This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread.

[ka-titties]

ugh, i can only imagine what SPL would charge for something like that. i'm guessing in the 1000 dollar range. fuck that shit.

[longfellow]

The drop spindles I posted are $5500 and another $1500 for the hubs. They want like 3k for some modified stock LCA's with spherical bearings pressed in them.

LG motorsports has some very overpriced stuff.

If I send you the measurements want to take a crack and modeling them up in Pro-E?

[SoSideways]

What kind of measurements do you need?

I'm probably going to be disassembling my front suspension over the weekend for the FLCA project, so the front knuckles will be unbolted and free from everything.

I'll still have the hubs on there though...

[GripTerror]

5500$?

I am lolz0ring right now. I spend alot on my car, but that's ridiculous.

$500~ a pair front or rear is reasonable

http://www.racecraft.com/index.php?m...ndex&cPath=280

[ManoNegra]

Originally Posted by longfellow

I wonder how hard it'd be to make drop spindles like these:

I just called over one of our machinists and showed him that picture
he glanced at and and said it didn't look hard at all then went back to his breakfast burrito... lol
but he's got 20+ years experience in prototype machining... so take it with a grain of salt

what kind of mill to do you have?

Originally Posted by longfellow

I'd like to see some one make them as well. I need to track down some front uprights so I can take measurements. Might make a trip out to the junk yard this weekend.

Time to brush up on my solidworks as well.

We already took measurements on the CMM table but haven't loaded them into the computer yet

Originally Posted by GripTerror

5500$?

I am lolz0ring right now. I spend alot on my car, but that's ridiculous.

$500~ a pair front or rear is reasonable

lol
And there's the main reason why many companies don't want to make nice parts for our cars.

[GripTerror]

By the way this was the thread which never got updated in regards to powered by max where they post progress pix on the spindles and car drop pix:

rear knuckle

If I understood right this was the 'normal' non-slammed height with the spindles:

[GripTerror]

Originally Posted by ManoNegra

lol
And there's the main reason why many companies don't want to make nice parts for our cars.

Are you out of your f'en mind? I spend thousands of dollars on my car, but 5500$ for a pair of spindles? gtfo.

For that amount of money I'll convert the suspension to a double wishbone or something ridiculous like that by a reputable race chassis shop.

Just because only one person makes it doesn't mean it's meant to cost that much. Seriously. For that amount of money I think you can get tripple adjustable motons (i think their price went up) or something else more useful. That sort of money is going towards a v8 swap not some overpriced spindle no matter how useful.

[SoSideways]

To be honest, front drop spindles are kinda pointless, when you can fix it by getting roll center adjustable lower control arms.

The rears are more important, but really, the only curves that needs to be fixed would be the toe arms' curves and the traction arms' curves.

[ManoNegra]

Originally Posted by GripTerror

Are you out of your f'en mind? I spend thousands of dollars on my car, but 5500$ for a pair of spindles? gtfo.

For that amount of money I'll convert the suspension to a double wishbone or something ridiculous like that by a reputable race chassis shop.

Just because only one person makes it doesn't mean it's meant to cost that much. Seriously. For that amount of money I think you can get tripple adjustable motons (i think their price went up) or something else more useful. That sort of money is going towards a v8 swap not some overpriced spindle no matter how useful.

I apologize, I didn't mean to be an attack on you
I wouldn't pay that much either, that's my point

those type of parts can be made but their cost would put them out of
reach of 99% of the community

I think $1000 - $1500 is a more reasonable price

[GripTerror]

Actually the front is more crucial than the rear. The front roll center drops more so than the rear. The thing with the rear though is that using LCAs the other geometry poops up when you try to correct it so there will be some binding issues. Basically the rear is less of an issue than the front and takes a lil more work to make everything just right in the rear.

Secondly, the LCAs can only do so much adjustment wise if you go really really low. That's the whole point of drop spindles correcting everything in one go...

[longfellow]

Originally Posted by ManoNegra

I just called over one of our machinists and showed him that picture
he glanced at and and said it didn't look hard at all then went back to his breakfast burrito... lol
but he's got 20+ years experience in prototype machining... so take it with a grain of salt

what kind of mill to do you have?

We already took measurements on the CMM table but haven't loaded them into the computer yet

lol
And there's the main reason why many companies don't want to make nice parts for our cars.

I plan on getting some OEM uprights this weekend to see what I can come up with. The front uprights look pretty simple to make. I figure just pop in a spherical bearing at the bottom and all is good. I might make a trip up to the local metal supply store and see how much a billet of aluminum would be to make just one. With some practice and a little patience I bet I could make a pair. The total cost in materials would only be like 150$ but it would take 10's of hours to actually machine the part by hand (for me atleast). Anyways its something I'm going to tinker around with, what ever progress I make on it I'll post in here so you can check it out and comment/criticize it. Dont think I'll ever make alot of these things but I wouldnt mind making a few depending on how mine go.

The mill isnt anything amazing but it works well enough to make small parts. I dont remember where my dad got it. I just started learning how to use it recently. I'll ask him more about it tonight after work.

I'm going to mill down my ES subframe bushings tonight as well so I'll post up the outcome of that as well. It should help correct the roll center a bit in the rear since they're is about a 1/2" space between the subframe and chassis.

[SoSideways]

Originally Posted by GripTerror

Actually the front is more crucial than the rear. The front roll center drops more so than the rear.

Secondly, the LCAs can only do so much adjustment wise if you go really low. That's the whole point...

You don't need to space your front LCAs down 4" just because you lowered your car 4".

I'm about to add 1.875" of spacing between the FLCAs and the bottom of the knuckles, and that should be good. If not, then I'll just go up another 1/8" until I feel that it's acceptable.

But by the time I'm done, I shouldn't be spaced more than 2" total, which makes the whole knuckle idea a little less appealing.

[longfellow]

If I make the knuckles it will be cheaper than the LCA things just more time involved. But I'm not worried about how long it takes to make. I can also change where the tie rod bolts on which might be useful or it might not. I'll have to look into it further.

[mmdb]

Put me on the list when you guys get it made. I need the z32 rear e-brake to work with the rear spindle. If you want a deposit let me know. Thanks!

[SoSideways]

Originally Posted by longfellow

If I make the knuckles it will be cheaper than the LCA things just more time involved. But I'm not worried about how long it takes to make. I can also change where the tie rod bolts on which might be useful or it might not. I'll have to look into it further.

Wow, so you're gonna work for free?

Pretty awesome of a dude you are!

[longfellow]

Haha as of right now there is only one set being made. If I do make them I'd sell them for around $500-600ish? Not sure this well ever go further than my own personal car though.

[ManoNegra]

I think that front upright is a lot more complicated than it looks

- it's got caster and camber built into it
- the faces of the spindle and caliper point locate the wheel
- it needs to be able to handle the large amount of torque that breaking and accelerating puts on them and not to mention the heat build up
- the spindle is a critical part. it will need to be machined and not made out of aluminum. how is it going to be assembled? or maybe convert to a bolt on style hub like the rears but that will need some serious R&D.

just a few of the things that come to mind.
I'm sure there are a whole lot of other things that need consideration.

[longfellow]

Also gotta figure out how to mount the caliper now due to the hub being relocated.

I've thought about the hub situation and so far the only think I can come up with is using a rear hub and bolting them on or some how remove a stock stud and figure out a way to press it into a new upright?

As far as heat goes, the only thing that gets hot enough to bother it would the the rotor/caliper and atleast on my car there is ducting to push that hot air away.

The rest is basically just figuring out the dimensions of the stocker and lengthening the bottom and shortening the top. I also figured I'd make the upper mount for the shock a bit thicker.

As far as not being made out of aluminum why not? Corvettes run aluminum ones, and so do a few other aftermarket set ups? Most of the time the back sides of them are milled down quite a bit too.

I know this isnt an easy task and I'm not sure that I can pull it off. But I'd like to see how far I can take this, but thats also why I'm not making any promises. I have to make uprights for my roadster anyways though but those are alot smaller and going to be used with double a-arms.

[ManoNegra]

Originally Posted by longfellow

ve thought about the hub situation and so far the only think I can come up with is using a rear hub and bolting them

If you go this route the bolt pattern for the hub needs to be precise
not something that can be done accurately enough on a drill press.

on or some how remove a stock stud and figure out a way to press it into a new upright

don't see how, take a look at the uprights
this is a precise piece that needs to be machined and held securely and safely in the upright.

As far as heat goes, the only thing that gets hot enough to bother it would the the rotor/caliper and atleast on my car there is ducting to push that hot air away.

As far as not being made out of aluminum why not? Corvettes run aluminum ones, and so do a few other aftermarket set ups? Most of the time the back sides of them are milled down quite a bit too.

6061 is strong in itself but like most aluminum alloys
it will weaken and warp with repeated high heat cycles
a stronger maybe heat-threated type (more expensive) would probably be a better choice.
Another good idea would be to have the design stress analyzed in a CAD program.

[PoorMans180SX]

So maybe it's just me, but for all this trouble, and all this work, I think I'm going to stick with steel. Driftworks or PSM.

PSM will probably come out with front drop knuckles, and then probably front and rear control arms.

Don't get me wrong, it would be sick if someone took the time to develop some full aluminum, adjustable uprights with heim joints. But if I can correct my roll center and geometry with currently available parts, then I don't need much else.

But, on with the thread! I'm enjoying it.

[GripTerror]

I think it would be more beneficial to use spindles to drop a car 2-2.5" all around... then when corner balancing a car obviously adjust height per spring perch.... and correct for roll center precision and other factors through adjustable LCAs... that makes sense to me... i dont see why we'd need all adjustable spindles.... unless u want everyone to be at their own height and their own settings overall.

The point of these is for ppl to drop their cars and have corrected geometry... lower center of gravity for the win... or slammed for the show guys...

All I care about in the end is 2-2.5" drop all around, corrected geometry (eg; roll center, bumpsteer, camber curve, whatever else etc...) while attaining lower center of gravity... and no binding and other crap... all spherical everywhere no bushings. = win for me.

[ManoNegra]

So maybe it's just me, but for all this trouble, and all this work, I think I'm going to stick with steel. Driftworks or PSM.

PSM will probably come out with front drop knuckles, and then probably front and rear control arms.

Don't get me wrong, it would be sick if someone took the time to develop some full aluminum, adjustable uprights with heim joints. But if I can correct my roll center and geometry with currently available parts, then I don't need much else.

yes, I think that this is what will end up happening

there are going to be a few jigged and welded steel pieces offered

and maybe some machined aluminum ones

and the steel ones will be a lot more popular

since given the choice, the community will go for whatever is good enough and cheaper

[PoorMans180SX]

Hey, don't get my wrong bro, I want the best of the best on my car. If someone actually goes through with producing them, I'll jump on them. I'm just trying to state that it's better to have correct geometry than it is to have something that weighs 8lbs less.

If I was like the rest of the community, I would just say something like "You don't need a correct roll center to go drifting!".

I started this thread because I wanted a slammed car that still functioned optimally. I don't cut corners.

Originally Posted by GripTerror

I think it would be more beneficial to use spindles to drop a car 2-2.5" all around... then when corner balancing a car obviously adjust height per spring perch.... and correct for roll center precision and other factors through adjustable LCAs... that makes sense to me... i dont see why we'd need all adjustable spindles.... unless u want everyone to be at their own height and their own settings overall.

The point of these is for ppl to drop their cars and have corrected geometry... lower center of gravity for the win... or slammed for the show guys...

All I care about in the end is 2-2.5" drop all around, corrected geometry (eg; roll center, bumpsteer, camber curve, whatever else etc...) while attaining lower center of gravity... and no binding and other crap... all spherical everywhere no bushings. = win for me.

See, there's a problem with that. If you just drop the car using the uprights, you will actually over correct. The center of gravity drops, but the roll center and everything else stay the same. This is not actually what you want. As Def stated before, you want your roll center just under your center of gravity.

Really only the slammed cars will need drop knuckles and RCA LCA's.

[ka-titties]

Originally Posted by longfellow

The drop spindles I posted are $5500 and another $1500 for the hubs. They want like 3k for some modified stock LCA's with spherical bearings pressed in them.

LG motorsports has some very overpriced stuff.

If I send you the measurements want to take a crack and modeling them up in Pro-E?

ill give it a shot.

[udon!]

does front roll center need to be corrected on s13 or just rear?

is pbm going to make front roll correction if so?

[95KA-Turbo]

Yes, front roll center is "more important" since it drops faster then the rear.

[GripTerror]

im just wondering when pbm is going to post any bloody update on their uprights

[Def]

A front machined aluminum upright could potentially run into strength issues where it mounts to the strut. The dimensions are constrained by the strut mounting flanges, so you can make it a bit thicker, but that's it, so strength could be an issue.

The steel hub mounting bit will have to be machined separately and attached somehow, etc.

There's just a lot that would go into one, which is why I decided it wasn't worth the trouble given that you only need to get one adjustable arm to correct the roll center up there.

I guess I just don't understand the spindle thing... especially when no one talking about making them has even done a detailed look into our suspension geometry. I'm definitely not one to shy away from "hardcore parts," as I've definitely made/designed a few for the S chassis. I just think you guys are banging your head against a wall just for the sake of "another part to add to the car."

Now if you're looking at a new spindle for faster steering and bigger steering angles, that I can understand, but the geometry part is completely being glossed over and not understood by most other than "stock must be best, let's get it back there"...

[drift937]

Originally Posted by GripTerror

im just wondering when pbm is going to post any bloody update on their uprights

i pme d them and they said they are in the protyping stage but nowhere near production

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Def

A front machined aluminum upright could potentially run into strength issues where it mounts to the strut. The dimensions are constrained by the strut mounting flanges, so you can make it a bit thicker, but that's it, so strength could be an issue.

The steel hub mounting bit will have to be machined separately and attached somehow, etc.

There's just a lot that would go into one, which is why I decided it wasn't worth the trouble given that you only need to get one adjustable arm to correct the roll center up there.

I guess I just don't understand the spindle thing... especially when no one talking about making them has even done a detailed look into our suspension geometry. I'm definitely not one to shy away from "hardcore parts," as I've definitely made/designed a few for the S chassis. I just think you guys are banging your head against a wall just for the sake of "another part to add to the car."

Now if you're looking at a new spindle for faster steering and bigger steering angles, that I can understand, but the geometry part is completely being glossed over and not understood by most other than "stock must be best, let's get it back there"...

Thanks again Def. This is what I was trying to get at.