This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread.

[Z33dori]

Originally Posted by Choku_Dorian

mmdb - Most of the guys in this thread are working on their own cars in their garage, we are doing the best we can with what we got. As much as we would like to do things 100% legit it just isn't going to happen. We are trying to correct issues with our cars where very little, to no(or only very expensive) aftermarket support or even valid information is available. We are trying to correct current problems and by doing so we will almost inevitably create new problems, but guess what, then we will correct those. It is trial and error.

The MS paint comment did make me lol a lil. No it isn't CAD but it is better than nothing.

PoorMan180sx - Where can I find more info on engineered to slide's SF mod?(i tried searching this thread but did not see anything about it?)

there is no thread on it.... I wish Nigel posted on here, maybe someone can get him on here.

but it seems like his car sits higher....

[PoorMans180SX]

Nigel's Blog:

Engineered to slide

[Pandapants]

Here too.

http://zilvia.net/f/chat/326929-can-...-subframe.html

[mmdb]

Yeap I hear you guys on that. There's no problem in making your own things at home 'n trying it out, I'm all for it. I just find it terribly faltering when statements are based on assumptions rather than actual facts by either testing product out in the field or providing a well concise reason as to why it's beneficial. I mean, I could go out and tell everyone how great my driftwork knuckles are, and have a bunch of people buy 'em and ultimately hate 'em. But it won't apply to everyone. I can safely say my s14 setup is far different than 99% of the people here - what works for one person may not work for another. So having a window for misinterpretation/mistake is reasonable given we're "researching" a topic on a forum nonetheless. And yes you should have a bit of responsiblity when you post something because someone might try it and in the worst case, fail and injure/kill someone.

[Jonnie Fraz]

MMB... Good point! I have been thinking about this stuff for a bit. Roll center is going to be different for each car at a specific height. Doing knuckles or uprights without some sort of adjustment, may just compound the problem.

[longfellow]

I was worried about roll center for a while, but after the last event I can honestly say I'm happy with how my car is set up. I'm sure adjusting roll center would help. But as far as how the car feels I dont think I want to change anything other then add a decent set of tie rods.

[SoSideways]

So I basically ground the diameter on the chromoly spacer between the LCA and the knuckle down a little bit where it sits on the bearing, as well as one of the shims that goes underneath the bearing.

The are no longer binding on the bearing either way, and I can pretty much rotate the knuckle either way almost all the way... can't go left anymore because the retaining nut up top that holds the damper to the camber plate is hitting the bearing cup up there now lol

I might not need to do anything about that, as I won't even come close to that with the stock knuckle.

Which brings me to the other portion of my setup: the tie rods/tie rod ends.

At this point, I am about a quarter turn on the steering wheel away from being able to bottom out the tie rod on the rack, and there are two things keeping me from going the rest of the way.

1) The end link bracket has pretty much all been chopped off with the exception of about 2mm of it. The rod end on the tie rod ends is hitting this and stopping the entire assembly from going any further.

2) The tie rods are going way over center, and to be honest, even if I had more room between the tie rod and LCA for the tie rod to move all the way in till it hits the rack, it wouldn't do so because the tie rod is really pointed forward, and the knuckle's steering arm is right at the center, and will only go past this point if I rotated the knuckle by hand (thus the over center statement).

A shorter steering arm on the knuckle or the angle of the steering arm is a little further outward, which I'm pretty sure some of the aftermarket angle knuckles have that feature, should fix the over center issue some (moving the rack forward like what Adamn from C's Garage did is probably the best way though), and it should allow the tie rod to go all the way in and bottom out on the rack.

You can fix the over center issue a little bit by running more positive caster, but if you don't have rod ends on the inboard pivot point on the FLCAs, then you may run into problems there. You will probably also need to tub your front fender wells, since the tire will get REALLY CLOSE, if not straight up hit the stock fender wells, just because the wheel sits really far forward at that point.

So that's my update... hope everyone's having a good July 4th weekend so far!

[DC Dan MAX USA]

Originally Posted by nieko

yeah people keep getting REAL off topic... shits kind of annoying lol..

any update from PSM?

I posted updates today after some testing at ASB X.

POWERED BY MAX: Forums?????? / ??????????? Wish List / Front Knuckle
POWERED BY MAX: Forums?????? / ??????????? Wish List / Rear knuckle

[GripTerror]

FINALLY... now let me read what they say... ooh i spy spherical bushings (GOOD!)

I wana hear what DEF and MMDB have to say

The only thing I could gather from the post in the rears is that it's a 1" drop so less than driftworks eeh.. Plus I don't need or want extreme angle... not good for grip But all the other added benefits that are mentioned supposedly = win.

[Slidin' Sam]

Front knuckles look nice. So the pick-up point on the knuckle for the lca has been changed and everything else pretty much remains the same? When will these be available?

Will the rear knuckles be part of an exchange program, or are they made 100% from a jig?

[GripTerror]

Bah i was hoping for a 2" drop like driftworks... booo.. and i thought pbm was all jdm/drift crowd who slam cars.

I just saw these i dunno if this was posted in the thread no idea what it says no japano:

[!Zar!]

So are those bronze knuckles any different than the orange ones, or are they just that color to match Tommy's car?

[DC Dan MAX USA]

Originally Posted by GripTerror

FINALLY... now let me read what they say... ooh i spy spherical bushings (GOOD!)

I wana hear what DEF and MMDB have to say

The only thing I could gather from the post in the rears is that it's a 1" drop so less than driftworks eeh.. Plus I don't need or want extreme angle... not good for grip But all the other added benefits that are mentioned supposedly = win.

The steering angle has nothing to do with negatively effecting grip driving. The ackerman you dont want to change, and If you suck at driving you dont want faster steering but you could change your driving habit to reduce your inputs and you'll find that it offers you more control when your arms are not flailing around. About driftworks claims, please see below.

Originally Posted by Slidin' Sam

Front knuckles look nice. So the pick-up point on the knuckle for the lca has been changed and everything else pretty much remains the same? When will these be available?

Will the rear knuckles be part of an exchange program, or are they made 100% from a jig?

Compaired to our Super angle knuckle just the lca mount has been changed, and compaired to OEM the tie rod position has been changed as well.

The front knuckles are sold as a modification service to your OEM knuckles so you'll need to send them in to us, we're matching the Japan price of $550 for the front knuckle mods and we can start offering this service right now. You can tell us how much ackerman and roll center adjust you want but we already have this figured out if you are not a suspension scientist.

The rear knuckles are 100% new parts and the price and availability is not released.

Originally Posted by GripTerror

Bah i was hoping for a 2" drop like driftworks... booo.. and i thought pbm was all jdm/drift crowd who slam cars.

As discussed on my forum one year ago...
POWERED BY MAX: Forums?????? / ??????????? Wish List / Rear knuckle

From what I can see the drop on the driftworks is not from dropping the hub 2 inches, looks to be the same hub drop as ours but their spec on drop comes from dropping the coilover mount. We dont need to drop the coilover mount 2 inches because our coilovers go plenty low enough already. Looks as if they threw out the stock relationships between the upper and lower arms while ours maintains all of the factory spec relationships and just drops the hub, brings more strength, is 100% pillowball and has provisions for dual rear calipers.

my quote from last July...on this subject...

"I dont think the rear axle is raised up 50mm, it looks to be around 30mm no more than 35mm. Maybe the car is lowered by 50mm because some of that is from dropping the coilover/lca mount and some is moving the hub up but from my observations above you would be hard pressed to move the axle and its boot up more than 25mm before it hits our arm, and to my knowledge no ones RUCA is upswept like ours so im thinking its not possible to move the axle up said 50mm and maintain clearance with conventional axle boots and RUCA.

The relationship between the rear arms at the knuckle attachment points should probably not be moved or it will change the path the wheel dives under suspension travel."

No one has confirmed my observations, but take a look at the pictures from and tell me if you are seeing what I see.

Also take a look at these photos, can you see how much interference between axle boot and RUCA there would be if you actually had a 2" change? Driftworks arms are not even upswept like ours so the interference would be worse. Boo on misleading specs from our competition!

[GripTerror]

Well so far the only thing getting me going is the ready use of sphericals in the rear. I'll wait for mmdb and def to chime in on what you're saying as I'm no mechanical engineer. That being said the driftworks knuckles are run by a few different people and no one's had failures or what you're hypothesizing. That being said their website does say 45mm front and 50mm rear drop.

The same design (ripped off from sp-tec) is used by scorch s15 that sets the fastest s15 lap time on tsukuba. So they don't suck.

Also I want maximum shock stroke, which the driftworks seem to offer. I'm not too concerned with inner clearance as I won't have to deal with stock sheet metal anyways (cut up). That's all for now. I don't want to lower my car by shock like most people do who slam cars and then run ridiculous spring rates to compensate for lack of travel.

And I don't care about their RUCAs/etc... I'm running all SPL arms. They have a curvature for dropped cars as well.

[PoorMans180SX]

These look awesome. Perfect for someone who is looking for some good roll center adjustment and sphericals.

I'm strongly considering sending my knuckles in so I have something to hold me over until Def comes out with his knuckles.

[ManoNegra]

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

I posted updates today after some testing at ASB X.

POWERED BY MAX: Forums?????? / ??????????? Wish List / Front Knuckle
POWERED BY MAX: Forums?????? / ??????????? Wish List / Rear knuckle

Cool, that's good to see
I'm glad more and more options are coming out

Questions?
what sphericals are you using in the the rear knuckle? brand? metric? are they serviceable?
meaning can I pop the bearing out and replace it once it develops play down the line?

no Z32 e-brake option? In the works?

price?

Would you offer the the fronts without the dorifto-super-angle mod? you know for road racing guys?

what type of warranty do these come with?

just wondering

[DC Dan MAX USA]

Originally Posted by GripTerror

Well so far the only thing getting me going is the ready use of sphericals in the rear. I'll wait for mmdb and def to chime in on what you're saying as I'm no mechanical engineer. That being said the driftworks knuckles are run by a few different people and no one's had failures or what you're hypothesizing. That being said their website does say 45mm front and 50mm rear drop.

The same design (ripped off from sp-tec) is used by scorch s15 that sets the fastest s15 lap time on tsukuba. So they don't suck.

Also I want maximum shock stroke, which the driftworks seem to offer. I'm not too concerned with inner clearance as I won't have to deal with stock sheet metal anyways (cut up). That's all for now. I don't want to lower my car by shock like most people do who slam cars and then run ridiculous spring rates to compensate for lack of travel.

And I don't care about their RUCAs/etc... I'm running all SPL arms. They have a curvature for dropped cars as well.

Im sure they dont suck, in fact Im sure they are an awesome improvement, but dont ride me about being shortchanged on the drop when its just on the competitions spec sheet and not at the hub.

A grip driver wants up travel too, so if your suspension travel has so much shock travel that you will not top out with 50mm lower shock mount and at the same time have proper ride height for grip driving, you've considered whats important to you and thats what matters.

Sorry, I'll be more clear about the clearance of the boot and RUCA. I was not talking about modding the sheet metal or even the angle of the the camber arm where it is attached to the adjuster which some arms besides ours do have, but the sweep of the middle of the arm bend where it is closest to the boot (where my metal ruler is at in above pics) that clearance in our camber arm design is only seen at this angle:

seems that spl bend just comes straight off the bracket and just angled at the adjuster?

...and same with driftworks RUCA being completely flat:


Anyone can see that if there is only 25mm of clearance with my stock knuckle and upswept arm, how can you have a 50mm drop spindle and a flat arm right?

Originally Posted by ManoNegra

Cool, that's good to see
I'm glad more and more options are coming out

Questions?
what sphericals are you using in the the rear knuckle? brand? metric? are they serviceable?
meaning can I pop the bearing out and replace it once it develops play down the line?

no Z32 e-brake option? In the works?

price?

Would you offer the the fronts without the dorifto-super-angle mod? you know for road racing guys?

what type of warranty do these come with?

just wondering

Parts Shop MAX, metric bearings, teflon lined and service free
We have never had anyone order replacement bearings in the 3 years they have been for sale.
However they are certainly replaceable.
No price on the rear yet.
Yes we can just do the LCA mod on the front knuckle, and you can run those aftermarket bumpsteer tie rod ends in the stock hole for grip driving.
There is no official warranty, but I dont think you need it. No one has ever broken our modded s chassis knuckles even in a severe crash that takes out the entire front end. Still if you were not satisfied for any reason we are here every day to service our customers in this community.

[Def]

Originally Posted by GripTerror

FINALLY... now let me read what they say... ooh i spy spherical bushings (GOOD!)

I wana hear what DEF and MMDB have to say

The only thing I could gather from the post in the rears is that it's a 1" drop so less than driftworks eeh.. Plus I don't need or want extreme angle... not good for grip But all the other added benefits that are mentioned supposedly = win.

All you're going to hear from me is just correcting stuff without any analysis can potentially go in the WRONG direction. What is so bad about your geometry now that you're looking to change? Is this going to improve it? Is moving the arms like you're 1/2" higher really going to fix/improve the things you want?

Just saying, if I were spending the money, I'd want at least some basic analysis/results like roll center static height and bumpsteer at a minimum, and roll center migration would be nice as well.

[ManoNegra]

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

Parts Shop MAX, metric bearings, teflon lined and service free

what brand and quality are they?
I mean I've handled FK and Aurora bearings and the difference is night and day.

We have never had anyone order replacement bearings in the 3 years they have been for sale.
However they are certainly replaceable.
No price on the rear yet.

Are you referring to the particular type of bearings being in use in your
products for 3 years or rear arms with sphericals?

And no answer on the Z32 e-brake question?

[sickrbs14]

damnnn and here i go thinkin i know 240s and i have no clue whats goin on here haha
but whats putting a z hub on do and does it work with a s14

[DC Dan MAX USA]

Originally Posted by GripTerror

I just saw these i dunno if this was posted in the thread no idea what it says no japano:

looks like the page with the important info may be next to the one posted. $800 ??

Originally Posted by !Zar!

So are those bronze knuckles any different than the orange ones, or are they just that color to match Tommy's car?

its just rattle can to match Tommy's car.

Originally Posted by ManoNegra

what brand and quality are they?
I mean I've handled FK and Aurora bearings and the difference is night and day.
Are you referring to the particular type of bearings being in use in your
products for 3 years or rear arms with sphericals?
And no answer on the Z32 e-brake question?

We have not considered using the Z32 e-brake, only thing in the works is dual calipers.
The spherical bearing is a high quality Parts Shop MAX brand unit manufactured in Taiwan to Japanese specification. They have been used in all of our products for years to give our parts performance and value. Their precision and longevity has been proven by customers around the world.
The bearings we use in the knuckles are the same exact bearings we have used in all of our products from arms and rods to coil overs.

[ManoNegra]

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

We have not considered using the Z32 e-brake, only thing in the works is dual calipers.

That's somewhat disappointing to hear
I mean, you guys are a self-proclaimed drift company
and as such should realize the popularity of that set up with drifters

The spherical bearing is a high quality Parts Shop MAX brand unit manufactured in Taiwan to Japanese specification. They have been used in all of our products for years to give our parts performance and value. Their precision and longevity has been proven by customers around the world.
The bearings we use in the knuckles are the same exact bearings we have used in all of our products from arms and rods to coil overs.

hmm.. right

[Slidin' Sam]

Many companies manufacture their part's in Taiwan with foreign parts. EX: PSM uses their own parts, which are made in Japan, but the assembly costs are drastically cheaper in Taiwan, sooo all the components that make up their bearings are made in Japan, but they are assembled in Taiwan and then they perform a Quality Assurance test in Japan to make sure everything is up to spec.

Yes, a lot of people run a z32 brake set-up in the rear, but a lot of people still run stock brakes with really good pads and have no issues or need to upgrade. IIRC, Tommy and Matt are both running stock brakes???

[DC Dan MAX USA]

We make parts and source materials wherever it makes the most sense so that we can provide the best products at the best prices, sometimes that's USA sometimes Japan, sometimes Taiwan. Knuckles are all 3. Just like this iPhone 4 I am typing this message on which is probably had the largest world wide product release in consumer products history and on the back it says Designed by Apple in California Assembled in China. Get over it, because the only thing that really matters is that we always push forward with innovative quality product and that we keep our customers happy. Unfortunately we don't have the time to cater to every one out there.

We all use stock calipers with fantastic pads.

[articdragon192]

I can't use this on my Z32

[DC Dan MAX USA]

Maybe later when current projects are completed. Sorry bout that!

[Slidin' Sam]

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

We all use stock calipers with fantastic pads.

What pads do you guy's use? (I know, off topic, DEAL WITH IT! lol)

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

Maybe later when current projects are completed. Sorry bout that!

When current projects, such as bucket seats, are completed? lol

[SoSideways]

Well, I'm neutral to this whole PBM bearing issue, as I wanted to know what kind of bearings came on their arms and stuff too, but Taiwanese bearings might not be that bad.

Some QA1 bearings are made in Taiwan...

So maybe, just maybe, PBM gets their bearings from the same factory that makes the QA1 bearings?




And just an observation I've made over the last day or two, since I had to go and read up some threads and what not on the interwebz about people having over center issues on their S-chassis, I've noticed that, just within the last like year to 6 months, a lot of the drifters all of a sudden cared about how their cars actually handled, thus all this raising their car up to get better geometry, etc., and now, they even care about roll center, when back in even '08, if you mentioned roll center, you were a loser and you were excommunicated by the entire drift community, from the cool guys down to the nut riders.

Just sayin'.

[EquinoxS14]

Originally Posted by SoSideways

So maybe, just maybe, PBM gets their bearings from the same factory that makes the QA1 bearings?

Doubt it. QA1 has their own factory. In China, not Taiwan.

[SoSideways]

Originally Posted by EquinoxS14

Doubt it. QA1 has their own factory. In China, not Taiwan.

My mistake.

I re-read what you and McCoy posted on NRR in the huge Budget LCA thread and you did in fact say China, and McCoy posted that blurp from QA1's site, and their factory is near Shanghai.

Cool beans.