2012 Presidential Election Thread! Let's kick it off early!

[gbaby2089]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Yes - Russia now claims to have nuclear weapons that have such little radiation that "non-lethal" toxicity would last only 2-4 years. So they could nuke the shit out of someone and it would be just like before a few years latter. No more "OMFG End of the World" shit.

By Nuclear infrastructure you are thinking of their reactors and disposal sites from the 60's and 70's as well as their scrap yard of nuclear navel vessels. Russia never once stopped developing nuclear weapons despite the arms treaties. The suitcase nuke is very much a reality

As far as funding... you don't think those non-existant technology sales to Iran are at "fair market value" do you? You realize for the last 15 years Russia has had a strangle hold on Europe with the natural gas supply as well. Putin is no dumb-ass, and despite what the western media reports, most Russia by and large loves the guy.

As an old train worker once told me - "With Chernenko, we had pension at home, we had respect from world. With Yeltsin, we have neither".

Putin may not have fixed Russia's domestic problems, but he is fixing their global ones.

Interesting, Putin does seem one of the men most able to pull it off, thanks for the info, probably not a good thing for a class on US National Security to be that far off on something like that though.

As for the end of the world, is that how people though about it, as the inability to use that land for a period of time? I always looked at it as the end of the world as we know it, with a potential end of most of the infrastructure, potential loss of much of the gov't, etc.

[onehundredoctane]

Originally Posted by gbaby2089

I don't understand why people pants are in a bunch for Biden interrupting Paul Ryan.

Did not a single one of you see Mitt interrupting Obama and the moderator on a constant basis?

I think the main complaint with respect to Biden was the attitude, constant laughing, and general condescending tone with which he said everything, until it benefited him to speak with a softer tone so it seemed like he connected with the audience or viewers better. I'm not saying Romney didn't interrupt Obama, I'm not denying that, but he wasn't as rude as Biden.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by gbaby2089

Interesting, Putin does seem one of the men most able to pull it off, thanks for the info, probably not a good thing for a class on US National Security to be that far off on something like that though.

As for the end of the world, is that how people though about it, as the inability to use that land for a period of time? I always looked at it as the end of the world as we know it, with a potential end of most of the infrastructure, potential loss of much of the gov't, etc.

The long held theory of the nuclear holocaust is that if we nuke Russia, no matter what Russia will nuke us. Nobody is going to go "oh shit, well lets take one for team humanity".

With all those nuclear weapons going off every major city in the world would be leveled and obliterated killing millions, if not billions of people. With that many nuclear clouds and that much derby entering the atmosphere - think thousands of volcanos going off at once - you would have a dust cloud hanging in the skys for at least a year before it settles down, brining down all sorts of radioactive contaminates. It would also poison the rain water with radiation, sulfer and other nasty burned up chemicals from the burning cities.

So thus the nuclear winter was born. With so much dust the sun would be blocked. It would be overcast for an entire year which would drop global temperatures by 2-3 degrees, enough that winter would last an extra month and come a month sooner.

With governments already obliterated, major infrastructure gone, sickness and death everywhere - the shortened growing season would mean catastrophe for the survivors - there would be no food for the following winter.

What this means is pockets of survivors would grow smaller and smaller and more self-interested. Its no longer how do we get the corn fields running again to feed the nation - its how do the 20-30 of us scavenge enough food from the abandoned Walmart.

This would mean a total collapse of the national government structures we all know, across the globe. Even if Congress or the President survives they would have no way of enforcing law in Iowa or Alabama let alone communicating with them. New regional groups would be formed and soon become new governments.

[gbaby2089]

Originally Posted by Corbic

The long held theory of the nuclear holocaust is that if we nuke Russia, no matter what Russia will nuke us. Nobody is going to go "oh shit, well lets take one for team humanity".

With all those nuclear weapons going off every major city in the world would be leveled and obliterated killing millions, if not billions of people. With that many nuclear clouds and that much derby entering the atmosphere - think thousands of volcanos going off at once - you would have a dust cloud hanging in the skys for at least a year before it settles down, brining down all sorts of radioactive contaminates. It would also poison the rain water with radiation, sulfer and other nasty burned up chemicals from the burning cities.

So thus the nuclear winter was born. With so much dust the sun would be blocked. It would be overcast for an entire year which would drop global temperatures by 2-3 degrees, enough that winter would last an extra month and come a month sooner.

With governments already obliterated, major infrastructure gone, sickness and death everywhere - the shortened growing season would mean catastrophe for the survivors - there would be no food for the following winter.

What this means is pockets of survivors would grow smaller and smaller and more self-interested. Its no longer how do we get the corn fields running again to feed the nation - its how do the 20-30 of us scavenge enough food from the abandoned Walmart.

This would mean a total collapse of the national government structures we all know, across the globe. Even if Congress or the President survives they would have no way of enforcing law in Iowa or Alabama let alone communicating with them. New regional groups would be formed and soon become new governments.

Welp.

[D.Adams]

going to drop this here

Barack Obama vs Mitt Romney. Epic Rap Battles Of History Season 2. - YouTube

[KA24DESOneThree]

Originally Posted by Omarius Maximus

"Personal property is the effect of society; and it is as impossible for an individual to acquire personal property without the aid of society, as it is for him to make land originally.

Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all cases, that where the former do not exist the latter cannot be obtained. All accumulation, therefore, of personal property, beyond what a man’s own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part of that accumulation back again to society from whence the whole came."

-Thomas Paine

What I take from that is I am responsible to treat those around me with respect and to trade the fruits of my labor for the fruits of theirs. Charity should be a choice, not forced. I give to charity of my own free will, but I give less than I would were I not forced by the State to "donate" as well.

"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right."

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."

-Thomas Paine

1 88 U- How is a despotic government which robs its people openly any different than a government with onerous taxes and regulations? One does it with a gun where everyone can see, the other does it with a gun concealed under a coat.

You believe in a "heavily regulated market economy" with a "strong safety net." Do you believe in minimum wage controls? Rent controls? Government bureaus to tell businesses what they can and cannot sell and when they can and cannot sell? Do you believe in government health care for all? Do you believe in food stamps and government housing vouchers?

I'm trying to understand how a person can hate his fellow man so much, can revile that man's success so intensely that he believes the government should be able to imprison that man for violating no person's rights and initiating no force.

[LEG1T]

Mitt told 27 lies in 38 minutes of the last debate.

Obama needs to call him on this tonight!!!

I bet a good number of people didn't know this, Obama needs to expose him on all of these issues if he wants to win.

Source: At Last Night's Debate: Romney Told 27 Myths In 38 Minutes | ThinkProgress

[GSXRJJordan]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

What I take from that is I am responsible to treat those around me with respect and to trade the fruits of my labor for the fruits of theirs. Charity should be a choice, not forced. I give to charity of my own free will, but I give less than I would were I not forced by the State to "donate" as well.

"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right."

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."

-Thomas Paine

1 88 U- How is a despotic government which robs its people openly any different than a government with onerous taxes and regulations? One does it with a gun where everyone can see, the other does it with a gun concealed under a coat.

You believe in a "heavily regulated market economy" with a "strong safety net." Do you believe in minimum wage controls? Rent controls? Government bureaus to tell businesses what they can and cannot sell and when they can and cannot sell? Do you believe in government health care for all? Do you believe in food stamps and government housing vouchers?

I'm trying to understand how a person can hate his fellow man so much, can revile that man's success so intensely that he believes the government should be able to imprison that man for violating no person's rights and initiating no force.

Fuck I miss your posts. Lets date.

This thread has had some surprisingly good parts, and like this election, good arguments on both sides.

[1 88 U]

Obama destroyed Romney worse than Biden killed Ryan.

[LEG1T]

Originally Posted by 1 88 U

Obama destroyed Romney worse than Biden killed Ryan.

Agreeed!

And to add...Romney should have never challenged Obama on Libya.

[Phlip]

Originally Posted by LEG1T

Agreeed!

And to add...Romney should have never challenged Obama on Libya.

He also tore his own ass by setting up the "47%" comment by trying to make himself the victim.

[Omarius Maximus]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

What I take from that is I am responsible to treat those around me with respect and to trade the fruits of my labor for the fruits of theirs. Charity should be a choice, not forced. I give to charity of my own free will, but I give less than I would were I not forced by the State to "donate" as well.

"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right."

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."

-Thomas Paine

1 88 U- How is a despotic government which robs its people openly any different than a government with onerous taxes and regulations? One does it with a gun where everyone can see, the other does it with a gun concealed under a coat.

You believe in a "heavily regulated market economy" with a "strong safety net." Do you believe in minimum wage controls? Rent controls? Government bureaus to tell businesses what they can and cannot sell and when they can and cannot sell? Do you believe in government health care for all? Do you believe in food stamps and government housing vouchers?

I'm trying to understand how a person can hate his fellow man so much, can revile that man's success so intensely that he believes the government should be able to imprison that man for violating no person's rights and initiating no force.

Right. The problem with people like you is that you take the benefits of government for granted, and pretend that if government were to suddenly disappear tomorrow, life would be exactly as it is today; except with less bureaucracy.

You don't use police services? Really? You use police services every day. If there were no police, no rule of law, how the hell do you think you'd hold on to your property? If there were no negatives (jail time/police intervention/etc) to taking what's yours by force...how the fuck would you accrue wealth?

If a woman owns a multi million dollar business...then she owes the government more in taxes than the guy who's sole possessions are the clothes on his back. With no government to protect her; I would simply hold her at gunpoint and demand she handed her business over to me.

You don't use fire services? Really? Do you understand how exponentially more expensive your rent would be if your insurance company understood that there was no way of containing a fucking fire if it got out? It's fucking common sense man.

You don't use social security, medicare, or ambulance services?

The problem here is that nobody can hold you accountable for these choices. So you can say ridiculous things and get away with it.

Swear off ambulance services; but you subconsciously understand that in case of emergency, a family member can/will dial 911 and ambulance services will be there to save your ass. There is a benefit there; you just haven't cashed in yet. So you feel high and mighty for having not used it yet.

You swear off social security and medicare. You're in your mid twenties and own a 240 that costs less than my watch. Doesn't seem like you're an Ivy leaguer, or have rich parents that can act as venture capitalists. I dunno man. The chances of you accruing the 1.5 million dollars to ensure a half decent annual income in your twilight years is pretty fucking slim. But yeah, I'm sure that you're sure that you'll win the lottery, sign a record deal, or fucking invent the next Google. You won't need social security or medicare. So because of your myopic ass view, you sabotage the things you'll inevitably take advantage of. It's tragic.

Also, you're using a person's quote out of context, and then adding your own personal bullshit/spin on it after the fact. You'll notice that my post only had that quote. That's because it was apropos and within the context of what we were talking about. Thomas Paine is rolling in his grave.

[1 88 U]

This sums up the republican response to this debate.

[1 88 U]

Originally Posted by evolvednissan

Romney for president.

...Of China.

[gbaby2089]

Originally Posted by Omarius Maximus

Right. The problem with people like you is that you take the benefits of government for granted, and pretend that if government were to suddenly disappear tomorrow, life would be exactly as it is today; except with less bureaucracy.

You don't use police services? Really? You use police services every day. If there were no police, no rule of law, how the hell do you think you'd hold on to your property? If there were no negatives (jail time/police intervention/etc) to taking what's yours by force...how the fuck would you accrue wealth?

If a woman owns a multi million dollar business...then she owes the government more in taxes than the guy who's sole possessions are the clothes on his back. With no government to protect her; I would simply hold her at gunpoint and demand she handed her business over to me.

You don't use fire services? Really? Do you understand how exponentially more expensive your rent would be if your insurance company understood that there was no way of containing a fucking fire if it got out? It's fucking common sense man.

You don't use social security, medicare, or ambulance services?

The problem here is that nobody can hold you accountable for these choices. So you can say ridiculous things and get away with it.

Swear off ambulance services; but you subconsciously understand that in case of emergency, a family member can/will dial 911 and ambulance services will be there to save your ass. There is a benefit there; you just haven't cashed in yet. So you feel high and mighty for having not used it yet.

You swear off social security and medicare. You're in your mid twenties and own a 240 that costs less than my watch. Doesn't seem like you're an Ivy leaguer, or have rich parents that can act as venture capitalists. I dunno man. The chances of you accruing the 1.5 million dollars to ensure a half decent annual income in your twilight years is pretty fucking slim. But yeah, I'm sure that you're sure that you'll win the lottery, sign a record deal, or fucking invent the next Google. You won't need social security or medicare. So because of your myopic ass view, you sabotage the things you'll inevitably take advantage of. It's tragic.

Also, you're using a person's quote out of context, and then adding your own personal bullshit/spin on it after the fact. You'll notice that my post only had that quote. That's because it was apropos and within the context of what we were talking about. Thomas Paine is rolling in his grave.

I only watched the first 2/3 of the debate (Sons of Anarchy was on, and I assumed it would all be more silly questions over things POTUS has little control of), now that I hear about the Libya discussion, I wish I had kept watching.

Obama seemed to strike the balance of agression and likability very well, Romney continued to appear as a pompous arse.

[Phlip]

My wife and I both had a hearty laugh when, after being questioned about gun violence, Romney prattled on about how two-parent households would relieve the culture of violence in America.

Before Romney had finished his disjointed response, I had double-checked

• Virginia Tech
• Columbine
• DC Beltway Sniper
• Aurora Theater

ALL two-parent households

And I CAN'T be the only one bothered by the fact that Romney NEVER actually answered a question, so much as he acknowledged the question, and then went into "blame Obama" mode.

[1 88 U]

Originally Posted by gbaby2089

I only watched the first 2/3 of the debate (Sons of Anarchy was on, and I assumed it would all be more silly questions over things POTUS has little control of), now that I hear about the Libya discussion, I wish I had kept watching.

Obama seemed to strike the balance of agression and likability very well, Romney continued to appear as a pompous arse.

Did you catch Romney's "Binder full of women?"

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc...amio1_1280.jpg

[gbaby2089]

Originally Posted by Phlip

My wife and I both had a hearty laugh when, after being questioned about gun violence, Romney prattled on about how two-parent households would relieve the culture of violence in America.

Before Romney had finished his disjointed response, I had double-checked

• Virginia Tech
• Columbine
• DC Beltway Sniper
• Aurora Theater

ALL two-parent households

And I CAN'T be the only one bothered by the fact that Romney NEVER actually answered a question, so much as he acknowledged the question, and then went into "blame Obama" mode.

Originally Posted by 1 88 U

Did you catch Romney's "Binder full of women?"

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc...amio1_1280.jpg

I missed all of this.

Why must they leave all the zingers for the last 30 minutes

[KA24DESOneThree]

IMO, Romney sounded like an ass. I was listening to the debates while doing swivel ball seal replacement on my RRC and Romney came off as borderline belligerent and, especially on the gun control questions, ignorant. Automatic weapons are not illegal.

Omarius-

I do hope Paine is rolling in his grave and has been for the last two centuries. Quotes from a dead guy born in the eighteenth century and operating on a different value system are always going to be taken out of context; the fact of the matter is that however important his contributions to society, he was not an ethicist par excellence- he was a dude with some good ideas. Good ideas can always be perverted and they can most always be improved upon. Paine added to the foundation of modern human rights and for that, I thank him.

Rule of law and government policing do not necessarily go hand in hand. I've not figured out the details as I've had no need to, but a private police force may be a viable alternative. At the very least, the cost of policing has spiraled out of control and the powers given to departments have reached despotic levels while not providing adequate rate of return. Rule of law is not an effective deterrent- in 2010 there were 3.8 violent victimizations, 1.4 million serious violent victimizations and 14.8 million property victimizations in the United States. I have taken the safety of my vehicles, my animals, my wife and myself into my own hands- if someone wishes to steal or harm any of them I will respond with similar force escalation. I need no cop to do what any red-blooded man should.

What about the tens of thousands of dollars in state sales taxes I've paid? Hotel fees? How do you count license plate tickets and speeding tickets? Are they taxes, or are they fees for the privilege of using our wonderful, potholed, pockmarked roadways? Do I get to choose whether or not I make things easier or harder for police to find my car if it's stolen, or is the license plate law required "for my own protection?"

Fire departments can be privatized. Insurance would pay. People with no insurance would go into debt. Private fire services fill a need for which government intervention is simply not necessary.

When I was a 16, I rolled my e30 into a ditch. I crawled out and, in the process, gashed my knee pretty badly. I wasn't losing a lot of blood and, while it looked bad, it wasn't a deep cut and I hadn't damaged any musculature. I did not need ambulance or fire truck aid- I'd hurt myself worse and I wasn't in much shock. Any number of my friends passing by could've lent me a cell phone, I could've called a towing company and had my car removed and brought to my house, paid for with my own debit card and my own money. My knee could've been handled by my family physician or by myself with superglue and a butterfly bandage. I was unlucky enough to roll exactly three minutes before a fire truck was returning from a call... and stopped, then called an ambulance and the CHP. All of this was against my express wishes- I told the firemen I did not want them to stay, I told the CHP I had it under control and I told the EMTs that the ambulance was unnecessary. I was literally forced onto a gurney, strapped down and taken to the hospital.

It's interesting that you speak of a man coming up and stealing a person's business- what exactly is it when the government sends armed officers to a person's house demanding payment or the "offender" will be carted to jail, and if that person resists the theft, their life is forfeit?

I do not use Social Security or Medicare, and never will. As I've said, I would rather die in a gutter than accept handouts from the government. I'm going back to school and consider FAFSA contemptible.

Anyone can hold me accountable- don't send a cop to my place when I don't call them and I haven't initiated force. Allow me to choose between public and private fire protection. If I cannot make the choice and must be taken by ambulance to the hospital, hand me the bill. I expect nothing for free.

I do own a 240 that cost $2,800 to purchase back in '04. I've put, over the years, over $35k into it in parts, consumables and track days; in all honesty that number is probably a bit low; I currently have something like $22k in parts on the car, and it's still running a KA with bolt-ons. I have a car, you have a watch; congrats, you win that one.

I don't even have an AA. I likely could've gotten into Harvard had I given a flying fuck but I didn't- I followed my passion, which was cars. My parents were upper-middle-class, maybe lower-upper-class; our income was ~$400k/year. What schooling I do have was entirely funded by myself; I have a Golden State scholarship but have not touched it as it is state-funded and therefore poisoned fruit.

Who knows what the chances of anything are? I'll likely accrue several times that $1.5 million in today's dollars but since I believe in the virtues of selfishness, I must be a simpleton with no prospects. Thank Clark all progressives are believers in the ability of man...

You've yet to provide an honest argument as to why it is morally acceptable to force someone to give up their earnings.

Jordan- I'm open Friday night.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by Phlip

He also tore his own ass by setting up the "47%" comment by trying to make himself the victim.

The 47% comment is absolutely true though.

Someone asked the other day if I was going to watch the debate, to their shock I said "Why?"

Honestly, are any of these debates going to swing anyone in here? It's just ammo for us to grasp on to and beat down our equally unmoving rivals with.

The campaign really is just a dog and pony show for the 5% who either have there heads so far up there asses they don't know who is president or they simply can't shit or get off the pot.

These guys are also the same tools that are going to vote because of a funny music video, John Stewart or some awesome posters. They are not truly invested with an expectation of an out come that will personally impact them.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by Phlip

Before Romney had finished his disjointed response, I had double-checked

• Virginia Tech
• Columbine
• DC Beltway Sniper
• Aurora Theater

ALL two-parent households.

So you are saying that two parents can cure mental illness?

You listed 3 extreme examples but left out the thousands of daily street crime activities, domestic violence and other crimes that all seem to permeate from broken homes and the underclasses.

A quick search of criminal statistics will show the majority of inmates come from single mother homes.

I suggest you read the book "Life without Father" by David Popeno

[TheWolf]

Originally Posted by Phlip

My wife and I both had a hearty laugh when, after being questioned about gun violence, Romney prattled on about how two-parent households would relieve the culture of violence in America.

Before Romney had finished his disjointed response, I had double-checked

• Virginia Tech
• Columbine
• DC Beltway Sniper
• Aurora Theater

ALL two-parent households

And I CAN'T be the only one bothered by the fact that Romney NEVER actually answered a question, so much as he acknowledged the question, and then went into "blame Obama" mode.

I'm surprised he didn't goto the simple answer to the question. There should be no handgun violence in chicago because they've banned handguns. All the president and congress can do is write laws. Well they banned guns and did that solve the problem?

Obama starts talking about an assault weapons ban which didn't work, a ban on "cheap" hand guns, and better gun control. Please. The only way to fix inner city violence is promote values so they don't storm around and shoot each other like tribal gangs in kenya.

[Phlip]

Originally Posted by Corbic

The 47% comment is absolutely true though.

Yeah, it is absolutely true in that it shows that Romney gives not a damn about a large portion of the constituents he hopes to preside over. He apparently cares not about the elderly and disabled, vets, and retirees who happen make up a large portion of that "47%" he named and then insulted. In fact, who cares about them anyway, let them die off.

And would it kill him to directly answer ANY question he was asked? Every single time he would offer a couple of empty words, then it became not what he would ACTUALLY do, but railing on the president.

"Lady, just let me put the head in. There's no way you can get pregnant like that. Trust me, I'm a doctor!" is pretty much what I hear when Romney speaks in non-specifics about what he will do to make better all that he complains about. All we have to do is trust him and know that he has this grand plan to unveil after he is elected.
The problem is that nothing he is saying adds up or makes good enough sense, and I am not willing to put my vote behind the guy. I would sooner not vote at all.

[gbaby2089]

Originally Posted by TheWolf

so they don't storm around and shoot each other like tribal gangs in kenya.

Gotta love that racism/stereotypes.

Kenya (and the rest of Africa) is not filled with heathens running around shooting one another, you realize the Europeans took that continent back hundreds of years when they colonized it, yes?

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by gbaby2089

Gotta love that racism/stereotypes.

Kenya (and the rest of Africa) is not filled with heathens running around shooting one another, you realize the Europeans took that continent back hundreds of years when they colonized it, yes?

Do tell...

I think we are all aware of the fact there are wealthy costal cities across the continent, but I'm curious to what modern wonder Africa was before the colonial age in the 18th century.

[Highway Riding]

Originally Posted by evolvednissan

Romney for president.

+1 In the end Obama didn't utter one word on how he will CHANGE the economy for the better and I think that one brave sole who asked openly why should I vote for you when I'm not that optimistic shows the disconnect to the average american. Did anyone notice the firm and condescending tone he took with that gentleman? Does anyone think his generic answer spoke to that individual. At this point any real voter will not be swayed by these debates. For America's sake i just hope the man who wants to work harder without a hidden agenda will win. Because hidden agenda's are the reason there is a stalemate in congress. And when people utter the word flip flop and Romney - I think compromise. When it comes down to it those gunning for Romney just want to see the economy actually rebound and not some left wing poll which says so. We want to see real American and families spending more, saving more and not as politically divided as they are now!

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by Phlip

Yeah, it is absolutely true in that it shows that Romney gives not a damn about a large portion of the constituents he hopes to preside over. He apparently cares not about the elderly and disabled, vets, and retirees who happen make up a large portion of that "47%" he named and then insulted. In fact, who cares about them anyway, let them die off.

Does Obama care about the 47% on the other side of the aisle?

The Servicemen and women, men of god? The hardworking fathers that labor tirelessly to provide for their families? The entrepreneurs and inventors that have risked there lively hoods? The people that give relentlessly without ever asking for something in return? Those that believe English is the language of our country and national anthem?

What happened to the great words that once inspired a nation to usher in a new era of technology, industry and success?

"Ask not what country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country"

Or

"...the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God"



Anymore I think the Soviets won.
Sure they filed bankruptcy, had to reorganize, shed some dead weight, rename, rebrand...but they won.

The God hating, State worshiping values have permeated into our western civilization - no longer identifying oneself as a communist or socialist is seen as unsavory, let alone an outright crime...

Democrats sure have come a long way in a 150 years.... From Slavery to starting a civil war, then dragging us into two World Wars, creating not only the ever ineffective League of Nations but also the UN... oh lets not for get the KKK and Jim-Crow laws...or Vietnam... Iran's meltdown... NAFTA


Huh, I wonder what they'll drag us into in the next 150 years...

[1 88 U]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Do tell...

I think we are all aware of the fact there are wealthy costal cities across the continent, but I'm curious to what modern wonder Africa was before the colonial age in the 18th century.

I know you are not serious about educating yourself on this subject but this book is a great start.

The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality:Amazon:Books

[1 88 U]

Originally Posted by Highway Riding

+1 In the end Obama didn't utter one word on how he will CHANGE the economy for the better and I think that one brave sole who asked openly why should I vote for you when I'm not that optimistic shows the disconnect to the average american. Did anyone notice the firm and condescending tone he took with that gentleman? Does anyone think his generic answer spoke to that individual. At this point any real voter will not be swayed by these debates. For America's sake i just hope the man who wants to work harder without a hidden agenda will win. Because hidden agenda's are the reason there is a stalemate in congress. And when people utter the word flip flop and Romney - I think compromise. When it comes down to it those gunning for Romney just want to see the economy actually rebound and not some left wing poll which says so. We want to see real American and families spending more, saving more and not as politically divided as they are now!

I disagree with many aspects of Obamas jobs bill but it does exist, he did mention it in his answer and its just willfull ignorance on your part to say he didn't.

The American Jobs Act — President Barack Obama's Jobs Plan

[JimCrom]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

...As I've said, I would rather die in a gutter than accept handouts from the government. I'm going back to school and consider FAFSA contemptible.

...I expect nothing for free.

What schooling I do have was entirely funded by myself; I have a Golden State scholarship but have not touched it as it is state-funded and therefore poisoned fruit.

I can see that you are averse to accepting direct government-financed handouts and subsidies.

But how do you feel about indirect?

Part of our taxes go into services like ambulances, cops, fire departments, and college scholarships.

Part of our taxes also go into providing subsidies to oil companies. Do you use gas in your 240SX? If so you are benefiting from a government subsidy.

Do you eat food with corn or corn byproducts? What about soy or soy byproducts? A lot of tax revenue goes into subsidizing mid-western, god-fearing, shot-gun-totting, salt-of-the-earth farmers.

You mentioned insurance as one way to shake our dependence on government-run fire departments. The insurance industry also receives subsidies from the government.

I think the observation still holds weight that those arguing that government could go away tomorrow, and they would be fine, fail to recognize how interconnected all facets of our society have become.