This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread.

[SoSideways]

OK, too pissed off at the situation and I've been too tired/exhausted to work on the car today, but I thought about this all day long.

I THINK I might have figured out what the true problem is.

Because the tie rods are spaced down 2", the tie rods needed to be shorter than if they were in stock configuration, ie. tie rods + tie rod ends with the ball joint type end without any sort of spacers between the tie rod ends and the knuckles.

Again, think of the hypotenuse of a right triangle being the stock tie rod configuration, and the lower line that forms the 90* right angle with the side line as the tie rod that has been spaced down.

With that said, I think this is what the problem is:

Because my modified tie rods are shorter than the stock tie rods, the tie rods end up hitting the FLCAs sooner on the one side, and on the other side, it doesn't even push the knuckle's steering arm back and out as far as stock.

It's starting to make sense to me now.

So now, in order for me to get more steering angle than even stock, I need to make the tie rods longer... much longer...

95KA-turbo - are your tie rods shorter than the stock or are they longer?

[95KA-Turbo]

This is my rod ends with Z33 inners all the way in compared to the S14 inners and outers all the way in:



These are mine vs S14 inner/outers all the way out - I am pretty sure I can get a little more out of mine, but not a whole lot:






You are using S14 inner tie rods though correct? Your tie rods shouldn't be too short? SPL recommends the S14 inners with modded knuckles. I couldn't get my toe even close to right with my modded knuckles so I went with the shorter Z33 inner rods.

One thing I can say is the shank on my current knuckles is at ~65-70 degree angle, not at 90. So to get it at 90 I would have to extend the tie rods another ~1/4 of an inch - which I can do because I have one side all the way in and the other side extended a little bit to get the toe at an eye balls 0.

Not to mention the knuckles I have on there are not done right, and the arm the tie rod bolts to is at an angle, so the new ones will have a flat bolting area so I should be able to get the bolt at 90 degrees, and hopefully my tie rod set up will work with it fine!

[SoSideways]

I actually had to use the Z33 tie rods, because with the S-chassis tie rods, even with the tie rod ends screwed all the way in, they were still too long, and it gave me massive toe in on both sides.

With the Z33 tie rods all the way in, I was able to get decent toe out on both sides.

I am going to extend the FLCAs a little bit and adjust the tie rods accordingly, to see if I can get a little more steering angle out of them.

I've already adjusted caster via the tension rods a bit to try to move the steering arms forward a bit more, so the tie rods don't have to move backwards as much when pushing the knuckle out, if that makes any sense to you.

If all else fails, I'm going to cut down part of that end link bracket, and just reinforce it another way or something.

[95KA-Turbo]

So do you need them to be longer or shorter? I am kind of confused as to what exactly is happening in general, lol.

Your toe is correct but when you turn the tie rod hits the LCA before you are done steering?

[SoSideways]

I believe I need my tie rods to be longer overall, but I cannot lengthen them anymore or else my toe will be way whack.

Basically the tie rod ends, in particular the rod ends themselves, hit the bracket on the FLCAs where the end links bolt up to, before I'm even done steering.

There's still at least half an inch or something like that before the tie rods bottom out on the rack.

I kinda made an effort to describe what the issue is over on NRR... check it out if you have time. It's in Def's FLCA thread.

[xpinoyxmk]

Need help...

I installed my Dmax angle adapter and tie rod ends, not my ends are all the way in and i still have some degrees of toe in. On the drivers side its worse than the passengers side but i think the passenger side is good but i have no adjustibility for toe out on either side, only toe in.

Think i need to switch to z33 inners or something?

Im probably going to take off the adapter because thats what is causing the problem.

[SoSideways]

Well yeah.

Your shit's too long.

You need shorter inners.

[niteridaz503]

This thread is awesome lovin all the suspension parts & info available

[xpinoyxmk]

Originally Posted by SoSideways

Well yeah.

Your shit's too long.

You need shorter inners.

I know im long lol

z33 inners will work?? or z32 inners?? Which ones??

Can anyone translate japanese?? Got the pdf file for the Dmax Up adapter but dont know how to read jap.

[SoSideways]

I'm pretty sure at this point that the Z32 and Z33 inners are the same length.

The only reason why most sources say the Tein Z33 tie rods (I have to be specific here in naming only the Tein Z33 inner tie rods) are slightly longer than the Z32 tie rods, I believe, is because the Tein Z33 tie rods come with the steering rack spacer, which makes the tie rods 6mm longer on each side, compared to OEM (or OEM replacement) Z32 tie rods installed with the locking plates.

If you don't use the steering rack spacers on the tie rods, then the OEM Z32 tie rods will be the same in overall length as the Z33 inners.

If someone can 100% verify this by measuring a set of the Z32 inners, then we'll have 100% proof of this (and I'm pretty sure this is going to be an internet/world wide first, because I for damn sure didn't find any solid info on this ANYWHERE on the interwebz).

In your case, xpinoyxmk, you are using those huge spacer things from Dmax, so the 6mm spacers provided by Tein (if you bought Tein tie rods) would be useless. Not to mention the Tein Z33 tie rods were on backorder (probably for another week or so... maybe back in stock now though) when I made my order a couple of weeks ago.

BTW, what do you need translated? Like, what don't you get from the instructions?

[95KA-Turbo]

I got my Z33 inners in like 3-4 days, so I'd say they aren't back ordered anymore.




Sideways - it sounds like your problem is the actual construction of your spindles. Are they cut already? What's the angle of the tie rod mounting point like? If they're stock then cutting them will fix your problem because you can make them work, haha.

[SoSideways]

Yeah well, I ordered them from SPL Parts at first, but they didn't have any in stock, and there weren't any at Tein, so they had to order more lol

I ended up getting the last set on the shelves from FR Sport lol

But yeah, my knuckles are stock, thus the slight tilt inwards on the steering arms.

I'm determined to try and make this work on stock knuckles, or else I would have dumped all this money into the steering system for nothing.

[95KA-Turbo]

Yeah my friend welded up my modded knuckles to have the same angle as the stock arms. When we did it we realized that angle was going to limit the amount of angle possible. I also drilled out that hole too much so I needed new ones anyway, so this time we're going to weld it on straight and it should make it all work out properly.

You wouldn't have to add steering angle, you could just cut and weld it back on straight - not sure what that'll do for your ackerman or anything else.

[mmdb]

Just to add to the driftworks knuckle setup. Apparently the rear knuckles increased my rear track width. Good if you don't have wheels nearing the fender limits, bad if you do. Unfortunately now I have to look for a new set of wheels.

[SoSideways]

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

Yeah my friend welded up my modded knuckles to have the same angle as the stock arms. When we did it we realized that angle was going to limit the amount of angle possible. I also drilled out that hole too much so I needed new ones anyway, so this time we're going to weld it on straight and it should make it all work out properly.

You wouldn't have to add steering angle, you could just cut and weld it back on straight - not sure what that'll do for your ackerman or anything else.

If I were going to cut and reweld my knuckles, I might as well get them modded for steering angle, since that's pretty much why I went into this steering thing in the first place! hahahaha I was just trying to work with what I've got, that's all.

Originally Posted by mmdb

Just to add to the driftworks knuckle setup. Apparently the rear knuckles increased my rear track width. Good if you don't have wheels nearing the fender limits, bad if you do. Unfortunately now I have to look for a new set of wheels.

Just pull the fenders man!

[95KA-Turbo]

Originally Posted by SoSideways

If I were going to cut and reweld my knuckles, I might as well get them modded for steering angle, since that's pretty much why I went into this steering thing in the first place! hahahaha I was just trying to work with what I've got, that's all.




Just pull the fenders man!

Defintely do this!

You can get them to pull out pretty far

[Def]

Originally Posted by SoSideways

If I were going to cut and reweld my knuckles, I might as well get them modded for steering angle, since that's pretty much why I went into this steering thing in the first place! hahahaha I was just trying to work with what I've got, that's all.

Or you could just buy some aluminum spindles that have a custom amount of steering angle that can be changed with a few bolts!

Because that's how budget ballers roll...

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by mmdb

Just to add to the driftworks knuckle setup. Apparently the rear knuckles increased my rear track width. Good if you don't have wheels nearing the fender limits, bad if you do. Unfortunately now I have to look for a new set of wheels.

Aren't your arms more flat now? Doesn't that make sense? Even my PSM subframe risers made my wheels less cambered and more flush with the fender.

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

Defintely do this!

You can get them to pull out pretty far

GAHHH that makes me want an S14.

Originally Posted by Def

Or you could just buy some aluminum spindles that have a custom amount of steering angle that can be changed with a few bolts!

Because that's how budget ballers roll...

YES Please.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by Tearlessj

Lookie what I found.






And also looks like they also offer a camber adjustment setup.

That's a neat part, but not the best idea. If you are going to move one inner pick-up point you should move all of them. If you move only the LCA pick-up you are messing with the anti-dive significantly, you would actually be putting WAY more anti-dive geometry into the front end. Moving the tension rod pick-up points is simple enough, but you would have to pay someone to do it. The real killer is the steering though. You can't really move the rack up at all realistically. You're better off correcting at the other end of the arms, although I had thought about putting a cam on the tension rod pivot point to be able to adjust anti-dive.

[mmdb]

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

Defintely do this!

You can get them to pull out pretty far

I could... but I hate messing with the stock body lines... I like to keep it subtle for daily driver usage. But if my car was for strictly race purposes I'd put a wide body kit and some 315s. I did give the car more negative camber so the tire isn't being eaten by the fender as much. Seeing as how the car doesn't roll that much with these new knuckles, this may or may not be ideal for grip. I'll need to a pyrometer to figure that out.

[GSXRJJordan]

Originally Posted by mmdb

I could... but I hate messing with the stock body lines... I like to keep it subtle for daily driver usage. But if my car was for strictly race purposes I'd put a wide body kit and some 315s. I did give the car more negative camber so the tire isn't being eaten by the fender as much. Seeing as how the car doesn't roll that much with these new knuckles, this may or may not be ideal for grip. I'll need to a pyrometer to figure that out.

I think a little pull in the back is subtle lol. Pyrometers are cheap, I just got one this year but can't believe I went so long without one!

[SoSideways]

Originally Posted by Def

Or you could just buy some aluminum spindles that have a custom amount of steering angle that can be changed with a few bolts!

Because that's how budget ballers roll...

So when is this part coming out again? hahaha

And trust me, if it was out already, I wouldn't have gone and done what I did lol



Quick update: nothing to update, since I spent the weekend playing video games on the xbox360 that my wife got me for my birthday lol

[Def]

Originally Posted by SoSideways

So when is this part coming out again? hahaha

And trust me, if it was out already, I wouldn't have gone and done what I did lol



Quick update: nothing to update, since I spent the weekend playing video games on the xbox360 that my wife got me for my birthday lol

There's a lot more work that has to go into it, then the time to get it all machined.

In fact, I think we're down to making our own bolts because the ones out there just suck too badly... or just aren't up to badassness of deserving to be on our uprights. Either one works.

So it's not going to be next week or anything, but there is progress being made.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Def

There's a lot more work that has to go into it, then the time to get it all machined.

In fact, I think we're down to making our own bolts because the ones out there just suck too badly... or just aren't up to badassness of deserving to be on our uprights. Either one works.

So it's not going to be next week or anything, but there is progress being made.

Work with ballerbolts.com? 12-point titanium bolts ftw, haha.

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Work with ballerbolts.com? 12-point titanium bolts ftw, haha.

Titanium is weaker then steel.

[PerilousActs]

Depends on the type of steel.
Titanium vs. steel - SciForums.com

[SoSideways]

Originally Posted by Def

There's a lot more work that has to go into it, then the time to get it all machined.

In fact, I think we're down to making our own bolts because the ones out there just suck too badly... or just aren't up to badassness of deserving to be on our uprights. Either one works.

So it's not going to be next week or anything, but there is progress being made.

Well then this won't exactly work for me lol

Originally Posted by Def

Or you could just buy some aluminum spindles that have a custom amount of steering angle that can be changed with a few bolts!

Because that's how budget ballers roll...

Since I am just basically trying to fix some issues, then the car will be on the road and I'll more than likely never touch the stupid front suspension again lol

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by S14DB

Titanium is weaker then steel.

You're right, but Baller Bolts titanium bolts are still stronger than grade 8 bolts that you can buy at the hardware store.

They also make steel grade 12.9 bolts. I was only thinking titanium because of the obvious weight savings as well as the increased strength over factory items.

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

You're right, but Baller Bolts titanium bolts are still stronger than grade 8 bolts that you can buy at the hardware store.

They also make steel grade 12.9 bolts. I was only thinking titanium because of the obvious weight savings as well as the increased strength over factory items.

Grade 12.9 or Class 12.9?

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by S14DB

Grade 12.9 or Class 12.9?

Quoted from Baller Bolts:

We are the first company to bring you - Titanium Dress Up Kits, Full Suspension Hardware Upgrades, Full OEM replacement hardware kits. Our kits are designed to far exceed standard OEM fastener ratings. All of our titanium fasteners are Grade 5 (6AL-4V) and are heat treated to a yield strength of 140 KSI. We also have titanium fasteners that exceed 160 KSI in our titanium aircraft section. All of our alloy steel fasteners meet or exceed grade 10.9 and most are 12.9 grade.