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Old 02-21-2004, 04:37 AM   #1
240Stilo
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Wider track front or rear?

For those that have dipped into some literature in the motorsports genre let me know if there has been any mention to how a car reacts to having a wider track in the rear versus wider track in the front vs both front and back with equal tracks. I just thought about it because go karts have wider tracks in the rear and handle well.
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Old 02-21-2004, 09:40 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 240Stilo
For those that have dipped into some literature in the motorsports genre let me know if there has been any mention to how a car reacts to having a wider track in the rear versus wider track in the front vs both front and back with equal tracks. I just thought about it because go karts have wider tracks in the rear and handle well.
Fancy Karts have adjustable track.

The general theory is:
A wider front track reduces the amount of lateral load transfer across
the front axle, improving the front tires' cornering capability and reducing
understeer. A wider rear track reduces the amount of lateral load transfer across the rear axle, improving the rear tires' cornering capability and increasing understeer.

I have zero experience in it's practical application, so how it plays out on our cars specifically is a mystery.
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Old 02-21-2004, 11:42 AM   #3
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Hi, I'm new to the site.
In the book "How To Make Your Car Handle," by Fred Puhn, it says that to get the top handling out of any rwd car the rear track width must be wider. This is the reason that most exotic cars are built with wider rear tires and wider rear tracks than the fronts. Most race cars are the same way, especially open wheels. In their case, with the amount of power that they produce, they would have absoluteltly no warning at the limit of lateral grip meaning that you almost never would be able to keep the rear of the car tucked in behind the front where it should be.
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Old 02-21-2004, 01:40 PM   #4
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i would say the front example 215/50/15 for the front and 205/55/15 for the rear less understeer but thats just me but what carfreak says does make sense so i dunno
good luck
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Old 02-21-2004, 09:56 PM   #5
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Personally, I've tried various setups and the wider rear track works better on my 240. Most people will tell you to use an even wheel/tire setup for a more nuetral handling car (240sx). But there is so much more to that than just the wheels and tires. You have to take into account all your suspension mods and settings.

I would stay away from a wider front than rear track. This is not a balanced setup and will leave you with less control. It's reserved for the front wheel drive guys.

Spend some time learning about suspension and tires, and play with the different arangements. (borrow rims and tires from friends if you have to) It will take a while, but you'll eventually narrow it down.
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Old 02-22-2004, 02:00 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightwalker
I would stay away from a wider front than rear track. This is not a balanced setup and will leave you with less control. It's reserved for the front wheel drive guys.

cuz im a hondaguy
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Old 02-22-2004, 04:43 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightwalker
wider rear track works better on my 240.
<snip>
there is so much more to that than just the wheels and tires. You have to take into account all your suspension mods and settings.
May I ask why it is that a wider rear track works better on your 240 and what kind of driving it works better for? ... I think it's important to list since we don't all do the same type of (track) driving!

I'll whole heartedly agree with your latter statement about taking into account the rest of your suspension and its geometry -- There really isn't any way for us to adjust track other than offset of our wheels -- which, unless you're running 16*9 -10 wheels, won't make much of a noticable difference to most of us.

The only way I know of to adjust rear track is to widen the subframe and axles if need be. Other than that, you'll have to rely on finding lower and lower offset wheels.

In the front, an adjustable lower control arm used with maxed out camber plates (to max +camber) will get you a limited amount of extra track, but probably not more than 6 or 7 centimeters. Using offset of wheels to adjust front track has a few mentionable weak points... of which I'm not familiar to explain, but are definitely present. Some "terms" to think about are scrub radius, ackerman steering and... umm... yeah. driftingpanda could chime in on this if he ever reads the thread.
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Old 02-22-2004, 07:20 AM   #8
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I spend some time on a particular road, and have noticed that my car is more stable and predictable with my lower offset wheels in the back, and not so low offset wheels in the front. This is with same size tires. The road is pretty off camber in some parts, and has really nice low speed and high speed turns. With same offset wheels all around, my car is pretty neutral, by switching to low offset in front, the car has a hint of oversteer, which I like. I'm not doing too much steering, and the car seems to turn itself. What I've been taught is the less you have to steer into a corner, the faster you will be. Unless you're scrubbing off in the rear, which I don't seem to be doing.
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Old 02-23-2004, 10:42 AM   #9
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I think I'm going to try a bit wider rear tire with my next set. I usually have to tune out quite a bit of over-steer when running with same size tires all around.

I have 215/45's all around with the rear and front having a bit more track than stock, and the rear with a touch more than the front. Car still oversteers slightly. I end up having to soften my rear dampers too much to control the oversteer, and I'm not properly damping my springs on track.

I think I would rather run a 215 f and 225 rear, to balance the car a bit better allowing me to up the damping all around, and better tune handling with the sway bars.

I think the wider tires you can get the better. On throttle grip on corner exit is what really makes for good speed down the straights. The faster you are at the end of the straight, the faster your lap times. I need to play with this more, but the more rear tire grip I can get without making the car push, the better.

Something you have to be carefull about with this kind of tuning is the possibility of causing all sorts of odd issues with suspension geometry that could make living with the car daily fairly difficult. The kind of suspension alignment, and settings required to get the most from the car, and tires is often far to aggresive for a daily driver.
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Old 02-23-2004, 02:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adey
There really isn't any way for us to adjust track other than offset of our wheels

what about hubcentric spacers? or am i misunderstanding this whole thread?
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Old 02-23-2004, 02:26 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westboroughpimp
what about hubcentric spacers? or am i misunderstanding this whole thread?
Yeah I got 235/45 all around and was thinking of just getting some 1 inch spacers for the rear. For one to make it flush, and because I saw that many other RWD cars have a wider rear track.
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Old 02-23-2004, 03:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 240Stilo
For one to make it flush, and because I saw that many other RWD cars have a wider rear track.

*sigh*
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Old 02-23-2004, 03:16 PM   #13
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Spacers would serve the same purpose.
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Old 02-23-2004, 03:31 PM   #14
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Im too busy at work to write a whole damn essay is regards to wheels and suspension.

Wheels plays one thing on the track but doesn't stop their. There is a shietload of things that plays into 'car handling'.

These things comes in play when you start stepping your toes into track days etc... It'll comes together.

As for Spacer... IMO they are not safe.

Goodluck and I suggest you spend your money on going to track days and find out yourself. Everything doesn't apply to all drivers. They all play differently. Stop wasting money and get your butt out their and find out yourself.
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Old 02-23-2004, 04:20 PM   #15
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my setup:
16x7 + 205/55 fronts
16x8 + 225/50 rears

this setup suits my driving style perfectly.
i tried even tires before (215/45 R17 fronts and rears).
it didnt suit me quite well.. too much oversteer in autocrosses...

with the setup i have now.. my corner speed is slightly faster and the car felt more balanced and predictable.
but thats just me and my driving style..
i rarely understeers with my current setup... the only way im going to understeer is when i accidentaly lock the front brakes entering a corner.. ::blush::
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Old 02-23-2004, 05:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replicant_S14
*sigh*
Haha...Sorry but I gotta admit they do look good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TRUENOCOUPE
As for Spacer... IMO they are not safe.
Eibach seems to disagree since they are now starting to make hubcentric spacers as well.
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Old 02-23-2004, 05:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 240Stilo
Eibach seems to disagree since they are now starting to make hubcentric spacers as well.
Eibach is not the greatest suspension tuner in the world. Half of there shiet is POS.

It doesn't take a special brain to figure out of why spacers are not that safe.

You may be able to run with them for a long time and call it 'lucky' but it you are looking into road racing, Then don't be a cheapo and adding spacers on short studs. Buy the right wheel for the car.
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Old 02-23-2004, 05:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRUENOCOUPE
Eibach is not the greatest suspension tuner in the world. Half of there shiet is POS.

It doesn't take a special brain to figure out of why spacers are not that safe.

You may be able to run with them for a long time and call it 'lucky' but it you are looking into road racing, Then don't be a cheapo and adding spacers on short studs. Buy the right wheel for the car.

what about the hubcentric spacers that H&R sells. they bolt on to your hub, then they have their own studs coming out of the spacer. i know a lot of ppl who use it on the track with no problems.
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Old 02-23-2004, 06:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westboroughpimp
what about the hubcentric spacers that H&R sells. they bolt on to your hub, then they have their own studs coming out of the spacer. i know a lot of ppl who use it on the track with no problems.
Those would work also. But IMO. They are not safe.

You are putting two stress in one.

Anything that is not direct with the hub and strut housing is never safe. The vibration of the strut housing to the wheels can affect lots of things.

Lets just call it 'lucky' for now. I would never suggest spacers.
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Old 02-23-2004, 09:43 PM   #20
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^^^ i agree.. vibration will create metal fatigue (either long term or short term)... and trust me.. you dont want any metal parts snapping down there
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:03 AM   #21
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I think the "danger" of running bolt-on spacers is exaggerated. In my 2 (admittedly short) years taking part in track days and drift events, I've never heard of a spacer failing or causing any type of failure. Furthermore they've been in use on D1 cars for at least a couple of years, and they don't seem to suffer any problems from spacers, either.

I don't deny there's added risk in running them, I just don't think that the risks associated with running bolt-on spacers is necessarily as high as people say.

My main concern when running spacers is the considerable unsprung and rotating mass that they add.
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Old 02-24-2004, 10:29 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adey
I think the "danger" of running bolt-on spacers is exaggerated. In my 2 (admittedly short) years taking part in track days and drift events, I've never heard of a spacer failing or causing any type of failure. Furthermore they've been in use on D1 cars for at least a couple of years, and they don't seem to suffer any problems from spacers, either.
We've been using 7mm spacers with NISMO 60mm wheel studs for two seasons of racing now without problems. Others have raced more than that long without trouble. I would definitely say spacers are safe. I don't have any experience with bolt-on spacers, but I wouldn't worry about using them in a racing environment.

As for ideal, spacers are far from that. Always better to get the wheel that fits, but that isn't always possible or financially the best way to go. With 1" spacers, you'll probably have increased wear on the wheel bearings and ball joints, but I wouldn't say they are unsafe. I've never heard of a spacer related failure on any car and I've been racing/autoxing/hotlapping for a decade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adey
My main concern when running spacers is the considerable unsprung and rotating mass that they add.
The 7mm spacers I have are just aluminum and weight just a few ounces. The bolt-on ones would be more weight, but can more than be offset by selecting a lighter wheel or brake package.
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:18 AM   #23
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From my limited experience I would say the setup that I have currently is the best that I have felt in a s13.

I am running 16x8 rear and 16x7 front with 225/45/16 and 205/50/16 respectively. The car has a much more neutral feel and the sudden oversteer issue is all but gone. Oversteer can be throttle induced but is very controllable and understeer is eliminated as long as I keep my tire pressure set correctly

38 psi front
42 psi rear

At these settings the car just feels "tossable" and very stable
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:47 AM   #24
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when you post about stuff, let us know your spring rates and other footworks. maybe you can help others (including me) set up their cars better. also you guys with adjustable ride height, what do you set it at front vs rear?
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:28 PM   #25
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I am running HKS kg/mm springs w/ AGX shocks set to full stiff front and rear to compensate for the higher spring rates
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:29 PM   #26
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Once again...

One person is getting an idea how to set the car in his own driving ability which is the wrong way to do a R&D on your own race/street/auto X/ car.

If you really need to do an R&D get your car out to the track etc... Everything will fall in hands and start noticing things of whats needs to be done.

Moto P over in Club4ag has a various of track times, very knowledgeable on the AE86. I took his suggestion but at the end of the day it was not my ideal of setting up my car. The driving ability wasnt up to speed at the time.

Im not saying he is wrong and you shouldn't do what he says but finding out things on your own is better at the end of the days cause you know what you exactly need for your car and how you want to set it up.

Goodluck.
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Old 02-24-2004, 04:02 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRUENOCOUPE
Lets just call it 'lucky' for now. I would never suggest spacers.
I know lots of people that use spacers on track cars . They all have studs that pass thru the spacer. The only important thing is that the longer studs don't fail. I do not like the look of the H+R spacers that bolt to the hub and then have bolts attached to the spacer for the wheel. But the ones that are just holes with the extra long bolts should not be any issue. H+R sells both kinds by the way.
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Old 02-24-2004, 04:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98sr20ve
I know lots of people that use spacers on track cars . They all have studs that pass thru the spacer. The only important thing is that the longer studs don't fail. I do not like the look of the H+R spacers that bolt to the hub and then have bolts attached to the spacer for the wheel. But the ones that are just holes with the extra long bolts should not be any issue. H+R sells both kinds by the way.
I was more settled in with the Hub Centric which is OK but having longer bolts its safer?

I think your logic is going backwards.
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Old 02-24-2004, 04:33 PM   #29
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ya werd. the ones with their own bolts are more expensive and H&R says they are safe for track use
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Old 02-24-2004, 06:32 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRUENOCOUPE
Once again...

One person is getting an idea how to set the car in his own driving ability which is the wrong way to do a R&D on your own race/street/auto X/ car.

If you really need to do an R&D get your car out to the track etc... Everything will fall in hands and start noticing things of whats needs to be done.

Moto P over in Club4ag has a various of track times, very knowledgeable on the AE86. I took his suggestion but at the end of the day it was not my ideal of setting up my car. The driving ability wasnt up to speed at the time.

Im not saying he is wrong and you shouldn't do what he says but finding out things on your own is better at the end of the days cause you know what you exactly need for your car and how you want to set it up.

Goodluck.
I understand your point but everyone needs a starting point. If he doesn't know where to start he will never get anything accomplished. We both have the same chassis so it is a good way to get info.

TRUENOCOUPE is completely correct track events are the only way to get a feel for your setup. You may absolutely hate my setup but at least you know what you don't like as opposed to knowing nothing
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