ALREADY with an adequate small lightweight alum caliper for hydro ebrake:

PARKING BRAKE CALIPER

Yes thanks for that information, the point was the PBM upright will already be made with the intention to go dual caliper for the hydro so you're not adjusting brake shoes or dumb shit with ebrake cables stretching.

[SoSideways]

Originally Posted by scottie

Def,
You just said what has been on my mind for a long time. Most people settle. And if you speak out against the masses, you get beat down for it. I cant agree more.

Most of those that speak out don't have the know-how or means to make a better product, which makes them straight hatin' without being able to back up what they said.

Def's situation is different, because he actually is designing a product that he deems is the right way to do it, and will be selling it in the near future, thus he talks the talk and he walks the walk also.

Not like some of these people that are bitching and moaning about how shitty a product is, but have no idea or how they will be able to better that very product that they are bashing.

Not saying Def is bashing, nor am I nut swinging. Just an observation from being on here for awhile.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by sickrbs14

but whats putting a z hub on do and does it work with a s14

Yes it works, but you will need a spherical bearing for the shock connection, as well as the correct lower housing to bolt up to the hub as well (as it's not like stock)

Skullworks/Def's Bearings in my z32 hubs:

Originally Posted by Slidin' Sam

Yes, a lot of people run a z32 brake set-up in the rear, but a lot of people still run stock brakes with really good pads and have no issues or need to upgrade. IIRC, Tommy and Matt are both running stock brakes???

I run stock rear brakes with Carbotech XP12's, and Altima rotors. I diodn't want to deal with the hassel of the Z32 setup and couldn't be happier with my current setup.

Originally Posted by Def

This is more a general look at the S chassis community, and what I see as a piss poor attitude towards actually modifying their car. It's too much about flash, what's "hot" at the moment in the "scene," and not much about learning how to set your car up better and analyzing products on their technical merits.

I couldn't have said this any better myself. I absolutley can not stand the growing trend of 'hot parts' owners in our crowd (like I posted in another thread, about people laughing at my 'koni' setup as their cheapass coilovers were all the rage and better as it went lower). I (much like those questioning PSM here) have tried/abused/changed so many parts that I have become very cynical when it comes to hype of parts. PSM stuff looks great, seems to work well, and has good support...which is fantastic in this day and age...but what I can't stand are those who accept 'what they read' as just that.

I think Mano's questioning of the parts source is 100 percent within reason: If someone has a quality product, why not expose where the parts are from and question their process - that is how better parts are formed.

Originally Posted by SoSideways

Most of those that speak out don't have the know-how or means to make a better product, which makes them straight hatin' without being able to back up what they said.

Well to a degree - I always enjoy/respect reading constructive criticism about products, regardless if the 'reviewer' has the ability to make the parts or not. I do understand what you are saying though too

[95KA-Turbo]

I don't have pictures as of right now, but I finally got my LCAs back off the car so I could instal my high misalignment spacers. The way I have it set up I can get 16mm more adjustment up front, 9mm of which would be achieved with a spacer, the other 7mms is from the taller misalignment spacer I am running on the top of the front spherical bearings. I am running the PSM subframe risers out back, so hopefully my roll center isn't under adjusted up front/over adjusted out back. If its over adjusted out back its nothing a little grinding can't take care of, haha.

Obviously, I still need to get some calculations going so I can see where the roll center is, but I am going to concentrate on getting my motor running and get the car put back together completely before I do that.

[DC Dan MAX USA]

Originally Posted by mmdb

pbm, have you made plans to develop front roll center adjustment as well?

Certainly, I posted the update on the last page (39) just before that bomb went off in here.