Touge Factory K-series Swap Kit

[Def]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

I really hope Touge Factory wouldn't go through all the trouble of designing and fabricating the parts for this swap and sell an oil pan that isn't going to work and leads to everyone blowing their engines that uses it.

Now if they're still testing the oil pan on their car, they shouldn't be selling these pans to customers already without verifying they're going to work.

You act like they're some giant OEM with engineering and quality standards like Toyota or Honda... (not sure modern day Nissan has those things...)

It's a "speed shop" that has somebody who can make shapes in CAD and get them machined/fabricated. I'm sure they'll test the stuff to some degree, but let's be real on who TF is and what sort of process control and validation they're bringing to this product...

[signalpuke]

Neat.

Originally Posted by collegekid

I'm very interested in the true max limit on what the stock block can actually hold reliably. I see some people hit high numbers on the dyno but for how long.

D-Rob on K20A.org has a ton of daily drivers that he's dyno'd. From 450-800+ WHP. Bone stock engines for the most part, but he also did some elaborate tunes on built engines and superchargers. It's all in the tuning. The K-series engines are special because they have active cam phasing. It's like an adjustable cam gear controlled by the ECU that you can tune. This is why the K-series Honda engines have so much torque and can carry it to a higher RPM resulting in more HP. With boost, it's like having the perfect intake cam at every 100RPM for the boost and speed of the engine at that exact time. Honda calls it VTC. It's on the intake cam only. VTEC is for longer duration and higher lift for the valves.

I went more in depth to it here for the Supra guys, and linked back to a forum I used to Admin for more in depth explanation of how it all works.
https://www.supraforums.com/threads/...530737/page-40

Not all K-series engines have the same VTC and VTEC setups, so if you're actually curious about the limits per head, or engine differences in general, check out the FAQ/DIY compilation I put together here:
https://www.k20a.org/threads/diy-faq...diy-faq.53589/

Originally Posted by jedi03

with the k motors have they gone to a closed or semi closed deck? if not then the continued risk of cylinder warp/walk still exists...

They're not 30 year old D-series designs. The biggest issue for road course/auto-x/drifting is going to be oil related, and all that requires is a baffle. The capacity of the OEM oil pan isn't an issue.

[tuzzio]

[QUOTE=signalpuke;6367510]check out the FAQ/DIY compilation I put together here:
https://www.k20a.org/threads/diy-faq...diy-faq.53589/
/QUOTE]

The internet needs more stuff like this. I don't own or likely won't own a K-series, and nerds like me still read / love this shit.

[signalpuke]

Originally Posted by tuzzio

The internet needs more stuff like this. I don't own or likely won't own a K-series, and nerds like me still read / love this shit.

I agree. Unfortunately, when Vertical Scope bought the forum they ruined it by switching from VBulletin to XenForo. Now it's pretty dead.
This is a link to the forced induction section though, so people can search around in there. https://www.k20a.org/forums/forced-i...discussion.18/
Basically if you're planning on anything less than 700hp the only thing you need to upgrade are valve springs and retainers, and injectors that will flow enough of whatever fuel you choose to use. The engines you're going to want are the K20A2, K20Z3, or K24A2, as they have the best internals. There are differences like throttle body (DBW on the Z3) and different intake manifolds.

[foreverdeath]

Originally Posted by signalpuke

I agree. Unfortunately, when Vertical Scope bought the forum they ruined it by switching from VBulletin to XenForo. Now it's pretty dead.
This is a link to the forced induction section though, so people can search around in there. https://www.k20a.org/forums/forced-i...discussion.18/
Basically if you're planning on anything less than 700hp the only thing you need to upgrade are valve springs and retainers, and injectors that will flow enough of whatever fuel you choose to use. The engines you're going to want are the K20A2, K20Z3, or K24A2, as they have the best internals. There are differences like throttle body (DBW on the Z3) and different intake manifolds.

Seriously up to 700hp? I was sad when my first k24a2 went at ~400hp at 14psi on e85. It just slightly tweaked a rod thinking I was good up to 500whp. Is there a verified torque limit on stock rods cause that's were me and some other people thing I went wrong cause I was probably past 350ftlbs.

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[signalpuke]

Originally Posted by foreverdeath

Seriously up to 700hp? I was sad when my first k24a2 went at ~400hp at 14psi on e85. It just slightly tweaked a rod thinking I was good up to 500whp. Is there a verified torque limit on stock rods cause that's were me and some other people thing I went wrong cause I was probably past 350ftlbs.

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It's all in the tuning. A lot of tuners will just tune WOT and not bother tuning each VTC table on both VTEC tables, not to mention part throttle. Customers also don't want to pay for good tuning either. Could have also been due to a sensor failure. I grenaded an engine because the O2 sensor failed.
Normal car, you just tune one table for WOT.
For the K-series, you have to tune 12 (VTC 0°, 10°, 20°, 30°, 40°, 50° for both non-VTEC and VTEC). That's just for WOT because at WOT the ECU is in openloop.
Tuning part throttle closed loop tables takes longer, but the tables are interpolated and you can use averaging to speed up the process.
Tuning 0° VTC is important because that's what the OEM ECU (with K-pro) will use if you throw a code and are restricted to limp mode.
Hondata has a recommended process on their site if memory serves.

EDIT
Yes, they still have it up. From my post on SF

If you are interested in learning how the VTC/VVTi tuning is done you can watch the videos here on Hondata's website
http://www.hondata.com/techk-protraining.html


Further reading on how VTC/VVTi work can be read here:

Good break down of how the engine and tuning software defines VTC.
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14642

I broke down the Honda VTC system here, and explained how it affects the compression ratio of the motor.
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=30690

[foreverdeath]

I'm running haltech witch doesnt allow for 12 tables. I'm running 6 tables(0, 10, 20...50) then vtec is any rpm above 3199. My tuner solely adjusted WOT but I adjusted fuel to match target AFRs and left ignition timing stock.

My theory of what when wrong tho is when I enabled flex feul the it was adding 3 degrees down low and the default map and put me past the torque limit of the rods.

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[signalpuke]

Originally Posted by foreverdeath

I left ignition timing stock.

That's what blew your motor. My brother tunes a lot, all different ECUs and setups, and he said his rule of thumb is 2° retarded per psi.

[foreverdeath]

We left it stock outa boost only pulling timing in vaccum outa vtec. Timing was pulled in boost and the runner stopped at 12psi on pump cause he didnt like how noisy the motor was.

Then for adding e85 I pulled 1 deg per 2 psi past 12psi on the main map and turned on flex fuel. I was tunning e85 fuel myself and was gonna go in to get timing worked out. At 13.5 psi the injectors where maxed nearing 92% and I stopped there. I wasnt getting any knock so I assumed the 3 to 1 degree timing (default haltech map cut down by 60% iirc) added for flex fuel was fine. After about week the rod bent and I got knock.

I tunned the fuel my self cuase my tunner doesnt like tuning all the individual cam angles. He tells me I do need cam angle maps for both fuel and ign. I've been thinking about taking it to someone else.

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[jedi03]

ya take it elsewhere, someone who doesn't want to do a complete tune doesn't care...both tunes I have done they checked full RPM range and under light and heavy throttle, then double checked everything was good all the way through to ensure there was no knock, afrs were good etc...

[Def]

At the very least he should have done WOT sweeps at different locked cam angles to at least ensure that's tuned across a couple of different boost levels. Partial throttle VCT tuning is pretty easy to do on the street and near impossible on a non-load bearing dyno, so I can see how a tuner would recommend doing the low load stuff on the street where it's very easy and safe (or advocate that he'll do it via street tuning for a fee that is less than full on dyno rental).

Now, if someone only wants a completely tuned turbo VCT/VTEC engine tuned for like $200-300, then obviously that's going to be some best guesses on VCT angles, and tuning off VTEC and on VTEC at a couple of boost levels with at best some quick smoothing between it. And hopefully the engine will go down to idle well and not drive like complete crap at partial throttle...

[foreverdeath]

I was confident doing all but boost ignition tables. I let my tuner do the final WOT runs and figure out the cam angles. It just weird how he thinks k series only needs one fuel and ign map. I later extrapolated the fuel maps to fill the gaps for better drivability. In theory if the VTC action was instant and always at the target angle I could see it but it never is. I could never find any info on how VTC effects ignition timing which involves effective compression as cylinder filling is dynamic with VTC.

Once I get some money together I'll go back to have individual cam tables tunned on pump then back again for e85.

The more I think about it was safe but never optimal the way he running it and was being stupid when I can to adding timing with e85. I never saw knock but I think I just over came the torque of factory rods. Next tune I will limit to 350ftlbs.

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[Def]

It's very easy to smoke stuff by passing MBT on E85, since it won't knock like pump gas. You generate a ton more cylinder pressure when you push your peak combustion pressure prior to or right around TDC. Normally it's around 15-20 deg after TDC so that your cylinder volume is rapidly expanding and you don't do a bunch of negative work pushing down on the piston when it's still coming up.

So your cylinder pressures could have been really high for the torque output of the engine. I've seen a lot of 4G63 guys do this since they like to run crazy boost and timing to put up high dyno numbers. If you get someone used to pump gas tuning, that then goes to E85 and keeps being amazed at how much crazy timing they can add in, well, usually the rods cry out since it's a gradual pressure input, not like a hard hitting knock that can break pistons.

Sounds like you got really aggressive with your timing in boost, and factory rods will let go quickly.

[foreverdeath]

Originally Posted by Def

It's very easy to smoke stuff by passing MBT on E85, since it won't knock like pump gas. You generate a ton more cylinder pressure when you push your peak combustion pressure prior to or right around TDC. Normally it's around 15-20 deg after TDC so that your cylinder volume is rapidly expanding and you don't do a bunch of negative work pushing down on the piston when it's still coming up.

So your cylinder pressures could have been really high for the torque output of the engine. I've seen a lot of 4G63 guys do this since they like to run crazy boost and timing to put up high dyno numbers. If you get someone used to pump gas tuning, that then goes to E85 and keeps being amazed at how much crazy timing they can add in, well, usually the rods cry out since it's a gradual pressure input, not like a hard hitting knock that can break pistons.

Sounds like you got really aggressive with your timing in boost, and factory rods will let go quickly.

I got a week driving the piss outa it with amazing acceleration in 4th when it would finally stick. till I got a knock noise [emoji23] Still dont know what the actull knocking is coming from.

I've never been comfortable tuning timing and I went with this haltechs default on flex let at nearly 1bar. I think I cut this map by 30% this is default show here. Adding 9degrees in the center which is just before my turbo spooled and vtec kicks on. Max torque was at 4k

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[signalpuke]

Originally Posted by Def

Now, if someone only wants a completely tuned turbo VCT/VTEC engine tuned for like $200-300

Not going to happen. Not during working hours anyway. My brother does this for longtime or big customers that don't need the car for long periods of time, but more as a favor for saving him time in the shop. He will drive the car between the shop and his home while datalogging (after doing all the WOT stuff on the dyno and getting a rough tune on it) and then edit the tables when he's reached his destination. That's the only cost effective way for the customer to get a good partial throttle full tune unless they're willing to put in the time to do it theirself.
The good K-series tuners (and any other engine that has variable valve lift/duration AND cam phasing) either don't fully understand the dynamics of the engine and only tune drag queens, or they're very generous with their time and don't fully understand their own worth of knowledge.
Pretty sure the norm is the former, and the average customer would not pony up for the latter to pay them a fair wage for their time.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Def

It's very easy to smoke stuff by passing MBT on E85, since it won't knock like pump gas. You generate a ton more cylinder pressure when you push your peak combustion pressure prior to or right around TDC. Normally it's around 15-20 deg after TDC so that your cylinder volume is rapidly expanding and you don't do a bunch of negative work pushing down on the piston when it's still coming up.

So your cylinder pressures could have been really high for the torque output of the engine. I've seen a lot of 4G63 guys do this since they like to run crazy boost and timing to put up high dyno numbers. If you get someone used to pump gas tuning, that then goes to E85 and keeps being amazed at how much crazy timing they can add in, well, usually the rods cry out since it's a gradual pressure input, not like a hard hitting knock that can break pistons.

Sounds like you got really aggressive with your timing in boost, and factory rods will let go quickly.

This is the truth^. Whalen Speed sees a lot of sketchy timing maps from cars that are "tuned" on E85 because of this.

[dbeiler]

Originally Posted by foreverdeath

I was confident doing all but boost ignition tables. I let my tuner do the final WOT runs and figure out the cam angles. It just weird how he thinks k series only needs one fuel and ign map. I later extrapolated the fuel maps to fill the gaps for better drivability. In theory if the VTC action was instant and always at the target angle I could see it but it never is. I could never find any info on how VTC effects ignition timing which involves effective compression as cylinder filling is dynamic with VTC.

Once I get some money together I'll go back to have individual cam tables tunned on pump then back again for e85.

The more I think about it was safe but never optimal the way he running it and was being stupid when I can to adding timing with e85. I never saw knock but I think I just over came the torque of factory rods. Next tune I will limit to 350ftlbs.

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You can watch a live dyno tune of an NA bolt-on K20 if you purchase the "Practical Reflash Tuning" course from hpacademy.com. One of the course modules, "Step 5-A: Optimising Individual Cam Maps and Optimising Cam Target Map" has a live demonstration of the fuel and ignition timing adjustments being made via Hondata Kpro. I highly recommend the HPacademy courses. Worth every penny.

[signalpuke]

Since K20a is broken now, I'll post the dyno sheets from this thread here for you guys so you can get an idea of what to expect. Only saved some of them, from this list. You can click on the power numbers on this thread and be taken to the user's build thread if it exists:
https://www.k20a.org/threads/highest...-series.61634/

2.

3.

6.

8.

9.

10.

11.

12.

[thegr8one013]

anybody here used their kit yet?

[jedi03]

those are ridiculous numbers and that looked like a stock internal setup?

[Initial Drift]

Man that harness is so fucking nice. I need to learn that skill.

[TheRealSy90]

So what's the powersteering solution for the K series? Someone going to make a bolt in column kit like the K-Miata column?

[foreverdeath]

The kseries power steering pump works well. Although its factory mounting location dosent work with most manifold options. I have a bracket in the works for it just haven't got a billet piece made. Need to judge desire before actually trying to make a run of parts as CNC is expensive for just a few pieces.


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[TheRealSy90]

I keep coming back to wanting this swap and selling my current vq35hr swap.

Just added up all the Togue Factory swap parts and other parts they recommend to change as well. 7,800 before shipping and still need an Engine, Transmission, Fuel supply components, Turbo, engine management and miscellaneous parts plus fabrication (exhaust etc.).

There's no way I could finish that swap for under 12 grand and thats still a STOCK engine internally. FML.

[foreverdeath]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

I keep coming back to wanting this swap and selling my current vq35hr swap.

Just added up all the Togue Factory swap parts and other parts they recommend to change as well. 7,800 before shipping and still need an Engine, Transmission, Fuel supply components, Turbo, engine management and miscellaneous parts plus fabrication (exhaust etc.).

There's no way I could finish that swap for under 12 grand and thats still a STOCK engine internally. FML.

That's insane. They want 1050 just for a the drive shaft. Makes me really wish I had a garage to I could produce a my own swap kit. What components are you looking at some of their components are a deal like the 750$ oil pan setup but a 1050$ driveshaft is straight rape. The BMW ZF looks appealing for its size, price, and weight when compared to strength. But parts to make it work and other stuff that needs to be done (speed academy replacing bits) makes the CD00x trannys seem equal other then their size.

Also I do not recommend using a coolant adapter with out a swirl pot. Adding coolant at the top point of the system makes bleeding coolant instant vs seemingly impossible.

What parts are you looking at with the price?

[TheRealSy90]

That was with all of their K swap parts as well as their miscellaneous recommended upgrade parts like the oil pump, windage tray, chain tensioner and some gaskets etc.

[RalliartRsX]

As I said, give or take, any properly done swap (although 1050 is INSANE for a driveshaft) is netting you about 10K in itself.

I can have a VET in the 240 for cheaper knowing what I know today, but like every swap, they will nickle and dime you to no end. Wiring harness is several hundred. A proper ECU is 1K+. A driveshaft, think 3-500. Fab work; 5-1000. Etc etc.

That is what adds up.

[TheRealSy90]

Or stick with an sr20 for way less lol.

[RalliartRsX]

SRs pull a premium before race wars!

[foreverdeath]

Out of curiosity I went a priced out a swap thru TF to see what the cost would be and were one could save by deviating.

$1695 swap kit inc: oil pans setup, mounts, subframe spacers, bell housing adapter

-Note 9 their oil pan is not Tapped. I would recommend welding a steel bung to the timing chain tensioner cover, as with their setup the a bung on the oil pan would be below the oil line in the pan.

$1049 flywheel and throw out bearing setup
$597 ACT BMW ZF org full face clutch

-Note 1a for $2280 gets you a Inline Pro adapter plate a Z33/34 and Clutch Masters twin disc clutch vs ~$2145 (depending on clutch) with TF for a ACT stage clutch. I paid $2200 to Collins as it was the only kit out at the time for the CD00x with a single plate clutch (came with an ebay VQ stage 3). HIGHY DO NOT RECOMEND DOING BUSINESS WITH HIM. FYI those adapter fly wheels are heavy AF for billet aluminum, I swear mine weight ~25lbs.

$1049 driveshaft, has the funky front joint for a BMW trans. Order tab has you fill out chassis and abs/non-abs but then asks for driveshaft lentgh????

-Note 1b for the cost of this drive shaft you could have bought a used CD009 and a shaft masters cd009 240sx alumium drive shaft is only $400.

$180 TF shifter bolts directly to floor where boot would to go.
$69.95 shifter selector rod

-Note 1c shifter kits for the cd009 start at $250

$85 K24/k20 swivle neck Tstat housing.

-Note 2 This is not needed and would do not recommend threw personnel testing. If you do get it, absolutely do not bolt this directly to the water pump housing! This setup puts the wax pellet out of the stream of the coolant bypass as it puts the bypass flow into the lower radiator hose. With just carefully enlarging the the OEM Tstat mount holes you can get the lower radiator outlet to face down for FREE.99.

$174 K24 upper water neck adapter

-Note 3 this is a TracTuff adapter you can barely see the logo in picture 2. What you don't get buying it from TF is OPTIONS. I highly recommend at a minimum is to order it from TracTuff and get the 30$ option for a bleed port to be welded on. This motor is nearly impossible to bleed with out a high point spot to bleed it. Even better would be to order a swirl pot giving you a high fill port and effort less cooling system maintenance. I paid a Nice 420$ for mine but I also added 2 1/2 NPT bungs for a maximum effectiveness. First a bung up top to aid in the bleeding of the heater core while cleaning up plumbing and secondly a bung on the bottom for coolant bypass simplifying the intake manifold install/removal.



$499 Kmiata intake, no complaints looking it over. Qreat budget option unless looking for max power or want to go DBW then I would suggest going for a Skunk2 Ultra intake for slightly more.

$1095 Turbo manifiold (Vband only)

ENGINE BITS
$197 K20 50 deg VTC

-Note 4 you can get one of these from the junkyard for a bout 20$ can easliy find the PR3 (IIRC) version on the base model RSX

$199.95 K20 RSX oil pump.

-Note 5 if running K24 Block will need to be notched to fit block.

$33 K20 windage tray

- Note 6 5$ from junkyard found on most RSXs.

$13 K20 oil pump guide

$97.90 OEM tensioner

- Note 7 is recommend to replace common failure item especially with some aftermarket cams. many aftermarket tensioners out there some say aftermarkets do more harm then good stretching chains faster. Considering this these are 2 parts you want to add. 1 K20z3 upper timing guide ~$20 its longer and pervents the cams from jumping in a failure. 2 lower aftermarket timing chain guard which prevents the chain from jumping on the crank $30-50 depending on brand.

External engine parts

$29.95 7 rib belt
$190 "JDM" k24a2 idler pulley
-Note 8 part is not JDM also cam on USDM EP3 could be had at junkyard for 15$. alternatively you can order a billet pulley with belt for $161.99 from Ktuned
$165 Radium Rail with basic fittings

Total before tax and shipping $7518 for a 6spd ZF setup, no power steering

Now this does not included a down pipe, Ecu, wiring Turbo, Wastegate, BOV, intercooler setup, transmission, cooling hose setup, and odds and ends but this is the basics.

Now tallying up my notes the total with a twin disc CD00x setup including a 76$ GKtech trans mount minus transmission(might need a mount meant for a 2JZ engine tho) and 226$ Ktuned PS relocation kit (although idk if it would fit their with oil pan) would be $6326

Anyway you do it this swap it will cost a minimum of 9k to be Turbo and that's if you DIY your wiring, exhaust, coolant plumbing, and intercooler. I Balled out with stuff like twin scroll, DBW, Haltech 1500 while making everything from scratch and still totaled out to around 11k-12k.