RWD SR20VE musings

[Matej]

Hello,
This is something I have been curious about.
I know putting the SR20VE head on an RWD block requires tapping the head for the VVL feed line and swapping the oil pump and cover, which in turn necessitates a crank pulley spacer and a modded oil strainer, among other such tidbits.
To my understanding, most if not all of this is done to supply sufficient oil feed/pressure for the VVL system.

What I have been trying to find out is, which of those steps could be omitted if the solenoids and any removable part of the VVL system gets deleted?
What mods to the block/head would still be required to just run the head without the VVL?

I know that may sound blasphemous to many, especially since the VVL is a big part of the SR20VE, but it would still be great to take advantage of the better-flowing head, plus one would not have to deal with relocating, wiring, and activating the solenoids.

Is this even feasible?

Zilvia really needs a dedicated RWD SR20VE thread.

[jr_ss]

Your point is mute, with not using the VVL. The reason the head flows so well is because it has variable lift. You may be able to find a VVL killer and lock it on the high lobes, but then youll have to low end response.

You don't have to tap the block. You can use a tee where your oil pressure sensor is and feed the relocation blocks that way. Regardless, I think just swapping the "better" flowing head on will be pointless. As stated you'll need a VVL killer kit or custom cams to take full advantage of the head.

[Matej]

That is good information, thank you.

So basically the people who do not wire up the solenoids are not using the head to its potential, correct? I have seen a few RWD VE builds like that online, although many people building them do not seem to be experts either, so it has been difficult figuring out what is fact and what is hearsay.

[bardabe]

I had a theory for a customer who wanted that, there is a way to make it work without the solenoids, however all the modification to the pick up, oil pan and pump still have to get done. you would have to lock the rocker rails in the high lobe all the time. which in turn will run into a really loapy idle, and terrible low end driveability, but you still keep the benefit of the high rpm and flow capacity. however like i said it was a theory i never put it in practice.

[Matej]

Another idea that I have been pondering is using the complete SR20VE and just turning it sideways.

Apparently the RWD SR upper and lower oil pan fits, which in turn also makes all the bottom bell housing bolts line up.
Project Datto - racetech's 1200 SR20VE Project - CARforums.co.za

This was what I originally intended to do, and I have the clutch, starter, bell housing, and motor mount brackets figured out as well. However, I have been told that FWD motors have oil drains in the middle of the block which apparently would be bad, so it put a damper on my plans, although I have not been able to find pictures of how different it is on the FWD vs. RWD SR block.

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by Matej

Another idea that I have been pondering is using the complete SR20VE and just turning it sideways.

Apparently the RWD SR upper and lower oil pan fits, which in turn also makes all the bottom bell housing bolts line up.
Project Datto - racetech's 1200 SR20VE Project - CARforums.co.za

This was what I originally intended to do, and I have the clutch, starter, bell housing, and motor mount brackets figured out as well. However, I have been told that FWD motors have oil drains in the middle of the block which apparently would be bad, so it put a damper on my plans, although I have not been able to find pictures of how different it is on the FWD vs. RWD SR block.

You could do that but take note that the VE has weaker rods than the DET, just like the DE motors. VE motors dont like high hp running through its NA blood. They have thinner top ringlands and will pop at lower power levels than the DET. You'll also be using a distributor setup unless you convert to a crank angle sensor or hall effect sensor. There are some other small differences as well, but negligible. You'll still need the relocation plates because the solenoid block will not fit between the head and firewall/bulkhead. Either way you look at it you have work to do. You're best bet is to just slap a VE head on to the DET block.

As stated, you could custom make a VVL killer, which locks the rockers to use the high lobe, but you'll have no low end power at all.

[Matej]

My plan is actually to just keep it NA and reliable (hopefully), basically like a newer and better KA.
Possibly with the SR16VE N1 cams.

I would like to try and run it off the stock VE ECU, especially since I will most likely retain the distributor and just cut an opening for it in the firewall.
If I end up putting the head on an RWD block, I have been researching the possibility of running it off an S15 distributor and ECU.

Do you gentlemen experience any oil starvation at the sump/over-flooding at the top? I ask since the rear oil drain on the block gets plugged. Do you make a custom rear drain?

[jr_ss]

If you plan on keeping it NA then of course you are better off swapping a VE long block in. People have run them with the DETs coil/plug design, just need a trigger wheel. Obviously you'll also need a programmable ECU. I have also read about guys keeping the dizzy setup and using the fwd ecus. Then they run an external rpm based switch to activate the VVL and then tuning it from there. Personally, I don't see why you would stay NA after doing all the work for a measly 220-250ish whp with no torque, but my opinion is biased.

[b14 se-rious]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

Your point is mute, with not using the VVL. The reason the head flows so well is because it has variable lift. .

This is FALSE

Have you looked at the size of the VVL ports next to a DE. The VVL has little to do with how well the head flows.

A VE head flows nearly double CFM what a DE head flows at the same lift.

Kelford makes a killer cam for VVL that was designed by Mazworx. Mazworx has stated they have a car that holds a nice steady idle on a high lobe with killer cams.

Its because of threads like this that terrible information spreads around.

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by b14 se-rious

This is FALSE

Have you looked at the size of the VVL ports next to a DE. The VVL has little to do with how well the head flows.

A VE head flows nearly double CFM what a DE head flows at the same lift.

Kelford makes a killer cam for VVL that was designed by Mazworx. Mazworx has stated they have a car that holds a nice steady idle on a high lobe with killer cams.

Its because of threads like this that terrible information spreads around.

Coming from the guy that thinks he can run N1 cams on a stock DET bottomend, yet has no clue that P11 cams are the highest lift/duration cams you can run without valve reliefs.

Port size, valve job, valve size, shrouded vs unshrouded, valve lift, stem size, etc, etc all play a major role in how well a head flows, not just port size, nor valve lift. The exhaust port on the VE is exactly the same size as the DET's, what goes in must come out. Your point is mute.

VE heads do not flow nearly double at the same lift either, I have personally flow benched my head. At .450 of lift, they(VE heads) flow 70cfm more on the intake and 82cfm more on the exhaust than an S13 high port head, which if you know anything about SR heads, is the best flowing of the two DET/DE designs. If you think that a VE flows nearly 400cfm from the factory(which would be double of a highport head) you're fucking high. They do flow a lot more CFM's but double is an over statement.

If anyone is spewing shit into the atmosphere, it's your mouth.

[b14 se-rious]

"The stock sr20det head flows 188.3 @ .300 lift a fully ported sr20det head flows 253.6 @ .300. A stock VE head flows 329 @ .300. "

Another person I know has flow benched it with similiar results.

Edit: Btw, very nice build

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by b14 se-rious

"The stock sr20det head flows 188.3 @ .300 lift a fully ported sr20det head flows 253.6 @ .300. A stock VE head flows 329 @ .300. "

Another person I know has flow benched it with similiar results.

Edit: Btw, very nice build

Not sure where you're getting your numbers, but those look more like ported VE head numbers than a stock untouched head. Especially, because .300 is 7.62mm of lift, which is less than max lift on the P11 low cam lobes. Those numbers above make it hard to believe and seem more like forum gibber jabber rather than actual test numbers. FYI, P11 cams are 8mm and 10.4mm of lift low/high.

Here is where I've gotten my VE head flow data and what my head actually flows supports those numbers found in the tests below. There is a lot of good head flow information in that thread, however, those claims of 300+CFMs are rubbish.

headflow data??? - Page 2 - SR20 Forum

[Matej]

How much room is there between the head and firewall when the head is on the RWD block?

Since I plan to just turn the entire motor sideways and the mount brackets will need to be modded anyway, I would like to see if I could move the motor forward a bit in order to fit the stock distributor in front of the firewall.
Initially I planned to cut out a chunk of the firewall behind the head and box it in, but if I could get away with only hammering it, that would be nice. And if the giant P11 distributor fits, then the solenoids will as well.

[jr_ss]

It's a bolt in affair, not sure why you would want to shift the motor forward just to accomodate the distributor/VVL solenoid block. Acquire RWD DET motor mounts and they should bolt on to the VE block.

I have stock DET clearances between firewall and head now with my block off plate bolted in. I'll have to measure for you later today...

[Matej]

From looking at pictures of the block, my assumption was that on the exhaust side it is missing a couple of the threaded holes that the mount brackets would bolt into on an RWD block. Perhaps I am getting ahead of myself, since my VE motor set has not even arrived yet.

And measurements would be great. You have been of big help, thank you sir.

[jr_ss]

I'm almost certain the the blocks are nearly identical. If that is the case, it may be as simple as drilling/tapping those bosses to accept the RWD engine mounts.

I'll get those measurements when I get home for you. Anything else you want measured while I'm at it? What chassis are you putting this in?

[Matej]

It is going in an S13.
Already got the flywheel/clutch and bell housing figured out, at least in theory.

Since I will be using my RWD upper and lower oil pans, should I also use the RWD strainer? Is the strainer a direct swap?

I want to try to use the stock VE ECU and engine harness, so the wiring will be the main obstacle. It seems people have gotten the RWD DE ECU to work with FWD DE's and vice versa, and people have used the VE ECU with FWD VE swaps, thus I am hoping it will be doable.

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by Matej

It is going in an S13.
Already got the flywheel/clutch and bell housing figured out, at least in theory.

Since I will be using my RWD upper and lower oil pans, should I also use the RWD strainer? Is the strainer a direct swap?

I want to try to use the stock VE ECU and engine harness, so the wiring will be the main obstacle. It seems people have gotten the RWD DE ECU to work with FWD DE's and vice versa, and people have used the VE ECU with FWD VE swaps, thus I am hoping it will be doable.

Clearance between MY S14 bulkhead and the head is 1-1.25" depending on where you measure. I also have a Mazworx Z32 transmission kit, which may pull the motor slightly farther back and pivot the engine/trans differently than the stock pieces. I'm rocking Nismo mounts as well.

Keep the VVL strainer, it is actually larger than the S14/S15 strainer. There is more oil volume demand in the VE motor to supply the VVL hydraulics, another reason the oil pump is larger.

I think the most common ECU setup is using the DE ECU and engine harness on the VE motors and just use an rpm based switch to control the VVL. Then they get the DE ECU tuned for the VE setup. The VE ECU may plug directly into the DE harness and you'll just need the switch to control VVL, but I haven't looked into the FWD version of the swap much.

The P11 motors use two solenoids because the switch over points are different for the exhaust and intake cams. On the P12 motors they switched both cams over at the same time. You can simplify the P11 setup and use one solenoid to switch both cams at the same time if you want. However, I think being able to find/tune the "best" switch over points for your setup is a better option, this setup however needs both solenoids and two rpm switches.

Let me know if you need anything else.

[Matej]

Thank you!
What did you do for your exhaust manifold? Are you using a DET one, or custom?

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by Matej

Thank you!
What did you do for your exhaust manifold? Are you using a DET one, or custom?

I had a top mount setup on my S14 SR before I went this route, so I just elongated the stud hole in that manifold. You can order manifolds with the VE flange though. The VE exhaust ports are the same diameter and have the same centerlines as the DE/DET heads and the bolt pattern is identical. However, the ports are just about .125" higher on the head bolt pattern which means that the manifold would hang down in the exhaust ports discharge if the holes weren't elongated on a DE/DET mani. When I bolted my manifold on, I used a borescope to make sure that the flange wasnt hanging down in the ports discharge.

[Matej]

Is there any place to purchase the VE exhaust flange? My plan is to use a generic KA header with a VE flange, but finding one seems to be harder than I thought it would be.

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by Matej

Is there any place to purchase the VE exhaust flange? My plan is to use a generic KA header with a VE flange, but finding one seems to be harder than I thought it would be.

SR20DET/VE - Fabrication Materials - Mazworx

I would imagine any place that fabricates manifolds would be more than willing to cut/sell you a flange.

If you're going to stay NA, I would see if you could get your hands on a Fujitsubo NA SR header. I personally think they are better designed than these KA turds on the market.

[S14DB]

If you are going to get a generic header. Get a SR20DE one and slot the bolt holes to align the flange properly.

[Matej]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

SR20DET/VE - Fabrication Materials - Mazworx

Oops, thank you. Guess I should have actually used the menu instead of just the search box. I will ask them if they could sell me one that already has the holes drilled specifically for the VE.

I did look into SR20DE headers, and the Fujitsubo one is actually what my first choice would be. However, most of the SR headers I found are upwards of 400$ for beat up rusted ones, so unless I find one in good shape by then, a KA header will probably be a more convenient route.


P.S.
Just found out that none of the nice SR20DE headers clear the LHD steering column. Bummer.

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by Matej

P.S.
Just found out that none of the nice SR20DE headers clear the LHD steering column. Bummer.

That does bite, however I think I'd try to still acquire one and see what all has to be modified. Personally, I'd rather use something of higher quality to make or modify to work, than run a junk one that fits.

[Matej]

Perhaps the runners could be shortened at the top, to bring it closer to the motor.
The more I look at it, the more I want to get it and make it work.

[jr_ss]

It does look pretty sweet... I was thinking it was longer than that, I.e. bolted to test pipe not factory dp.

Create an account on rinkya.com, it's a Japanese yahoo auction. I use to use it a few years ago, but a buddy screwed it up for me. They always had parts on there especially cars being parted, just a thought.

[Matej]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

It does look pretty sweet... I was thinking it was longer than that, I.e. bolted to test pipe not factory dp.

It can be used with any SR turbo downpipe. I suppose if I happen to scrape or dent a generic downpipe I can just replace it and not despair as I would if it was a one-piece design.

There is one for sale right now tempting me. Although I have seen them go for less in the past, and with both pieces included.
¡¡£Ó15¡¡¥·¥ë¥Ó¥¢¡¡SR20DENA¡¡¥ª ¡¼¥Æ¥Ã¥¯¡¡¥¹¥Æ¥ó¥Þ¥Ë¥Û¡¼¥ ë¥É - Yahoo!¥ª¡¼¥¯¥·¥ç¥ó

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by Matej

It can be used with any SR turbo downpipe. I suppose if I happen to scrape or dent a generic downpipe I can just replace it and not despair as I would if it was a one-piece design.

There is one for sale right now tempting me. Although I have seen them go for less in the past, and with both pieces included.
¡¡£Ó15¡¡¥·¥ë¥Ó¥¢¡¡SR20DENA¡¡¥ª ¡¼¥Æ¥Ã¥¯¡¡¥¹¥Æ¥ó¥Þ¥Ë¥Û¡¼¥ ë¥É - Yahoo!¥ª¡¼¥¯¥·¥ç¥ó

That one looks like the flange is up higher and at a different angle than the one above. I can't view it translated on my phone, so I'll check it out later for details. I'll also see if I can't find something of interest and send it your way. If you're going to do it, no reason to make it half-assed...

[Matej]

Bump.
Would it be a bad idea to run a clutch fan on the VE water pump?
I was planning on doing so (with a fan clutch re-drilled to the FWD pattern, or I believe a CA18 fan clutch fits directly), however, since then I have read that running a clutch fan on a water pump not designed for the extra load wears out the pump very quickly.