JWT vs Enthalpy ECU comparison dyno results!! *Another* 400 whp CodyAce Built Car

[codyace]

JWT vs Enthalpy ECU comparison dyno results!! Another 400 whp CodyAce Built Car

Finally managed to get my buddies car on the dyno today. While we were
interested in the power it made, we also both finally wanted to see a direct comparison between the two major ECU Rom Tuners that support our SR20 cars, Jim Wolf Technolgy and RS Enthalpy. We have been running the car on both without ANY issue. Both get great MPG, both the tires off in 2nd gear, and both function just as OEM. Dont get me wrong, Standalones are cool and functional, but at the end of the day this is a Street Car -- and gets street parts.

Now before this turns into a mud slinging contest, it is not what I set this out to be. Enthalpy and JWT are BOTH top notch tuners, and both are two excellent sources for out of the box, turn key tunes that make kickass power while remaining livable and economical. I would hesistate for a MOMENT to suggest either of them, as I personally have had great results with both companies.

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMuyXATr0Cc

Log and Run files (Thank you SoapGun!) http://driftwolrd.com/r/dynoandlogfiles.zip

Car Specs:
HP: 403 WHP
Torque: 323 Ft Lbs

Engine Specs:
SR20DET, 8.5:1 Compression, 86mm (stock bore/compression)
Built bottom end with CP Pistons, Stock Rods, Built by Cody Ace)
GT2871r .64 (T2 exhaust housing)
Jim Wolf Technology S3 Cams
Jim Wolf Technology ECU
Freddy Intake Manifold
Extrude Hone and Swained Exhaust Manifold, and Turbo
External Wastegate
3" exhaust
3" Inlet with Z32 MAF
72lb MSD's
(and all other associated parts)
Traps 120mph as well

I backed the car on, I got the computer ready to log, and we unlocked the brake. Ran the Enthalpy ECU at 10 psi, and then at 20 psi. Turned it off. Changed ECU's. And ran it again. Same conditions. The results are close, but it's evident that in this particular case the JWT ecu wins. Dyno RUn Files available upon PM, as well as Log Files from Datascan.

Results:

20psi
AFR: 11.8 to 12.0
Enthalpy: 381 HP / 310 Ft lbs
JWT: 400 HP/323 ft lbs

10psi:
AFR: 12.5ish for both
Enthalpy: 274 HP / 220 ft lbs
JWT: 279 HP/223 ft lbs

It's evident that at 10 psi, the differences are negligable, probably credited to the dyno itself. The results remain the same across all correction factors as well, but we like uncorrected to give a base number. STD showed the highest figures.

At 20 psi however, we were really surprised. The JWT ECU made nearly 20 more hp peak, and had a stronger powerband throughot. We were VERY happy with this. It's a damn near copy of my s14's setup (minus a few parts) and (go figure) the car makes similar power.

Graphs:
10 psi run on top, 20 psi run on bottom (Enthalpy Blue, JWT Red)

10psi


20psi




"Not bad" for a Junkyard Car

I'm not sure about you guys, but this car certainly doesn't look like its' got anymore than abotu 100 whp lol. I love it.






All in all, it was a nice day...one, because yet again I've got a 2871r car that I built at 400 whp level, and secondly, we finally got to test both of our ECU's out to see which one worked best right out of the box. Now with this said, I would love to send Martin and Clark the log files respectively to get a 'net reflash' to compare them again, as it would be interesting to see what there is 'left' in both tunes. We all can agree that an off the shelf tune from either is going to be conservative, just for safety sake...nobody wants the reputation of making HP, but melting pistons ya know?

FWIW: JWT S3 cams are the single best cams you can buy for T2/stock manifold cars. Most power, best graphs, and cheapest (as you don't need valvesprings). I don't care what anyone says, until I get a car that dynos differently, I'm going to stick by my guns.


As before, Dyno Run files and NissanDataScan Run files available via PM.

[rican_nick]

Good work man.

I also love my S3's.. I'm running a 50trim t3/to4e.. havent had it on the dyno but the diff before and after the cams felt noticeable on the butt dyno

[jspaeth]

I am really interested to see what a better car can due to my car Cody.

My torque curve is beautiful, and similar in shape, but I only make like 285-290 ft-lbs of torque...same shape though.

Steve has looked at my timing map and says there is much room for improvement.

Furthermore, my AFR under full boost is 10.0-10.5!!!!!!!!!!

That has GOT to be hurting me, right?


Results are very nice!


Was the Enthalpy tune made with before-the-fact knowledge that there would be JWT S3 cams in the car? I would hope so, as that would make the comparison the most fair............

[codyace]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

Furthermore, my AFR under full boost is 10.0-10.5!!!!!!!!!!

That is very rich. Usually moving a 10.5 car up to the 11.5 range will net in good torque gains, and probably 15 hp.

Originally Posted by jspaeth

Was the Enthalpy tune made with before-the-fact knowledge that there would be JWT S3 cams in the car? I would hope so, as that would make the comparison the most fair............

The Enthalpy ECU was actually tuned for the car, and the cams

The JWT ECU has not received the cam program yet -- however the JWT 'cam program' is typically for idle stabilization for cars that need it. With his light flywheel and the cams, it will be ordered soon

[negrosx13]

very interesting knowledge about these 2 programs...good shit man!!!

[lflkajfj12123]

very cool

i can host those files for you if you want

these cars must be a blast to drive

[mattsil80wis]

Originally Posted by s0apgun

very cool

i can host those files for you if you want

these cars must be a blast to drive

the 240 pictured is mine

they are def a blast to drive especially when 636's cant get away from you haha

EDIT: here is the video from the dyno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMuyXATr0Cc

[4x4le]

Smoothing on 5? I hate that so bad when comparisons or check out my tune threads have the dyno graph smoothed out the ass. However I am very pleased to hear you hit 400whp with a .64 2871r! Once again, very do able to all the people that stand against that.

Now, back to the smoothing....... Look how rough the jwt tune is compared to the Enthalpy tune. Those dips at near and right before the peak tq area are not good. The Enthalpy tune does not have that, not to mention that the enthaply tune beats the jwt tune out at 10psi even without the shakey-ness. Where you peaked on the jwt tune at 10 psi is in the area where the spark was not reconised and it caused an error condition on the dyno, you see where the breaks are on the graph? That could have been blow out or a miss fire. Probably fault of the car, not the tune.

The jwt tune starts looking great at about 5300 rpms at 20psi and about 6300rpm at 10 psi.

If I were you I would take the Enthalpy tune and compliment it with the timing values of the jwt tune in the areas that it beats it out up high. The 20psi run on the jwt ecu really impresses me because before I got into tuning I had blown an sr up on a jwt tune and it didnt look any where near that good on a .86 2871r and a very similar sr setup. It does not look like they have improved much on their lower psi tune though.

All in all, these are much better results than I expected to see from either of these tuners considering neither of them have actually ever seen your car. I am most impressed with the Enthalpy because it is so smooth I would believe that someone did a custom tune on your car if you were to have not disclosed that it was a commercial tune. It is apparent how much safer that tune is for your engine as well.

Thumbs up for doing this!

[codyace]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Smoothing on 5? I hate that so bad when comparisons or check out my tune threads have the dyno graph smoothed out the ass. However I am very pleased to hear you hit 400whp with a .64 2871r! Once again, very do able to all the people that stand against that.

Smoothing at zero for you (5 is default, I hate 0 for doing quick comparisons at at 0 you can 'jumps' that can produce false higher HP numbers. I've dynoed over 200 cars, and 5 seems to be consistant.

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Now, back to the smoothing....... Look how rough the jwt tune is compared to the Enthalpy tune. Those dips at near and right before the peak tq area are not good. The Enthalpy tune does not have that,

Care to circle what you mean here? I don't mean to sound dumb here, but I really am unsure what you see here (aka: I'd liek to learn) IMO some of the 'fluttery-ness' is due to the wastgate, not the tune. You should see big power Supra graphs...combined with what you can hear is amazing with the gate opening/closing.

Originally Posted by 4x4le

not to mention that the enthaply tune beats the jwt tune out at 10psi even without the shakey-ness. Where you peaked on the jwt tune at 10 psi is in the area where the spark was not reconised and it caused an error condition on the dyno, you see where the breaks are on the graph? That could have been blow out or a miss fire. Probably fault of the car, not the tune.

Again, the difference at 10 psi IMO is related to the dyno, and not the tune at all. I can change correction factors to show you this (I can email you the run files, you just need Winpep7 which is free). I can also send you the 5 dyno day's we've run to compare across 3 power pulls. Anything in the 5hp range of difference is 9/10 the dyno itself, not so much the car.

Lets also not forget the differences in where I started the pull (1000 rpm difference, I forgot)...this can easily effect the 'low end' as youv'e got the turbo lit already. You should see me stab turbo hondas at 2k...it's amazing to see how crappy they are under Vtec...gross! I guess it's part of the game though right?

(And yes, I know about the spark pickup issue, unsure what that occured on the run...I just looked over all of my graphs and other sr20 and never saw it. Musta been a fluke)

Originally Posted by 4x4le

If I were you I would take the Enthalpy tune and compliment it with the timing values of the jwt tune in the areas that it beats it out up high. The 20psi run on the jwt ecu really impresses me because before I got into tuning I had blown an sr up on a jwt tune and it didnt look any where near that good on a .86 2871r and a very similar sr setup. It does not look like they have improved much on their lower psi tune though.

All in all, these are much better results than I expected to see from either of these tuners considering neither of them have actually ever seen your car. I am most impressed with the Enthalpy because it is so smooth I would believe that someone did a custom tune on your car if you were to have not disclosed that it was a commercial tune. It is apparent how much safer that tune is for your engine as well.

Thumbs up for doing this!

As copied form another forum

"In the end of the day, both Enthalpy and JWT are fantastic companies. My point was not so much to show the difference (as I never would have epected such a difference at 20psi) but to show how close they really are in regard to tunes. I love the fact that these two companies support our community with bad ass parts for the 'street crew'."

Also remember that these cars are not 'tuned' for any specific PSI -they are MAF cars, so both are going to scale according to airflow. I always tell others to 'tell JWT/Enthalpy to 'tune' at highest boost' as the rest just falls into place.

I just am shocked at how close they really are. Again I need to get my ass in gear and get new chips for both and test them again, should be bad ass!

[codyace]

JWT VIDEO: YouTube - 4-17-10 matt 240sx sr20 gt2871rs powered dyno

[4x4le]

Im posting from my phone so i cant address everything but thanks for posting that with 0 smoothing. To me it really made the jwt look better than it did on 5

[HemiCharger]

add an Apexi Power FC to this and check the results again?

[spooled240]

nice! I have a JWT ecu for my ka-t and it's been fantastic for the past 3 years of daily driving, I have absolutely no problems and I get pretty good mileage..i'd say the same as stock if not better

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

add an Apexi Power FC to this and check the results again?

This wouldn't really provide any insight....

This a power-pull, so all that matters is effective timing and injector on-times, so you could set up a PowerFC to give the same results as either of the above by just using the same timing and fuel maps.

One of the benefits (IIRC) of these ROM tunes over PFC is that you can explicitly control some of the IACV stuff that you cannot with the PFC....makes a big difference on getting a smooth stable idle if you have big-ish cams.....

[codyace]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Im posting from my phone so i cant address everything but thanks for posting that with 0 smoothing. To me it really made the jwt look better than it did on 5

Hehe, I can understand 100% the phone issue. Someday those companies will get a hang of the forum world right hehe. I've almost given up posting from my phone, may as well send it snail mail hehe.

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

add an Apexi Power FC to this and check the results again?

Could it make more power? Sure - but not because of the Power FC, more because of the tune.

FWIW: I've yet to see a FC car with this turbo making this sort of power (now on another build altogether).

Don't get me wrong, PFC is a nice tool, and great for those that want to tune themselves/fiddle with their car...but I'll stick to ROM tunes from either JWT or Enthalpy for street cars. You simply can't beat them in regard to price, performance, and drivability.

Originally Posted by spooled240

nice! I have a JWT ecu for my ka-t and it's been fantastic for the past 3 years of daily driving, I have absolutely no problems and I get pretty good mileage..i'd say the same as stock if not better

Awesome to hear man! I'm a Wolf guy through and through, but as before, the cars I've dealt with that have had Secret Service/Enthalpy ECU's drive/work/perform equally well. I'd go as far as to say that you can't go wrong either




I'll be PM'ing 'SoapGun' here in a second to host the Log and Run files

[HemiCharger]

True on the idle issue and I would have gone JWT had I not found a Power FC for like 800 bucks delivered. I think now they run in the 1200-1300 dollar range. I have never had any problems with it so far. I can get around 25 mpg and have it tuned conservatively for 400 crank horse power. I just wish the sr transmission was as good as the engines then they would be the BOMB even more.

Oh yeah and the wand monitors all kinds of cool stuff like air flow, knock, rpm speed etc and etc a nice tool to have when running hard.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by codyace

FWIW: I've yet to see a FC car with this turbo making this sort of power (now on another build altogether).

Don't get me wrong, PFC is a nice tool, and great for those that want to tune themselves/fiddle with their car...but I'll stick to ROM tunes from either JWT or Enthalpy for street cars. You simply can't beat them in regard to price, performance, and drivability.

To be fair, though, Cody, can you find another PFC user with the same setup (same cams, extrude honed/swained mani and turbine housing)?

Clearly, the standalone can do anything (and more) than the ROM tune can do, if put in the right hands.

You could literally put the Enthalpy or JWT tune onto the PFC and see the same results.

Plus you have the added benefit of being able to fine tune even further upon making small modifications, or changes in temperature, or etc etc etc.

Needless to say, I think the biggest difference in why all of your cars put down that extra 20-30 ft-lbs between 4500-7000 and the resulting increase in horsepower is due to

1) The swaining/extrude honing
2) Having a tune done by an expert with a LOT of research done into the timing/fuel for this particular setup.

I am making a similar torque curve as these cars, minus about 20-30 ft-lbs across the board.

I believe this is because:

1) Need better boost control to hold boost up top
2) Timing is NOWHERE near optimized (tuner didn't do ANY steady-state timing optimization)
3) AFRs once in boost are VERY rich (10-10.5).


I am not saying it is EASY or CHEAP to have that setup, but I just don't think that the "big secret" is in the ROM tune.

That ROM tune surely has seen multiple iterations (at least on your car) of datalogging and refinement to get a timing/fuel map that works so well with your cams/setup

[lflkajfj12123]

CodyAce Dyno Run and NissanDataScan Run Files - Click Here for direct download!

[codyace]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

True on the idle issue and I would have gone JWT had I not found a Power FC for like 800 bucks delivered. I think now they run in the 1200-1300 dollar range. I have never had any problems with it so far. I can get around 25 mpg and have it tuned conservatively for 400 crank horse power. I just wish the sr transmission was as good as the engines then they would be the BOMB even more.

That's a good deal for sure, but remember we're all making 400 to the rear tire That's a big difference for sure.

And I can totally hear ya - I too wish the transmissions were better. Not so bad for daily/street driving, but even on track cars it's very hard on them.

Originally Posted by jspaeth

To be fair, though, Cody, can you find another PFC user with the same setup (same cams, extrude honed/swained mani and turbine housing)?

For sure, and this was probably me jumping the gun a bit. In the same regard though, I doubt we'll see many as those who are content with sub 400 hp cars (like me) are often easily fans of the ROM tunes as they work.

You can bet however that if I was building big HP car, I'd have a standalone of sorts (and would have forced myself to learn how to tune it)

Originally Posted by jspaeth

Needless to say, I think the biggest difference in why all of your cars put down that extra 20-30 ft-lbs between 4500-7000 and the resulting increase in horsepower is due to

1) The swaining/extrude honing
2) Having a tune done by an expert with a LOT of research done into the timing/fuel for this particular setup.

I am making a similar torque curve as these cars, minus about 20-30 ft-lbs across the board.

I'll agree to that as well, but I also like to think that the Cams are another major reason for this. A tubular manifold car (which most 2871r guys use) should easily make more Peak HP simply due to manifold design (when compared to the stock setup) but even they aren't seeing the power they should.

And in regard to a professional, remember the JWT isn't a reflash, and the Enthalpy simply has a cam program added. I wouldn't say these are any different than what anyone else can buy.

I also do not build these motors loose - I want them to last. If it was an Enduro car I could care less, not a car that needs to be daily reliable (heck he's got nearly 8k on the motor already, i have 20k)

Originally Posted by jspaeth

I am not saying it is EASY or CHEAP to have that setup, but I just don't think that the "big secret" is in the ROM tune.

I agree, but my main objective was to present to the 240 world, how 'well tuned' these ROM setups are in this day and age, and how they will work great for 90% of the cars out there. Nothing boggles my mind more than kids still using SAFC with their DET computers ya know? Heck used JWT/Enthalpy ECU go for 300 bucks...it's a steal!

Originally Posted by jspaeth

That ROM tune surely has seen multiple iterations (at least on your car) of datalogging and refinement to get a timing/fuel map that works so well with your cams/setup

To a point: My car is only on tis' 2nd retune...it made the same power, but gained 15 ft lbs with the retune (and also gained the cam program) His JWT ECU is on the initial/base setup.

(I will be getting the chips soon for a 'meth map' hopefully can increase the boost a bit )


My main objective of this was to show that with the right parts (nothing exotic) that good solid power can be made with either ECU -- that's it.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by s0apgun

CodyAce Dyno Run and NissanDataScan Run Files - Click Here for direct download!

Thank you sir!

[HemiCharger]

It is your setup and what you like but I can tell you have had my swap now for 50 thousand miles and have been running 18.5 lbs of boost with my Power FC for almost 2 years now and I burn no oil nor use any coolant. The power FC is what they would use on the car in Japan at a specialty tuner shop. It can be street tuned unlike a canned tune. You will never be able to get all that there is out of your setup with them no matter what cause they are limited in that regards.

Oh and 400 crank horsepower in our cars is more than enough to smoke crotch rockets...

[4x4le]

Ah, the phone thing, well I really just didnt have the time at that moment and thats why I was on the phone and not the computer. Tapatalk is great and thats what I normally would have used but I was just on the web real quick on my phone killing a few minutes. I didnt plan on posting.

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Oh and 400 crank horsepower in our cars is more than enough to smoke crotch rockets...

No, at least not the guys I know with them. I have hung with some of the slower 600s but they are usually still faster.

[OBEEWON]

Good work Cody.

You want to tune my RB, and use it for an A/C bracket guinea pig??

[j20accord00]

yeah i agree that is great work. Cody is a cool guy, I bought a throw out bearing off him a few months ago! Thanks again..

and i too like the "junk yard 100hp " look on the s13. Where is he located in Jersey?

I gotta get out to some meets and see these cars in person!

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Ah, the phone thing, well I really just didnt have the time at that moment and thats why I was on the phone and not the computer. Tapatalk is great and thats what I normally would have used but I was just on the web real quick on my phone killing a few minutes. I didnt plan on posting.




No, at least not the guys I know with them. I have hung with some of the slower 600s but they are usually still faster.

Then I guess I would just have to forget about the Triumph Daytona or GSX750 I smoked. They pull hard but I broke away with like 3 cars on the GSXR and he could not over take me -- I was having spark blow out at the time with .044 gaped plugs which I have since fixed. Gaped to .028.... which is what they need. My car might be different though. I make mad mid range torque and horsepower. I have a cammed s14 motor with a GT2871R and I kept VTC so my midrange at 3000 rpm is at least 100 hp more than a normal SR s13 motor. My tuner over laid the graphs when we tuned it. I make around 80-100 whp more than a comparable s13 motor up till I reach peak where they end up the same. I think the mid range matters a lot?

[mattsil80wis]

Originally Posted by j20accord00

yeah i agree that is great work. Cody is a cool guy, I bought a throw out bearing off him a few months ago! Thanks again..

and i too like the "junk yard 100hp " look on the s13. Where is he located in Jersey?

I gotta get out to some meets and see these cars in person!

sorry i didnt answer before

i live in hackensack nj but currently i live in stroudsburg pa with cody

if you wanna make a trip tonight to see the cars there is a local meet by us
PM me for details

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Then I guess I would just have to forget about the Triumph Daytona or GSX750 I smoked. They pull hard but I broke away with like 3 cars on the GSXR and he could not over take me -- I was having spark blow out at the time with .044 gaped plugs which I have since fixed. Gaped to .028.... which is what they need. My car might be different though. I make mad mid range torque and horsepower. I have a cammed s14 motor with a GT2871R and I kept VTC so my midrange at 3000 rpm is at least 100 hp more than a normal SR s13 motor. My tuner over laid the graphs when we tuned it. I make around 80-100 whp more than a comparable s13 motor up till I reach peak where they end up the same. I think the mid range matters a lot?

i've said it once, i'll say it again:

GAPPED = spark plugs

GAPED = butt plugs

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

i've said it once, i'll say it again:

GAPPED = spark plugs

GAPED = butt plugs

alright then GAPPED.....

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Then I guess I would just have to forget about the Triumph Daytona or GSX750 I smoked. They pull hard but I broke away with like 3 cars on the GSXR and he could not over take me -- I was having spark blow out at the time with .044 gaped plugs which I have since fixed. Gaped to .028.... which is what they need. My car might be different though. I make mad mid range torque and horsepower. I have a cammed s14 motor with a GT2871R and I kept VTC so my midrange at 3000 rpm is at least 100 hp more than a normal SR s13 motor. My tuner over laid the graphs when we tuned it. I make around 80-100 whp more than a comparable s13 motor up till I reach peak where they end up the same. I think the mid range matters a lot?

you have a "cammed" S14 motor, but kept VTC...what does that mean?

You have aftermarket VTC cams? Who even makes them? (I have never heard of it, that's why I ask)

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

you have a "cammed" S14 motor, but kept VTC...what does that mean?

You have aftermarket VTC cams? Who even makes them? (I have never heard of it, that's why I ask)

Greddy Easycams

Greddy - Founded and Driven by Racers

I keep the VTC on the intake cam and it makes for some extra mid range punch. Lower duration than most other aftermarket cams so you do not get the top end of the other aftermarket cams but they are nice and no after market valve train is needed. I made 334whp/311TQ on them and I like em a lot.