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Old 08-02-2021, 02:28 PM   #1
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Nismo vs SPC Control Arms

Deleted the HICAS on the R32 and I'm agonizing on trying to prevent scope creep.

Right now my two main options to install rear Toe- Arms.

Nismo Factory Style Arms or SPC Adjustable arms - both using the GK - HICAS eliminator.

This is a strictly No-Poly, No-Spherical Build - as I'm over all that garbage.

Ideally, I'd like to keep it all factory and OEM - however I am concerned about the tolerances of the GK-kit and being able to properly adjust the rear-toe. I don't recall if the the traction arms on a stock Nissan used the camber bolts or not. There is no provision on the GK unit.






Last edited by Corbic; 08-03-2021 at 08:48 AM..
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Old 08-02-2021, 09:16 PM   #2
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Really confused here..

you're asking about control arms in the title, and posted about rear traction arms ... but talking about which arms to use with HICAS eliminator?

might want to clarify which arm you are asking about. Rear lower control arm, rear traction arm (forward link), or rear toe arms (that would go where the HICAS setup was)
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Old 08-03-2021, 08:23 AM   #3
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It sounds like he's trying to replace the arms that GKTech included with the HICAS elimination kit with either SPC or NISMO - I think at least.


In comparison, both look pretty shitty but I'd go NISMO, box the bottoms so there is a little more strength and run those. That's of course you're silly enough to get rid of the GKTechs. Not sure why those scare you but it sounds like the maintenance is too much for you to handle.
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:24 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupaDoopa View Post
It sounds like he's trying to replace the arms that GKTech included with the HICAS elimination kit with either SPC or NISMO - I think at least.

In comparison, both look pretty shitty but I'd go NISMO, box the bottoms so there is a little more strength and run those. That's of course you're silly enough to get rid of the GKTechs. Not sure why those scare you but it sounds like the maintenance is too much for you to handle.
I'm not buying the complete GKTech Kit which includes Bar, Arms and Poly Bushings for the knuckles.

You've been around long enough to know polyurethane does not belong on a car. Spherical only belongs on the track.

My S13 was full retard. - Solid Subframe mounts, spherical arms, poly everything and the car was god awful because of it.

There is a reason you don't see Spherical or Poly on any OEM application - regardless of how exotic, hyper-race ready or special it is.

F40 Control Arm





To my knowledge, the only Rubber based arms available are -

Nismo Factory Style
SPC Adjustable (SPC is a leader in alignment technology and equipment)
NRG DME
TruHart

Megan and Nismo both offer "harder rubber" press in bushings for you arms, knuckles and subframes.


Answer to OP's Question:

GKTech confirmed what I suspected. The Elimination Bar would require an adjustable Toe-Arm to make sure toe-alignment is properly set. Even if it's only a few MM off from the factory sub-frame, that's enough to throw off you toe with no way to correct.
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Old 08-03-2021, 11:11 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbic View Post
Megan and Nismo both offer "harder rubber" press in bushings for you arms, knuckles and subframes.
id go with the NISMO hard rubber inserts. i have megan lateral rods and trailing arms on my Protege and honestly, the hard rubber inserts are garbage. id take heim joints over them any day. pretty sure Megan is using cheap rubber in their products.

and you mentioned above about your dislike using urethane and heim joints from your S13 experience. im curious... what is it about both that you dislike so much? my S13 hatch is currently all heim joints and urethane bushings and i have zero qualms with any of my suspension setup (outside of the driveline noise from the rear subframe which i will remedy one day). ive driven a low mileage S13 Silvia a friend owns and the suspension slop is just god awful. not sure why youd be ok with that?
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Old 08-03-2021, 11:32 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by dorkidori_s13 View Post
and you mentioned above about your dislike using urethane and heim joints from your S13 experience. im curious... what is it about both that you dislike so much? my S13 hatch is currently all heim joints and urethane bushings and i have zero qualms with any of my suspension setup (outside of the driveline noise from the rear subframe which i will remedy one day). ive driven a low mileage S13 Silvia a friend owns and the suspension slop is just god awful. not sure why youd be ok with that?
For me its the road noise. Most of us are not driving our cars in a manner where the extra 1-2mm of bushing deflection will even be noticeable or be much of a disadvantage. I'm in the process of removing all the poly and heim joints in my s14 for new rubber Nismo bushings.
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Old 08-03-2021, 12:51 PM   #7
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Glad I found this current thread. i'm also looking into the SPC RUCA, Traction arm and toe arm. Rubber is definitely the way to go since I've dealt with polyurethane on my previous S197 mustang and didn't like it.



As of now I'm thinking, Nismo lower control arm and SPC for the rest.
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Old 08-03-2021, 01:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorkidori_s13 View Post
id go with the NISMO hard rubber inserts. i have megan lateral rods and trailing arms on my Protege and honestly, the hard rubber inserts are garbage. id take heim joints over them any day. pretty sure Megan is using cheap rubber in their products.
I don't doubt the Megan's are inferior. I'm just saying that's the only game in town. Febest is the other brand that makes replacement OEM style bushings. Regular Nissan bushings are out of production, leaving only the premium priced Nismo Ones.

I'm sure you know, but for anyone just reading along -

Nismo Rear Knuckle Bushings (6pcs) will set you back $180.
Megan Rear Knuckle Bushings (6pcs) $110.
Febest (6pc) - $70

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorkidori_s13 View Post
and you mentioned above about your dislike using urethane and heim joints from your S13 experience. im curious... what is it about both that you dislike so much? my S13 hatch is currently all heim joints and urethane bushings and i have zero qualms with any of my suspension setup (outside of the driveline noise from the rear subframe which i will remedy one day). ive driven a low mileage S13 Silvia a friend owns and the suspension slop is just god awful. not sure why youd be ok with that?
There is reason every single OEM ever does not use Heim and Polyurethane.

The noise and vibration was terrible. Diff whine, suspension squeak and creak. It also road stiff and I feel Poly slows the knuckles ability to articulate and return to neutral. Overall, that car had every single "Tuner Check Box, Zilvia Approved Race Mod" and was straight up un-enjoyable at the end of it.

The nail in the coffin, that made me sell the car -

At the last drift event I attend, my buddy and I swapped cars for a few laps. His an '89 Coupe, 100% stock except for a RB25 swapped with the boost cranked to 15psi and K-sports.

It absolutely destroyed my S20, top mount, built Hatch in terms of fun and smoothness.

Another great data point I have is from Cobb Tuning. When they purchased a FRS and BRZ for development work, Energy Suspension gave them a complete bushing kit. I forget which car got it, I think the BRZ - but the car became noticeably slower on the track compared to the FRS and significantly less enjoyable to drive on the street.
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Old 08-03-2021, 01:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spooled240 View Post
For me its the road noise. Most of us are not driving our cars in a manner where the extra 1-2mm of bushing deflection will even be noticeable or be much of a disadvantage. I'm in the process of removing all the poly and heim joints in my s14 for new rubber Nismo bushings.
100% Agreed.

I have an amazingly clean R32 and I don't want to screw it up. These cars are great from the factory. 20 years ago I thought the idea of stitch welding towers, reinforcing all the arms, etc was hella-cool. Now I see it as a pointless waste of time and money unless you going full NASCAR with the damn thing.

That 90's chassis flex is part of the charm. Plenty of better options if you're looking for a Rail.
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Old 08-03-2021, 01:24 PM   #10
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Glad I found this current thread. i'm also looking into the SPC RUCA, Traction arm and toe arm. Rubber is definitely the way to go since I've dealt with polyurethane on my previous S197 mustang and didn't like it.

As of now I'm thinking, Nismo lower control arm and SPC for the rest.
You can save money on the Nismo Lowers if you just buy the Nismo Bushings.

Product #
55045-RS580 - $25 each x 4 = $100.

Nissan doesn't make a balljoint, but Moog does.

MOOG K9633 - $12 each x 2 = $24

$125 to refresh your arms.

At the time of posting, Nismo lower arms are $400 for a set.

I'm sure someone will tell me the Nismo arms have some extra bracing.
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Old 08-03-2021, 01:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spooled240 View Post
For me its the road noise. Most of us are not driving our cars in a manner where the extra 1-2mm of bushing deflection will even be noticeable or be much of a disadvantage. I'm in the process of removing all the poly and heim joints in my s14 for new rubber Nismo bushings.
between my Protege5 and my 240sx... my S13 is almost dead quiet on the road. it may have to do with the way the suspension design works, or the tires on my S13 vs Protege, but my Protege is a fucking tin box that has TONS of road noise. my S13 on decent to good pavement/black top is dead silent. you can have conversations in my cabin at normal speaking volume, and thats with full heim jointed and urethane suspension. the ONLY time there is any annoying sound is in 4th gear as it winds down. i get drone from it. got a bit louder when i went with urethane subframe bushings. however, outside of 4th gear wind down, there is very little cabin noise from the road. in 5th gear at 75-85mph, zero exhaust drone, zero driveline noise, very very little road noise (only if going over shitty pavement).

one huge thing i did notice that helped with any road noise was after i replaced my inside hatch weather stripping and the hatch bumpers. it was night and day with sound reduction!

I dunno, i think it may just be properly mixing suspension items with tires, along with good weather stripping to help reduce road noise with aftermarket bits.
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Old 08-03-2021, 01:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbic View Post
I don't doubt the Megan's are inferior. I'm just saying that's the only game in town. Febest is the other brand that makes replacement OEM style bushings. Regular Nissan bushings are out of production, leaving only the premium priced Nismo Ones.
well, go with as many Nissan/NISMO bushings that you can. i had to replace one of my Megan rear trailing arms recently on my Protege. it somehow got bent/smashed upward and there was no point of impact on my chassis to indicate how it bent. when i pulled the arm, the rubber bushing was peeling and flaking off rubber... looked like it was on its last leg TBH. they DO NOT hold up to heat well at all. arm was only 3-4 years old at most (so 3-4 Vegas summers).
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Old 08-03-2021, 02:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorkidori_s13 View Post
well, go with as many Nissan/NISMO bushings that you can. i had to replace one of my Megan rear trailing arms recently on my Protege. it somehow got bent/smashed upward and there was no point of impact on my chassis to indicate how it bent. when i pulled the arm, the rubber bushing was peeling and flaking off rubber... looked like it was on its last leg TBH. they DO NOT hold up to heat well at all. arm was only 3-4 years old at most (so 3-4 Vegas summers).
I'd believe it.

Here is what Febest lists -

Quote:
1 YEAR WARRANTY: All Febest Parts come with a 1 Year Warranty backed by great customer service.
ONLY THE BEST STEEL: Febest only uses the best high-carbon steel. All Febest parts that contain metal use an expensive heat treatment process that improves metal strength and performance, also our parts use a higher level of polish to allow the bearing to roll smoother and last longer.
ONLY THE BEST RUBBER: Each Individual component of this part is made with high quality materials. Unlike our competitors Febest uses only high quality Natural Rubber (75%) and (25%) synthetic Rubber. This means that it is more durable, will last longer, and can handle temperatures from -40 to +140 degrees. The Rubber wont rub off on your hand like the cheap replacement parts offered by competitors
QUALITY IS EVERYTHING: The synthetic lubricant Febest uses is 10x as expensive as our competitors, and lasts 3x as long.
GERMAN QUALITY CONTROL: Febests German quality control experts ensure that all parts are of the utmost quality. We have specially developed metals and rubbers that create a super durable, and long lasting end product.
Doesn't say if its Celsius vs. Fahrenheit.

I'm curious if they are getting these parts made in Malaysia. If that's the case, could be some world class stuff. I ordered a sample to take a look.

https://www.febest.us/arm-bushing-re...bly-nab-242-en
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Old 08-03-2021, 03:13 PM   #14
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You could always go to a non-HICAS rear subframe...

Seems like it would be a lot of effort vs. just going with an adjustable hard rubber toe arm.
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Old 08-03-2021, 04:21 PM   #15
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I looked into SPC for awhile, for the same reasons. I also looked into a lot of quality control issues they have. Some guys get a set, throw them on and never have an issue, and its the complete opposite with others experiences. Because of that, I wound up going with Driftworks, based out of the UK. I went with their poly ended arms, and even that was a decision rooted in compromise. It's not 100% of what I wanted, but it will still allow some comfort compared to a solid heim-joint setup. I have a plan in the back of my mind that if I'm not happy with how the poly is doing, I may find a nismo rubber bushing to fit their ends, and just replace them.

To keep this on topic, it sounds like you'd like to run the nismo units, but are afraid that the HICAS eliminator would not fit up because of poor tolerances, so you've picked the SPC adjustable as a just in case.

From what I've seen, it looks like GK manufactures to a high standard, and don't seem like the kind of company that would sell/ship out a product that didn't meet their specs. Personally, I'd go with the nismo units, you know they'll be in factory tolerances, and will be reliable for years. If you try to install them, and something isn't fitting, you're not left guess which aftermarket part is causing the issue, you know it will be the GK product.

I would also suggest contacting GKtech, telling them what you plan to do, and ask if you should expect any problems. You may get a copy and paste answer giving you no answer, or you may get what you're looking for.
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Old 08-03-2021, 04:38 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbic View Post
Ideally, I'd like to keep it all factory and OEM - however I am concerned about the tolerances of the GK-kit and being able to properly adjust the rear-toe. I don't recall if the the traction arms on a stock Nissan used the camber bolts or not. There is no provision on the GK unit.
so after several posts here's the answer you want:

1) page RA-6 of the FSM tells you that yes, the factory rear toe arms have an adjustment eccentric bolt.
2) every HICAS eliminator kit out there is a simple bar with holes for a bolt and wide enough to mount it with any rear toe arm that is a factory replacement unit. So the short answer is, yes it will be fine. I don't recall people having magical sideways, unadjustable rear toe settings with other brands of HICAS delete bars.

and yes, Nismo S14 arms have both OE replacement as well as reinforced versions. but like I said in your previous thread about "Nismo parts... a scam?", if you're trying to price justify Nismo arms vs bushings/ball joint replacement on your stock arms (or any used arms), it's apples vs oranges.

it's like trying to justify finding used, perfect condition metal fenders from a junkyard or another car to put on your car, vs buying brand new OEM metal fenders. everyone will have their own justification for the pricing, no need to price compare to this level. Plus, some people out there simply don't have access to a press or the tools needed to do some types of installs, or even have the time.
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Old 08-03-2021, 04:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burnsauto View Post
To keep this on topic, it sounds like you'd like to run the nismo units, but are afraid that the HICAS eliminator would not fit up because of poor tolerances, so you've picked the SPC adjustable as a just in case.

From what I've seen, it looks like GK manufactures to a high standard, and don't seem like the kind of company that would sell/ship out a product that didn't meet their specs. Personally, I'd go with the nismo units, you know they'll be in factory tolerances, and will be reliable for years. If you try to install them, and something isn't fitting, you're not left guess which aftermarket part is causing the issue, you know it will be the GK product.
The Nismo toe arms use the factory eccentric bolts for adjustment. The GKTech HICAS eliminator doesn't facilitate the use of the factory eccentric bolts (thus the adjustable arms).

Quote:
Originally Posted by burnsauto View Post
I would also suggest contacting GKtech, telling them what you plan to do, and ask if you should expect any problems. You may get a copy and paste answer giving you no answer, or you may get what you're looking for.
He did. The problem is not the tolerances, but the lack of any adjustment with the Nismo toe arms.

*Edit: mav1178 beat me to it.

Also, looks like Hardrace makes an adjustable hard rubber rear toe arm as well: https://hardraceusa.com/products/240...ubber-2pcs-set


Quote:
Originally Posted by mav1178 View Post
so after several posts here's the answer you want:

1) page RA-6 of the FSM tells you that yes, the factory rear toe arms have an adjustment eccentric bolt.
2) every HICAS eliminator kit out there is a simple bar with holes for a bolt and wide enough to mount it with any rear toe arm that is a factory replacement unit. So the short answer is, yes it will be fine. I don't recall people having magical sideways, unadjustable rear toe settings with other brands of HICAS delete bars.
The mounting hole on a non-HICAS subframe is elongated for adjustment. There isn't enough elongation in HICAS delete kits to use a eccentric bolt.

You can see what I'm talking about in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjCSSC8D25I
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Old 08-03-2021, 05:03 PM   #18
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The Nismo toe arms use the factory eccentric bolts for adjustment. The GKTech HICAS eliminator doesn't facilitate the use of the factory eccentric bolts (thus the adjustable arms).

He did. The problem is not the tolerances, but the lack of any adjustment with the Nismo toe arms.

Bingo.


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Originally Posted by BryanSayWhat View Post
Also, looks like Hardrace makes an adjustable hard rubber rear toe arm as well: https://hardraceusa.com/products/240...ubber-2pcs-set[/B]
I wonder if that's the same thing as Truhart.



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Old 08-03-2021, 05:19 PM   #19
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I wonder if that's the same thing as Truhart.
Quick google search shows that Hardrace, Truhart and Megan are all likely the same. Nice catch.
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Old 08-03-2021, 05:21 PM   #20
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Quick google search shows that Hardrace, Truhart and Megan are all likely the same. Nice catch.
Just about to say, looking at their catalog of arms, bushings, and parts - it's Aussie branded Megan.
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Old 08-03-2021, 05:33 PM   #21
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Sooo...

Here is an idea.

Since the HardRace, TruHart and Megan are all the same Arms - HR being offered in both Rubber and Spherical, TruHart only in Rubber and Megan in Spherical...

I'm banking the bushing used in the Rubber versions is just the Control Arm bushing Megan sells and maybe interchangeable with a Nismo Bushing.

Might be worth a shot.
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Old 08-03-2021, 05:54 PM   #22
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Could be.

Also, I see GKTech has a HICAS lock bar that uses the factory HICAS arms. Did you not want to go that route, because of the factory ball joints?
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Old 08-03-2021, 06:06 PM   #23
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I installed a S14 subframe in my R32 so whatever you have going on sounds wack. I will tell you this though: you've been here long enough to know Megan is fucking ass AIDS. If you're trying to do something correctly, SPL. If you're trying to do it correctly but save a few bucks, NISMO. If you want to be even cheaper and spend money to waste your time, NISMO inserts.
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Old 08-03-2021, 06:21 PM   #24
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The Nismo toe arms use the factory eccentric bolts for adjustment. The GKTech HICAS eliminator doesn't facilitate the use of the factory eccentric bolts (thus the adjustable arms).
Correct.... but the GKTech rear arms (that work with their HICAS eliminator rear arm) works with both factory rear subframe as well as the HICAS eliminator kit.

So by conventional wisdom, wouldn't the bushing end of the arm be the same width as the S13/R32 rear subframe opening for non-HICAS toe arms?

That's what I was getting at. Eccentric bolt or not, it still offers adjustment on the arm.

OP asked about whether factory has toe adjustment or not, I answered him by pointing out the page in the FSM. Only real solution for the problem is one of the rubber bushing adjustable rear arms, or swap the subframe.

I really just wish he was clearer in his original post.
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Old 08-03-2021, 07:10 PM   #25
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Correct.... but the GKTech rear arms (that work with their HICAS eliminator rear arm) works with both factory rear subframe as well as the HICAS eliminator kit.

So by conventional wisdom, wouldn't the bushing end of the arm be the same width as the S13/R32 rear subframe opening for non-HICAS toe arms?

That's what I was getting at. Eccentric bolt or not, it still offers adjustment on the arm.
That's because you just bolt them onto the factory sub-frame, don't care where the camber-bolt aligns, you just adjust the arm it's self.
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OP asked about whether factory has toe adjustment or not, I answered him by pointing out the page in the FSM. Only real solution for the problem is one of the rubber bushing adjustable rear arms, or swap the subframe.
Correct
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Old 08-03-2021, 07:32 PM   #26
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I installed a S14 subframe in my R32 so whatever you have going on sounds wack. I will tell you this though: you've been here long enough to know Megan is fucking ass AIDS. If you're trying to do something correctly, SPL. If you're trying to do it correctly but save a few bucks, NISMO. If you want to be even cheaper and spend money to waste your time, NISMO inserts.
S14 Subframe?

I thought everyone was going back to the S13 setup these days.
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Old 08-03-2021, 08:33 PM   #27
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That's because you just bolt them onto the factory sub-frame, don't care where the camber-bolt aligns, you just adjust the arm it's self.
Since you brought up the super cheap way of doing things, just get Nismo bushings, cut your stock arms in half, box them, and weld in an adjuster bolt/stud yourself.

Easy.
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:28 PM   #28
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The GKTech HICAS lock bar would be the way to go if he wanted to use the stock arms:
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:53 PM   #29
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Since you brought up the super cheap way of doing things, just get Nismo bushings, cut your stock arms in half, box them, and weld in an adjuster bolt/stud yourself.

Easy.
I have seen guys do that.
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:54 PM   #30
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The GKTech HICAS lock bar would be the way to go if he wanted to use the stock arms:
Ball joints are toast and are the tie rods. So if I'm replacing that, why stick with that garbage.
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